Anata: "certainly off road they're found wanting..."
Oh dear you've come to the table with that idea have you. Never driven one then? Driving sensibly it is almost impossible to get stuck.
It's true that in the middle east and Aus there has been a trend to buy Japanese. Then they find that servicing costs and parts for the older vehicles are hard to source. Now the trend is back the other way.
I can service my 1974 Series III for very little money indeed. £10 for the plugs, £3 with get me a set of points, condenser and rotor arm. £3 for the distritor cap. I think those prices are good.
Ever tried to get parts for a 30 yr old Nissan?
Like I said before, if you don't want one don't buy one. For me and many others it's the best thing I've ever driven.
I agree they are pretty worthless. I paid £2000 for my 1984 Light Weight, 18 mnths on it's worth the same. My mate with a Series 3 BMW was paying that for three services a year. £800 for a side light - bargain to you I expect. After all the more you pay the better something is - hence the German car pricing policy over here.
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I'm not arguing the virtues of an old landy for a local run around. As I said in my last post around a farm and village in the UK an old Defender makes a good deal of sense.
I'm talking about current and recent production LR Defender and Discos.
>Oh dear you've come to the table with that idea have you. Never driven one then?<
It's not an idea it's a sad fact yes I have driven a number of Defenders.
I even tried a bit of what I think you chaps in the UK call 'green laning' in a 90 Td5 last time I was in the UK and the lack of rear locker showed big time. I had to use momentum rather than finesse on uneven ground, this risks vehicle damage and rips up the lane much more....never mind the woes of the Disco's traction control and the mud, dust and stones flying all over the show.
I do ten of thousands of km off road every year in the wilds of Africa (not in a LR though). I see Defenders get stuck in axle twisting terrain that a pick up 4x4 with a rear locker breezes, vehicles such as the Hilux. Sadly I see LRs broken down all the time, half shafts popping all over the show, gearboxes, engines, build quality issues galore....this kinda cross referenced with the catalogue of woes about the marque on honest John's car-by-car breakdown so I just wonder why they still sell....I guess its like Brittney Spears....there's no accounting for taste!
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Anata: "certainly off road they're found wanting..."
Oh dear you've come to the table with that idea have you. Never driven one then? Driving sensibly it is almost impossible to get stuck.
It's true that in the middle east and Aus there has been a trend to buy Japanese. Then they find that servicing costs and parts for the older vehicles are hard to source. Now the trend is back the other way.
I can service my 1974 Series III for very little money indeed. £10 for the plugs, £3 with get me a set of points, condenser and rotor arm. £3 for the distritor cap. I think those prices are good.
Ever tried to get parts for a 30 yr old Nissan?
Like I said before, if you don't want one don't buy one. For me and many others it's the best thing I've ever driven.
I agree they are pretty worthless. I paid £2000 for my 1984 Light Weight, 18 mnths on it's worth the same. My mate with a Series 3 BMW was paying that for three services a year. £800 for a side light - bargain to you I expect. After all the more you pay the better something is - hence the German car pricing policy over here.
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DISCOVERY WINS AUTO EXPRESS ‘USED 4X4 OF THE YEAR’ ACCOLADE AT 2003 USED CAR HONOURS
Gaydon, Warwickshire, 16 April, 2003 – The Land Rover Discovery has won an Auto Express Used Car honour for the second consecutive year with the ‘Used 4x4 of the Year’ accolade for 2003.
Chosen as the best vehicle in the 4x4 category, the Discovery was judged a superior used buy to the BMW X5 and Jeep Grand Cherokee. The vehicle has sold over 170,000 in the UK since its 1989 launch and has a history of success in Auto Express honours, with the ‘Best 4x4 off-roader’ accolade in the New Car Honours for 2001, New Car Honours for the 21st century and Used Car Honours for 2002.
Commenting on this latest award, marketing director for Land Rover UK, Colin Green said: "The Discovery is clearly a winner whether bought new or used, and the vehicle performs consistently year in year out in the hands of the toughest judges of any product – its customers. This award, coupled with the fact that there are excellent offers in Land Rover showrooms currently, means that there’s never been a better time to buy a Land Rover."
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Graham, we had a debate about this particular honour in another thread a couple of weeks ago.
If you look at the small print, their definition of used was a vehicle which had been on sale new for at least 12 months. In other words, they're not looking very far back and not judging on reliability alone.
I've got no great desire to damn the Disco, but if they were talking vehicles anywhere between two and five years old I suspect it would have been a different story.
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I'm sure you'll agree Graham but....
If Hilux's etc are so good why do you never see five standing in a garden blocking the view from all windows.
Now the LR's are excellent for this at this!
MM
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>If Hilux's etc are so good why do you never see five standing in a garden blocking the view from all windows.<
Obvious really because they are out on the road!
Hilux is very common in Africa and Aus, very reliable indeed...just a tad sad when they got rid of the Solid axle at the front in 98 I think. Still the bomb proof Cruiser 79 pick up and Troopie is still ubiquitous, more so than anything (not in Blighty).
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... or because there aren't any jap vehicles of that age around.
The Landy will still be a going concern and of value to someone somewhere. You only have to look at at the trading in landies that there is about. Oh I forgot you're not looking are you. Just subscribing to the Jap is best mantra.
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Graham - my point is about new recent purchases of LRs say post 95 rather than some 1979 ex army Lightweight that some geezer picked up for £1500 as a knock about or some Mk 1 that someone has as a little run around in Dorset or some poverty stricken Ugandan goat farmer uses.
If you look at depreciation arguments Discos and Defenders as new and nearly new buys don't look too clever, that on top of or partly because of the poor reliability.
If you look at a recent LR it makes no rational sense whatsoever and I cant understand why folks buy them. The reliability record or lack thereof speaks for itself.
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Anata,
I suppose the main thing in all of this is why should it annoy you so.
There are lots of thoughtful, experienced and intelligent folks out there passing the Toyota dealers to get a current model LR...which they are happy to buy after five years service from their previous one.
Let these informed folks enjoy their LRs in the UK and you enjoy your whatever wherever.
But don't try and trash the whole LR brand (other thread) to a chap who asks about one here..... when it might end up being the best vehicle he's ever owned.
MM
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Ah I see we've been argueing different points here.
But then using your argument we should all be driving very sensible grey Toyota Yaris' around. No choice to be had just sensible shoes and sensible car. Still ignoring the fact that a Landy is the best off road vehicle you can buy.
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I can't imagine a time when a 4wd won't be a need in my life. That need will always be filled by a Solihull product. I will keep thi one whilst it is still economic. By the way I drove mine all the way from Southern Spain to its new home - It never missed a beat - it wasn't as comfy as the 330d I drove down in but then it wouldn't be would it. Good, honest VFM motoring with a heart and soul, which is more than can be said for the brand new 530d Beemer that sits next to it as I type.
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>a Landy is the best off road vehicle you can buy<
Data Graham, the data! Im an empirical kind of guy, give me the data?
Defender - Unreliable/ oil puddles/Build quality v-poor/ No Rear locker/ Aircon a joke, keeps your knees, and car keys cold only/ noisy/ v slow/ joke brakes/ Roll over very easily and then squash/ They leak/ Ergonomics from hell - hand brake digs into left leg, window winder into right/ forced to drive with right elbow out window/fit only for midgets.
Disco 1 Unreliable/oil puddles/ Build quality v-poor/No rear locker/ only room for laptop and condom in boot.
Disco 2 Still early days build quality better but still not good compared to Japanese/No Centre locker (have them now again in 2003)/ Dreadful departure angle, leave plastic all over the show/ simply does not work in sand or dunes/ Traction control a total joke, spraying dust and stones all over the show. By the time it kicks in youve lost the plot.
Freelander - ...best not talked about!
But ....they\'ve got character...and then there\'s the landy wave!
Anata, can we have less of the graphic details please DD.
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Disco 1 Unreliable/oil puddles/ Build quality v-poor/No rear locker/ only room for laptop and condom in boot.
Well, the laptop must be the one designed for an elephant, and as for the birth control...you must have bought a hot air balloon by mistake.
That or the boot you looked in was on a Dinky toy...
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Enough of the smutty comments. Thank you.
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Enough of the smutty comments. Thank you.
I was actually trying to make reference to the fact that I couldn't understand why he'd think the Disco's 'boot' was small (hence reference to Dinky toy).
Trying...and failing
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In 4x4 terms the Disco's storage space is tiny, particularly the Disco 1. Compare it to the Shogun, Colarado or the superb Nissan Patrol and you will see what I mean.
This might not be an issue in Blighty, on the school run or with the weekly groceries shop to Tescos, but it is if you are doing self supported safaris in the Wilds of Africa or the Australian outback. Allegedly this is what the car is capable of.
The result is that folks tend to put way too much on the roof rack.
Oh I also forgot to mention that the Defender's rear spare wheel mount rips off if you use for a few thousand km on dirt roads....which the thing is meant to be capable of. It's been doing this in Africa and Australia for at least 12 years and the dozy gits at Solihull STILL wont address the problem!
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>> Enough of the smutty comments. Thank you. >> I was actually trying to make reference to the fact that I couldn't understand why he'd think the Disco's 'boot' was small (hence reference to Dinky toy).
Morris, it was more of a general comment to stop others jumping on the bandwagon than personally directed at yourself.
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Middleman
It doesn't annoy me, it confuses me! I've seen these things breaking on a number of occassion. It's so bad I now will not go on an extended safari into the bush with a LR.
There is also the issue in Africa, admitedly not so pressing in Blighty that there are very few LR dealers, every 2 horse town in Africa has a Toyota dealer.
>But don't try and trash the whole LR brand<
Free speech brother, free speech - you have your say, I'll have mine. He can ignore my mirthful jibe, which I might add is entirely founded, backed up by just about any reliablity survey of repute you care to name.
If he buys a Disco he then can't winge if he has doggy do with the thing (which is more likely than with just about anything else on the market). If I put him off...and he buys a Shogun/ Cruiser/ Colarado Patrol or 2CV ......that cool! There's a good chance I'll have saved the geezer some grief,and he will have a much better vehicle to boot.
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Anata. Data Graham, the data! Im an empirical kind of guy, give me the data?
So where is your data that they leak etc? And some data on 30 - 50 year old japs please. Also give me a breakdown on running them for a similar period of time.
Try getting any of those vehicles down a green lane in the UK. They're far to big.
Why are you obsessed with diff lockers? If you want them they can be had for the Landy.
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Apart form the Defender, do any other 4x4s (not counting Audi A8) have the bits most regularly in contact with trees walls gateposts and other road users made of ally? Can it only be our wonderful climate and sea salt, and a reluctance to splash primer on dents, that props up Defender sales?
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Well there are plenty of 40 Series Cruisers around in Australia the US and Africa, they were not common in the UK at all. I wager that they have a survival rate every bit comparable to the Landy. Landys have aluminium bodies and this sets up some entertaining electrolytic reactions where steel and aluminium meet, particularly in costal areas. Landys not looked after will rust just as quickly as a Cruiser.
What?s more It?s a fact that not too many 40 Series Cruisers come onto the 2nd hand market in South Africa because folks keep them and if they do they get snapped up so quick it's scary, not so with old Mk 1/ 2/ 3 Land Rovers. They are used as game viewing or farm workhorses ? you wouldn?t want to drive any distance in one of these, very agricultural.
Longevity or survival of the 70 Series Cruiser and the old Nissan Patrols will be at least be comparable to Defender, plenty of those engines do 1 million km and a whole lot more without being opened ? this, to put it politely doesn?t happen too often with the Landy. I?ve never heard of a a half shaft going on a Cruiser, Landys pop all the when they do heavy work on sand. Cruiser sales started to overtake the LR in Australia only in the late sixties and much more strongly in the 70s when word started getting around about how much more durable and reliable the Cruisers are. LR sales simply fell off a cliff. Australia is now replete with ancient Cruisers, they are practically part of the landscape in the Outback. And now Toyota alone has 60% of the Australian 4x4 market. Go out of urban centres in South Africa and all the neighbouring countries and the 70 Series Cruiser is ubiquitous?.Landys are very, very, very thin on the ground.
Anyway this is hardly the point. I?m not talking about antique vehicles. I?m questioning why anyone would buy a new or relatively recent production Defender or Disco when they have such an appalling reliability record. You?re avoiding that point, are you actually in all honesty suggesting that there is not a dependability problem with the marque and that all the surveys are misleading and worth diddly squat? (check on this site under car-by-car breakdown look what HJ details about the Defender and Disco?.it?s truly scary! This is what prompted me to start this thread).
I posit that the whole LR thing is a big charade, a myth of style over substance. The LR marketing honchos are trading using clever advertising and packaging ? a shape that has not changed since 1949, tapping into a deep part of people?s psyche on the image of a bygone age. That?s the only explanation I can figure of why they sell quite well in places such as the UK. It would also explain why when stuck for a rational argument folks dust off and wheel out the old ?character? and ?charisma? tripe.
Where 4x4s really get used good and proper, Africa, parts of Asia, South America and Australia the Land Rover just doesn?t cut it and is left for dead by Cruisers and Patrols.
Oh I?d have no problems whatsoever getting a full sized Nissan Patrol 80, 70 or 100 Series (Amazon) Cruiser down a green lane, UK green lanes are no narrower than tracks through the bush veldt, and there are not nearly so many vicious thorns to worry about. Of course having lockers will allow you to fineness with accurate wheel placement and no wheel spin rather than throwing the vehicle at muddy banks and water washed galleys and gouging great chunks out of the trail.
Obsessed with lockers no - but a serious 4x4 vehicle should come with a rear locker (as well as the centre locker for full time 4x4s- Defender has a centre locker, older part time Landys don?t have a centre differential in the transfer box to lock!). They work very well. The G Wagon and 100 GX Cruiser (not available in the UK ? AMAZON body, solid axles front and back on coils, mid range Corolla like interior) comes with 3 lockers.
After market ARB air lockers can be fitted to a Landy true but they are not cheap. I argue that a rear locker should be part of the spec for a car with such pretensions.
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I posit that the whole LR thing is a big charade, a myth of style over substance.
Err actually that is a statement to describe the whole new car/motoring/4WD bandwagon (and most other "boys toys" items I guess).
If not we'd all be driving capable £2K 6yr old diesel hatchbacks.
MM
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>Err actually that is a statement to describe the whole new car/motoring/4WD bandwagon (and most other "boys toys" items I guess).<
I guess that's true, and a fair one.
It's even true here in South Africa, for most 4x4 owners in the main urban centres, few of these Subrban Assault Vehicles ever get off road. For this sort of animal the logical vehicle is to my mind the Beemer X5, which is marketed properly within its capabilities by BMW and is a great 'tar car' for light occassional duty on good dirt roads.
That said a goodly few of us do fit out and use our 4x4s as workhorses and 'hard core' safari vehicles to get out there and explore the great big beutiful Africa. This is extremely tough on cars and if its not up to it it will break.
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