Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Sam M

Are there any owners who can recommend a used model based on the below? I've seen some ranging from £6k but understand it is an old battery model so therefore lower range.

If I buy direct from a garage they will fit the home charge for free but the models start from approx £10k.

My criteria:

600 miles per month, 8000p.a. mileage - own driveway.

Would ideally like to purchase a used model with some warranty left for peace of mind.

Would appreciate advice as I would love to buy an EV for my next car, I have 2 small children (no push chairs needed), but like the idea of efficiency and saving costs.

Many thanks

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - sandy56

Why not try the Owners club and forums. Also check the many USA sites, as they have an active community forum as well. Google can find lots of them.

Whatever used ev car you buy make sure you get a battery check by a main dealer, BEFORE you proceed.

Good luck.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Pitfulls and downsides:

This is likely to be quite an old model, and as such the battery capacity is both lower to start with (older tech), and also means the useful shelf-life of the battery pack is much reduced, meaning you could get very little mileage between charges (especially in winter) and may even have to shell out several £0000s for a new battery pack.

The gen-1 car (if it is one) has, if I reccall correctly, poor battery cooling, adding to the problems of the battery packs at that age. YouTuber (and Aussie equivalent of Honest John) John Cadogan has covered this car's list of woes in far more detail - check out his videos on the subject generally and this issue specifically. Obviously overheating is worse Down Under because of the hotter climate, but I suspect is still is an issue back in the UK.

You would need to install a 7kW specialist charger unit at home. I'm unsure if the delaership would pay that cost, which is not insignificant, but it could mean they are selling you a REALLY early model of car and are essentially putting the full cost of installing a home charger on top. Worth checking the car they are looking to sell you against those being sold elsewhere at dealerships not doing this deal and privately (making the appropriate alloance for that lower price for buying privately). Using a standard 230V socket means that it would take more than overnight to recharge the car.

Nissan after the tie-up with Renault has gone downhill in terms of general reliability and customer service (with some exceptions). I would be wary about buying one nowadays (I used to own a mid 90s Micra from 1998 - 2006), especially as their cars grow more complex.

Bear in mind that this car was their first effort at an EV. rarely to first generation efforts at new tech work brilliantly.

You could source a much newer petrol-engined car for that money which would have a realtively clean engine. You also wouldn't have to worry about range, finding a suitable charging point or sorting an overnight charging facility at home. For some makes, like KIA (7yrs), Hyundai and Toyota (5yrs), you may find that a car with a FSH from main dealers would still have 1-3 years of warranty left, more than the 1yr you'd likely only get with the older Leaf if bought through a main dealer. It's likely that the EV battery would be out of warranty or very near to as well.

You could also buy a cheaper petrol car and still save compared to the Leaf if all costs were factored in, as long as you went for a basic car with a reliable, easy to maintain engine/setup. Even more so if the likely cost of new batteries/a whole pack replacement is taken into account.

Ironically, the 1.2T petrol engine aside, Nissan's own (now no longer sold new in the UK) Pulsar, very close in styling and size to the Leaf might've been a good bet, as it is very roomy, if dull to drive. I remember just a couple or so years ago brand new ones going for £12k on car broker websites.

For your usage, I'd rather stick to something like the KIA Ceed/Hyundai i30, Toyota Auris for cars possibly still in warranty, or a Honda Civic 1.4/1.8 or Mazda3 Petrol for ones just outside warranty. This would be especially true if you wanted an automatic. For manual cars, other makes such as Skodas and SEATs and even Fords (non-turbocharged engine versions) might do.

IMHO, EVs are for people with money as they can bite you proverbially in the bum if the battery pack fails or drops its range when they age, especially early generation cars like the Leaf mk1. Note also that charging points still aren't that easy to find and as EVs become more popular, may have queues to use or you may find some break and you are stuck or have to wait ages. Newer EVs don't take to long to charge, but that would cost you a small fortune to buy one in comparison.

They are still very much a 'fashion item'. Even hybrids will have similar (though not as bad) downsides, as their battery packs would have degraded as well and often provide little usefulness in their older age. It often depends on how they were used during their previous ownership, which you probably won't know about. Too much a risk to me for the buyer on a budget. If you couldn't affor a new battery pack, then the car would be almost worthless and you would lose a LOT of money if you sold it.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - madf

Batteries are usually leased - you pa a monthly charge. But if it fails, It is replaced. FOC I believe

If you own the batteries, no lease to pay but £4 to £5k for a new one.

Beware of this : price comparisons get screwed if you compare leased with purchased battery cars. ENSURE you know...Second hand prices are skewed because of it..

I understand battery life is not very great - if true I wouuld not buy a battery but lease...

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Batteries are usually leased - you pa a monthly charge. But if it fails, It is replaced. FOC I believe

If you own the batteries, no lease to pay but £4 to £5k for a new one.

Beware of this : price comparisons get screwed if you compare leased with purchased battery cars. ENSURE you know...Second hand prices are skewed because of it..

I understand battery life is not very great - if true I wouuld not buy a battery but lease...

Are the EV batteries leased on all EV cars? I relaise some are, but I didn't think they all were. Hybrid cars aren't, even PHEVs, and their battery packs still cost a lot to replace. I made my comment before as I saw on a video on YT from John Cadogan regarding EV/hybrid battery replacement how much of a rip off it was - maybe it was just concerning hybrids rather than EVs, maybe leasing in only in Europe.

Leasing I suppose would (if kept at the same rate or at most uprated by inflation only) help owners in later years of ownership (especially if they bought second hand), but still that must amount to a considerable figure, given the cost of the batteries themselves, never mind the fitting costs.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - gordonbennet

What cost saving when the govt of the day impose fuel duty replacement taxes on electricity for EV's.

There's good reason 'smart meters' are being more aggressively pushed, how long before it will be threats to comply, then compulsory.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - oldroverboy.

What cost saving when the govt of the day impose fuel duty replacement taxes on electricity for EV's.

There's good reason 'smart meters' are being more aggressively pushed, how long before it will be threats to comply, then compulsory.

Never mind GB by then my calculator says I can Push off to a tax friendlier abode..

2 years 6 months and counting down..

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Chris M

BBC TV News yesterday ran a piece on the growing demand for the raw materials needed for all these batteries. They focused on cobalt which is apparently in plentiful supply deep on the ocean floor. Trouble is getting it to the surface without destroying the sea bed.

We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt. It winds me up that EVs are portrayed as "green" when they still take as much energy and raw materials as an IC car to manufacture and still pollute with brake dust and tyre wear etc.

Edited by Chris M on 14/11/2019 at 08:59

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Andrew-T

We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt.

Those industrial-scale bottom trawlers are doing what they can. And there is a fair number of wrecked ships lying about in some parts.

Edited by Andrew-T on 14/11/2019 at 09:26

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - alan1302

BBC TV News yesterday ran a piece on the growing demand for the raw materials needed for all these batteries. They focused on cobalt which is apparently in plentiful supply deep on the ocean floor. Trouble is getting it to the surface without destroying the sea bed.

We are well on our way to destroying the surface of our planet and now we're heading for the one bit we have so far left unspoilt. It winds me up that EVs are portrayed as "green" when they still take as much energy and raw materials as an IC car to manufacture and still pollute with brake dust and tyre wear etc.

They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission...so don't get wond up.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - retgwte

Plenty of YouTube channels dedicated to this car, watch some of them and ask in the comments section.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Chris M

"They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission..."

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

My guess is that the batteries are far from good for the environment, not just from what it takes to manufacture them, but what's going to happen when they are no longer able to hold a charge? Will they be recycled effectively or dumped somewhere out of sight in the third world just like some of our current recycled waste.

If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - badbusdriver

"They are 'greener' than petrol/diesel cars - and fuel can be zero emission..."

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

I have certainly read articles that say over their whole life they are already greener than I/C cars, and as technology advances, they will only get more so. Sadly, due to lack of storage space, i tend to bin (recycle!) magazines i have read pretty quickly, so i can't tell you exactly what magazine it was. Bear in mind that the batteries, once they are too far gone to power a car, can and are used for other less demanding needs. Also, a good portion of the battery for an electric car can, in itself, be recycled.

If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.

Not neccessarily, with the way modern cars are being designed as 'throw away' items, and with most manufacturers not having a vested interest in keeping them on the road long term in order to get customers into new models. The combination of that along with all this new technology (which will all have a limited time before becoming obsolete) means that cars made within the last decade or so, by and large, going to be less viable at 10 years plus than those made in the previous 2 decades.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy
If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.

Not neccessarily, with the way modern cars are being designed as 'throw away' items, and with most manufacturers not having a vested interest in keeping them on the road long term in order to get customers into new models. The combination of that along with all this new technology (which will all have a limited time before becoming obsolete) means that cars made within the last decade or so, by and large, going to be less viable at 10 years plus than those made in the previous 2 decades.

Bear in mind that other than the electric motor and batteries, an EV is essentially identical to an ICE car, which means it'll suffer exactly the same (or worse, given they are heavier [suspension]) age-realted failures and corrosion over time.

On modern ICE cars, the engine is normally the bit that lasts the longest for 'standard' cars, as long as they are looked after. Admitedly new tech like dual clutch tranmissions have been a weak spot, hence why most people now say stick to manuals or proven auto tech.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Andrew-T

<< On modern ICE cars, >>

We are becoming over-acronymised (to invent an ugly word). Here it is easy to decide between the internal combustion engine and in-car entertainment, but perhaps the Twitter habit may be taking hold? (146 characters or whatever it is ....)

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

<< On modern ICE cars, >>

We are becoming over-acronymised (to invent an ugly word). Here it is easy to decide between the internal combustion engine and in-car entertainment, but perhaps the Twitter habit may be taking hold? (146 characters or whatever it is ....)

We could always refer to in-car entertainment as 'the stereo' as we always used to. Having to type 'internal combustion engine' three or four times in a post (yes, copy 'n' paste the other three) just takes longer. Beside, we know the difference in context when the acronymn is used for each reason. That first term is something our American friends would probably use. :-)

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - alan1302

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.

Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.

The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - alan1302

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.

Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.

The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.

The electric car is better from an environmental point of view - no matter what:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4687

I you buy a Nissan Leaf for £25k or a petrol car for £25k the Nissan Leaf will have lower costs.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Sofa Spud

Looking to the future when some early electric cars are entering the 'old banger' stage when they're 10 -12 years old - even if their batteries have lost a third of their range or even half, they'll still be useful as cheap runabouts. I also expect that in due course cheaper after-market replacement batteries will become available for old electric cars - perhaps with less range than the original but ideal for budget motoring of the future.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Are they? Serious question. As they drive along yes, but what about the whole life cost?

Yes, they are better - plenty of research has been done on it and shows electric cars are better over the life of the vehicle and a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well.

Not necessarily - it depends upon the mix of electricity production that goes into recharging the batteries over its lifetime, and battery components are very energy/labour intensive to recycle. It also depends upon the car's usage (of both types), both in terms of raw mileage and the mix of urban and non-urban driving, because it significantly affects the efficiency and pollutant levels of the ICE cars.

The financial cost takes a LONG time to recoup, and currently is a lot less than it should be because of subsidies for both EVs AND 'greener' forms of energy production, which means you pay for it (admitedly shared between all of us taxpayers) through general taxation. This means that EVs bought mainly by the more affluent are being subsidised by everyone, the poor included.

The electric car is better from an environmental point of view - no matter what:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4687

I you buy a Nissan Leaf for £25k or a petrol car for £25k the Nissan Leaf will have lower costs.

£25k gets you a LOT of ICE car. I could pick up a similar sized new car for £16k. That means I'd have to save £9k more on electricity and servicing of the EV (yes, it does need it and does have wear and tear items, including suspension, brakes, electronics, wipers, etc) than on servicing and fuel for the ICE car. That's also assuming the battery on the EV doesn't go pop and you have to shell out £0000s outside of its warranty or have to spend £00+ per month on rental of the batteries.

The cost of 'fuel' is lower, sure, but over its ownership period if that's up to 10 years, or more? Besides, as I said, EVs are still subsidised. And don't forget the capital and maintenance cost of setting up a home charger and taxation for public ones (more subsidies).

And that 'report' (I would never believe just one report, especially not a worldwide peer-reviewed one) cannot say 100% how the electricity is produced, what happens if its all from coal? Not saying it would be, but it varies from country to country and electricity supplier to supplier in the UK. And, as I said before, 'green electricity production is ALSO heavily subsidised by us taxpayers.

And what happens if the sun isn't shining or the wind is blowing, say, in winter at 9pm? No green electricity available, all fossil fuels or nuclear (which many greenies don't consider to be environmentally friendly, although I think its fine, done properly/safely).

Besides, my current car (bigger than the Leaf) costs me way less than £1k pa as I do low mileage. If I did 25k miles (and a lot of town driving) pa, then perhaps I'd consider a hybrid.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 15/11/2019 at 20:37

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Chris M

"a lot of the battery parts can be recycled as well."

Can or will?

A lot of the household plastics we get at present can be recycled but they aren't because it's either too expensive or there isn't a market for the recycled material. Our legislators only look as far forward as the next election and the manufacturers will only do enough to meet regulations. I wish I could believe there won't be a pile of battery nasties somewhere which nobody wants in years to come.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - badbusdriver

A lot of the household plastics we get at present can be recycled but they aren't because it's either too expensive or there isn't a market for the recycled material.

The main reason for that is because it isn't really viable to recycle very small items, as the energy needed to do so would far outweigh the 'greenness' of recycling, so not really comparable.

Here is a link to a page on the 'how stuff works' website answering the question on whether or not EV batteries can be recycled,

auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-...m

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - gordonbennet

Do people think electricity charges for EV are going to stay at current (hoho) levels once enough people have made the swap?

The political parties are promising (politicians promises but people insist on trusting them still, amazing) more freebies from the Croydon money trees, surely even the most blinkered can see that when enough fuel and VED duty is lost due to EVs that a whole new taxing system will be put in place...the pieces are being moved into place, be simple to tax public charging points and arguably simpler to read your home smart meter.

Just don't be tempted purely on the present cost of charging, unless you can quite reasonably find a bargain and take advantage of present power that doesn't have a fuel duty tax imposed, i'd be wary of long term changeover paying out tens of thousands of pounds just yet.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Exactly. Remember the last time politicians persuaded motorists to change their buying habits - to dump perfectly good petrol-engined cars for diesels, whatever the usage pattern, 'to save the planet'? How well did that turn out?

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - madf

I want to save the planet as much as anyone.

I walk 25 miles a week and drive a 7 year old car which I intend to keep for at least another 10 years..

Buying new cars fules destroying the planet...

There is a new plant in Belgium (?) starting to recycle Li-ion batteries... Very high tech...

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - corax
There is a new plant in Belgium (?) starting to recycle Li-ion batteries... Very high tech...

Fortum in Finland?

www.fortum.com/products-and-services/fortum-batter...g

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - alan1302

Do people think electricity charges for EV are going to stay at current (hoho) levels once enough people have made the swap?

The political parties are promising (politicians promises but people insist on trusting them still, amazing) more freebies from the Croydon money trees, surely even the most blinkered can see that when enough fuel and VED duty is lost due to EVs that a whole new taxing system will be put in place...the pieces are being moved into place, be simple to tax public charging points and arguably simpler to read your home smart meter.

Just don't be tempted purely on the present cost of charging, unless you can quite reasonably find a bargain and take advantage of present power that doesn't have a fuel duty tax imposed, i'd be wary of long term changeover paying out tens of thousands of pounds just yet.

Will electricity stay at the current levels for charging - no, probably not.

Tax often changes how it's collected - it's likely to need to in the future.

If they taxed via the smart meters why would that be bad? Those that use most pay most...surely fairest?

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Terry W

EVs only seem to make any real sense today if::

  • you are able to easily recharge - either on your own drive or at work. You will need a charging point - existing cabling needs to have spare capacity.
  • you do short journeys around town and have a second conventionally fuelled car for longer trips where recharging infrastructures cannot be relied upon
  • you do a very high mileage locally where the savings in fuel costs outweigh the higher capital costs - eg: local taxi or deliveries
  • the green imperative dominates any financial consequences
Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - gordonbennet
Will electricity stay at the current levels for charging - no, probably not.

Tax often changes how it's collected - it's likely to need to in the future.

If they taxed via the smart meters why would that be bad? Those that use most pay most...surely fairest?

None of which i have a problem with as you can easily see from my words, so many posts on here from those eager to take up EV are doing so on the sole basis of cheaper running costs, the environmental arguments for and against will go on for years like supposed man made climate change, another lucrative industry.

I don't blame anyone if they can take advantage of this cheap fuel honeymoon period, especially if they can find a bargain and not pay out supercar money for a nothing special battery car, but we can see people are not thinking things through fully and planning their motoring future on electricity for travel staying cheap so comparing apples with oranges, we know cheap won't be the case once enough have taken the bait.

I just wish people would see past the gushing so good for you propaganda for things like smart meters, and just ask themselves why are these things being pushed so hard whilst keeping in mind that most important of facts, the state is not your friend.

Edited by gordonbennet on 17/11/2019 at 07:56

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - pd

If the batteries last say 10 years, the car will end up being scrapped. An IC car will still be running for some time after.

The average age of scrapping an IC car is 13 years so, in practice, most won't.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Avant

Posting on this thread to bring it up to the front again, as Sam is still looking for views on this.

Edited by Avant on 22/11/2019 at 16:39

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Sam M

Thank you, sorry I'm repeating myself, I'm very apprehensive on spending so much, and am trying to ensure I do the right thing and probably over agonising far like too much like all Mums. I'm afraid cars aren't my forte. Yes I know ev is a risk, but it seems I'll make a good saving on petrol.

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Terry W

Not sure how many miles you do each year - but let's assume 10,000.

A small/medium size car may do around 50mpg. So that's 200 gallons pa. At (say) £6 per gallon your total spend will be £1200 pa.

Recharging an electric car costs somewhere around 4p per mile. Over a year that is £400.

So an electric car will save around £800 per year in fuel costs. But you need to balance this saving against the compromises you will need to make:

  • you will get an older EV for the same money as a newer petrol or diesel, or have to accept an extra cost to buy a car of a similar age. So any fuel saving needs to be balanced against age or price - it may take 3-5 years to "breakeven"
  • battery packs degrade over time. I suspect manufacturers promote EVs on the basis of optimum temperatures and driving conditions. In winter and heavy traffic range could be seriously compromised.
  • Replacement batteries are expensive and would likely be uneconomic for an EV over 5-7 years old.

Don't run away with the idea that they are super green either - most of the fuel cost difference is taxation. However they do move emissions from towns to the power station.

My personal take is that they work only if:

  • you are a two car family and can recharge on a driveway
  • you accept you never need do a long journey above (say) 60% of quoted range
  • you plan on keeping the EV for many years
  • you have unsubstantiated faith in the life of a battery pack
Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - madf

Evs are at teh start of their technological development rather as the IC engine was in the 1970s..

Whatever you buy now will be techoligically obsolete by 2025. And worthless.

Why pay now for what is old technology?. Wait a few years and get 3 times bang for your buck then

(same story with all technology. Early adopter pays a premium for a soon to be surpassed in all ways .gadget..

(See mobile phones.. In 20 years an Iphone 1,2,3,4 is now obsolete and worthless..)

Nissan Leaf - Used Nissan Leaf Owners Advice - Engineer Andy

Not all old tech is worthless - useless, but if it works and is in good condition, they are collectors items, if not many are around any more. A relative owned a 1970s HP calculator, which if it had still worked, would've been worth £0000s.

I get your point though about early adopters, especially getting the bang for your proverbial buck - my 23in LCD TV cost me £400 in 2006. I can get a much flashier 4K (or higher) TV about 3 times the size today for that money. Admitedly mine still works fine....

 

Value my car