Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Wed 7 Nov 2018 09:37

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - MikeM100

Having wasted several hours trying to find a better deal for my Gas & Electric I pondered what it would be like if we bought vehicle fuel in a similar way ..............

May I suggest we need more 'competition'in the domestic market for petrol and diesel fuel. With more electric vehicles coming on to the roads we also need to make vehicle energy consumption easier to understand for all consumers.

I therefore suggest that we adopt the practices of the electricity and gas utilities who have greatly improved their industry over the last thirty years and have provided us with an extremely competitive market for these products.

Firstly, we need to set up a Government Office (Offuel?) for the regulation of all vehicle fuel in the UK. They will liaise with industry and represent consumers interests to ensure that we have the keenest prices that the market can provide. The Office will also have powers to impose additional price 'levies' to ensure that 'Green' and other environmental issues are given the consideration they deserve. They will also help break up the 'big' fuel companies to encourage many more smaller companies to enter the 'market' and provide greater choice with a vast range of competitive tariffs.

The Office will also encourage consumers to regularly 'switch' suppliers using the various on-line web sites. However, the usual exit fees for early change of contract would apply to encourage customer loyalty.

This 'shake up' will entirely change how vehicle fuel is purchased and there will be many changes to the old fashioned established practices that may include the following:

Consumers will be required to be contracted to a particular company and will only be able to purchase fuel from their chosen company and their designated filling stations. This may be a little inconvenient but consumers will soon get used to the extra driving to find one of 'their' filling stations.

Consumers will no longer have the inconvenience of 'paying' at the filling station but will have their yearly consumption estimated (on the high side) and will pay by a calculated monthly direct debit only.

Whilst the fuel pumps may still have 'indicators' to monitor the delivery of fuel, the price will be shown in kilo Watt hours (kWh) that will be calculated from the actual volume, the temperature of delivery, the calorific value of the fuel (dependant on where it was refined) and a 'magic' conversion factor (to six decimal places - no less). Not unreasonably there will be a small 'standing charge' for use of the pump and the electricity used to pump the fuel that will be clearly billed.

It may also be prudent to charge variable rates for the volume (energy) delivered - for example the first 10 litres of fuel (or equivalent kWh) could cost £2.50 per litre and the next x litres cost a reduced cost of £1.20 per litre. This may be in place of the standing charge or in addition depending on the chosen tariff.

This will then allow consumers to easily compare the cost of traditional hydrocarbon fuels with electricity and or gas.

Before fueling the customer will be obliged to provide proof of their identity (e.g. passport), enter their vehicle registration number and current odometer reading. This will allow real time calculation of actual miles per gallon (MPG) and should the vehicle not meet current permissible performance/emissions it will be immediately immobilised and then crushed. The Office will then have instant access to national fuel consumption figures that will be used to calculate variable tax revenue based on consumer demand.

All this data will be made available on a multi-page 'paperless' monthly web bill which consumers will be able to query 'at non busy times' by phone, at their expense, when there is a mistake not of their making.

AND so On and so On and On until I fall onto my knees weeping tears into my empty fuel tank !

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 09:44

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

Looks like a wind up to me.

Consumers will be required to be contracted to a particular company and will only be able to purchase fuel from their chosen company and their designated filling stations.

So what happens when you visit part of the country where your contracted supplier has no designated filling stations

It may also be prudent to charge variable rates for the volume (energy) delivered - for example the first 10 litres of fuel (or equivalent kWh) could cost £2.50 per litre and the next x litres cost a reduced cost of £1.20 per litre.

That would be most unfair to motorists who buy fuel in small quantities for one of many reasons e.g. do limited mileage, have limited funds, have a small car with a small tank etc yet it would be advantageous to high mileage owners or owners with learge engines.

Before fueling the customer will be obliged to provide proof of their identity (e.g. passport), enter their vehicle registration number and current odometer reading. This will allow real time calculation of actual miles per gallon (MPG) and should the vehicle not meet current permissible performance/emissions it will be immediately immobilised and then crushed.

Think this suggestion proves it a wind up.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 13:12

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - alan1302

Looks like a wind up to me

Actually no - it's a humorous post so not a wind up...just fun

Edited by alan1302 on 07/11/2018 at 13:14

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 13:18

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

Looks like a wind up to me

Actually no - it's a humorous post so not a wind up...just fun

How can you be sure?

Or are you perhaps MikeM100

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 21:16

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - alan1302

Looks like a wind up to me

Actually no - it's a humorous post so not a wind up...just fun

How can you be sure?

Or are you perhaps MikeM100

I can be sure as I read it and can detect a tongue I cheek post a mile off.

If I told you I was not MkeM100 you may not believe me so I won't! ;-)

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 10:15

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - NARU

Perhaps call it:

Association for Petrol Retailers International Leadership, For Online and Offline Licencing

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 10:52

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Vitesse6

Let's hope Chris Grayling doesn't read this forum, that idea is right up his street. Brexit could go on hold for a week or two whilst this is brought in.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 13:55

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - MikeM100

I am MikeM100 and yes, it is indeed a wind-up.

In the olden days we were sent a Gas/Electric bill every quarter and popped into the Gas/Electric showrooms to pay it. Or else we sent them a cheque - easy !

Now everything from billing to paying is so complicated ?

I read (here ?) recently that filling stations want to implement pay before fuelling and my imagination then ran away to what the future might be like. Hence my little rant.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 14:04

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

In the olden days we were sent a Gas/Electric bill every quarter and popped into the Gas/Electric showrooms to pay it. Or else we sent them a cheque - easy !

Now everything from billing to paying is so complicated ?

Why is paying by direct debit so complicated?

Last week I changed our fuel supplier. I check every year and this time I found a much better deal using U Switch, took all of about 10 minutes. Expected saving is approx £250 a year compared to sticking with the previous supplier. Cooling off period ends early next week then its give them meter readings and its sorted.

When we changed to a water meter earlier this year people said we were mad. They would be digging up our drive, making a mess in the kitchen and we would pay more. What a load if idiots people can be. The meter was fitted in the road under the existing stop cock cover, took 10 minutes. Had one bill so far, saved us about £125 over the previous year and that was during the summer with regular garden watering. I expect the next bill to save us more. At least a £250 a year saving.

So in the last 6 months less than 30 minutes on the laptop has given as an annual saving of over £500.

Looks like the only person you are winding up is yourself.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 15:26

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Andrew-T

<< Expected saving is approx £250 a year compared to sticking with the previous supplier. ..... I expect the next bill to save us more. At least a £250 a year saving. >>

Ah. So this is how you afford all those frequent oil and filter changes .... :-)

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 16:21

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

<< Expected saving is approx £250 a year compared to sticking with the previous supplier. ..... I expect the next bill to save us more. At least a £250 a year saving. >>

Ah. So this is how you afford all those frequent oil and filter changes .... :-)

Why do you insist on calling them "frequent" when the oil is only changed at the intervals recommended by the manufacturers.

Many posters on here with years of motoring under their belts carry out changes at the same intervals I do, some carry out changes every 6 months

Many posters on here say quite regularly that buyers should avoid cars where there is no evidence of frequent oil,changes.

So I suggest you save up some of your sarcastic remarks for them instead of wasting them on me. You must realise by now that you will not turn me into one of those members who insists its OK to neglect their car.

But do the sums, at about £25 an oil/filter change the £500 a year saving will keep me going for 20 years. I spend more than that going out for meals.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 18:40

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Andrew-T

<< Why do you insist on calling them "frequent" when the oil is only changed at the intervals recommended by the manufacturers. So I suggest you save up some of your sarcastic remarks for them instead of wasting them on me. >>

Lighten up, Skidpan - it's only another wind-up. Consider yourself wound up. :-)

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Thu 8 Nov 2018 09:59

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

<< Why do you insist on calling them "frequent" when the oil is only changed at the intervals recommended by the manufacturers. So I suggest you save up some of your sarcastic remarks for them instead of wasting them on me. >>

Lighten up, Skidpan - it's only another wind-up. Consider yourself wound up. :-)

Just shows what a total cint you are. Go back under a rock.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 16:32

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - madf

MikeM100 said "Now everything from billing to paying is so complicated ?"

It's not.. it is MUCH simpler...Go online- the process - if you want to pay someone - takes less than 5 minutes

And you have a vast range of payment methods . Paypal, Bank Transfer etc..

I assume you are in your 60sor early 70s.. I am the latter. If I can keep up, anyone can..

"Methinks thou dost protest too much"

There is an alternative to the above but I am sure you are not senile. ;-)

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 18:43

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - MikeM100

Your assumption on my age was spot on - late sixties and yes I was protesting a little too much but just for a little bit of fun !

Yes, of course I use Direct Debits and make Bank Transfers for payments and it never ever goes wrong - does it ?

I also do use the Price Comparison/Switching web sites although they have been shown to be not entirely reliable. E.g. not showing companies (unless you ask nicely) from whom they do not receive 'commissions'.

Returning to the price of fuel my big 'gripe' is that Gas & Electric companies won't tell you the price of their products unlike vehicle fuel retailers who proudly display them on big poles outside their premises (Albeit to a tenth of a penny).

Co-Op Energy for example (the company that I use) hides its prices in tiny print pdf files that contain multiple so called tariffs. Doing so I assume prevents screen scraping by third parties of their prices.

Instead the price comparison sites encourage us to complete questionnaires who only report 'how much you can typically save' by signing up. Yes, you can enter your actual yearly usage if you have them available but still the same 'what you can save' !

Further 'complications' arise when the billing goes wrong, they make inaccurate estimated readings and you want some of your money back when you leave them. There is little joy in waiting in a telephone queue (as a valued customer) and eventually speaking to someone who has little comprehension of their own systems and then having to repeat your complaint all over again when they don't fix it first time around?

So, buying fuel at a 'Petrol Station' is in comparison dead easy ! What is more does anyone else, as I do get a nice warm feeling when driving off with a full tank of fuel ?

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 19:32

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - KB.

"What is more does anyone else, as I do get a nice warm feeling when driving off with a full tank of fuel ?"

I suspect I might get a warm feeling if I drove off having not paid for the aforementioned tankful, but otherwise the emotion is more a case of " aww shucks, that just cost me £60".

Actually it's not "aww shucks" ... more like another commonly used phrase or expression, but not one that bears repetition here :-)

Edited by KB. on 07/11/2018 at 19:32

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 20:06

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - oldroverboy.

The only shake up I would like to see i fuel costs is.

VED removed and a suitable amount put on duty so that granny who drives 1500 miles a year pays x amount, and rep on 50.000 miles pays for his usage.

also that 3rd party insurance is decoupled from fully comp.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 20:11

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - sandy56

For years I bought my fuel at a local ASDA. There were always queues to pay at lunch time but they had two pumps where you could pay via a card, and no queues. You paid for what you wanted. I think there was a minimum amount of about £5.

There is no problem if garages want us to pay at the pump, the technology is available, they just just want motorists to use the shop and buy coffee, paper, wine, biscuits etc.

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 21:54

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Sulphur Man

Completely second this. Pay VED based on usage, instead of the currently preposterous position that electric and plug-in hybrid drivers can clock up 50K miles a year and not pay a penny. Puts the 'cyclists should pay road tax' non-point into sharp relief. The only missing element is the encouragement to drive less polluting vehicles. So cars which are low emissions get a (modest) discount compared to others, just to keep that positive trend rolling.

The only reason it doesnt exist is that the DofT must have studied it and deem it a loss of revenue compared to current disproportionate

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Wed 7 Nov 2018 23:05

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Andrew-T

The only shake up I would like to see i fuel costs is. VED removed and a suitable amount put on duty so that granny who drives 1500 miles a year pays x amount, and rep on 50.000 miles pays for his usage.

Nice idea, but we have been here before. Try to work out (roughly) how much more a litre would cost, and then see how that compares with buying elsewhere. Does it work?

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Thu 8 Nov 2018 10:06

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - skidpan

The only shake up I would like to see i fuel costs is.

VED removed and a suitable amount put on duty so that granny who drives 1500 miles a year pays x amount, and rep on 50.000 miles pays for his usage.

I used to be in favour of this and in reality with the £0 and £30 VED rates having gone it would potentially save us money especially with the Caterham doing only 2000 miles a year max. But I have a nasty suspicion it would not last long.

Somewhere in government there would be a person who would suggest an annual charge to fund roads similar to the old VED. Within a short time we would be paying extra fuel duty and the new tax, lets call it Road Tax, they might even suggest we have a disc on the windscreen.

Bet that would make everyone happy.

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Thu 8 Nov 2018 10:57

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - SLO76

The only shake up I would like to see i fuel costs is.

VED removed and a suitable amount put on duty so that granny who drives 1500 miles a year pays x amount, and rep on 50.000 miles pays for his usage.

also that 3rd party insurance is decoupled from fully comp.

Absolutely agree.

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Thu 8 Nov 2018 13:40

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Engineer Andy

The only shake up I would like to see i fuel costs is.

VED removed and a suitable amount put on duty so that granny who drives 1500 miles a year pays x amount, and rep on 50.000 miles pays for his usage.

also that 3rd party insurance is decoupled from fully comp.

Absolutely agree.

I think that the argunment politicians like to throw back against that is that many poorer people living in more remote/rural areas do quite a bit of mileage using older, less expensive cars and thus overall would be hit harder from Mr. Rich pensioner doing 2k miles pa tops in their brand new luxury German barge, and thus wouldn't go down well with voters from the former's area.

I agree that it would far simpler, probably cheaper, no missing retaxing your car and is obviously the most transparent way. I think the Aussies do something similar with insurance, so that all drivers are at least covered with 3rd party cover - at this moment I can't remember how they do it to cover everyone as a minimum cover level, but I can look it up (if someone else doesn't beat me to the punch) after lunch.

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Thu 8 Nov 2018 13:59

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - daveyjp

"Having wasted several hours trying to find a better deal for my Gas & Electric"

I assume the OP either calls all the providers or doesn't have the internet as this process takes me about 10 minutes once a year.

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 00:51

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - expat

I think the Aussies do something similar with insurance, so that all drivers are at least covered with 3rd party cover - at this moment I can't remember how they do it to cover everyone as a minimum cover level, but I can look it up (if someone else doesn't beat me to the punch) after lunch.

Here in West Australia we pay registration which includes third party personal insurance. It does not include third party property insurance. So Joe Blow in his clapped out banger hits pensioner in his German barge. Pensioner has injuries which are paid for by the state insurance commission but damage to the Merc is not. This is assuming that Joe Blow has paid his rego on his banger. The benefit of this system is that personal injuries are covered. The disadvantage is that bad drivers pay the same as good ones and that there is no competition for third party personal insurance. On the whole I think that the State Insurance Commission are probably just as good a deal as a commercial insurance company would be and a lot less likely to go bankrupt.

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 12:04

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Engineer Andy

Thanks for the info - to be honest, in the UK we have a serious problem with cars not being insured (and the likelihood is they aren't taxed either, and may even have fake number plates so they can avoid being caught by ANPR cameras and automatically fined/prosecuted as appropriate) and being involved in accidents.

I agree that a standard (presumably low) cost of 3rd party insurance that is effectively subsidised by taxpayers/responsible drivers is technically unfair, but I suppose it's better than them having none at all. It seems in the UK that the ever thinning Blue Line isn't interested in going after people driving with no car insurance, as well as those not paying for goods, whether they be fuel or clothing in a shop.

I understand that filling stations are more than reluctant to go over to pre-pay systems because it will hurt their income from the shop part, but perhaps, as with using seat belts, drink driving and smoking, we just need to better educate everyone without lecturing them and to make the selfish behaviour of some motorists who take ages in the shop and block the pumps, for want of a better term, 'uncool'.

This may mean filling stations spending more money in providing sufficient additional parking as well as changing over (preferably when the place is refurbished generally, to save money on changing pump equipment when it's not obsolete/end-of-life) the pump charging equipment to the more fancy pre-pay type, but in the long run it'll be better for them, as it means shorter delays and more customers through the door.

The ones who would probably suffer with this are the urban filling station retailers who don't have the space to expand to provide better spacing between pumps and more parking for the shop, and independent retailers in poorer and especially rural areas who cannot afford to change equipment or add facilities as often as those in more urban areas or those on busy routes (who have space to expand) who have greater and steadier turnover and aren't reliant on seasonal business around holiday periods just to stay afloat.

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 15:45

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - RT

Thanks for the info - to be honest, in the UK we have a serious problem with cars not being insured (and the likelihood is they aren't taxed either, and may even have fake number plates so they can avoid being caught by ANPR cameras and automatically fined/prosecuted as appropriate) and being involved in accidents.

Simple - pay before you fill or pay-at-pump - abolish VED - and include 3rd party insurance cost in the fuel duty.

Make it difficult for toerags to avoid paying for fuel and avoiding VED/insurance.

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 17:53

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Andrew-T

<< Simple - pay before you fill or pay-at-pump - abolish VED - and include 3rd party insurance cost in the fuel duty. Make it difficult for toerags to avoid paying for fuel and avoiding VED/insurance. >>

As I said above, it's a great idea, but if that means fuel gets significantly dearer, it may lead to smuggling from other places which do things differently. Or simply any regular travellers across the Channel filling up there. Needs thinking through.

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 10:06

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - FoxyJukebox

Yes--there is a serious side to this humour!

How many of us actually bother to actually look at, read and 100% fully understand the way our energy bills are compiled or fully comprehend just how they get to the figures that they do?

Can you imagine buying petrol( yes-it's a fuel!) and getting a receipt with standing changes, price per unit, vat, fuel duty detailing, projected usage, details on how to pay by direct debit, charges received so far etc etc --i could go on.

Excellent point MikeM100-well pitched!

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Fri 9 Nov 2018 18:35

Any - A Shake-Up in the the way we buy Fuel - Engineer Andy

Yes--there is a serious side to this humour!

How many of us actually bother to actually look at, read and 100% fully understand the way our energy bills are compiled or fully comprehend just how they get to the figures that they do?

Can you imagine buying petrol( yes-it's a fuel!) and getting a receipt with standing changes, price per unit, vat, fuel duty detailing, projected usage, details on how to pay by direct debit, charges received so far etc etc --i could go on.

Excellent point MikeM100-well pitched!

Indeed - I get ticked off at how my water supplier now is ditching its low use tarriff (great way to incentivise people save water - NOT) to go back to the standard standing charge + usage (rather than usage only at a higher rate), which means my bills will jump by 33% very soon. You only now get a discount if you are in a 'vulnerable group' - I believe some pensioners and lower income households will be eligible.

Technically we do sort of pay a 'standing charge' for ICE vehicles - VED. Whether to scrap that has been discussed on other threads/websites.

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