Final outcome remained strongly in favour of a complete ban. Sorry I don't have the exact figures, but I'm sure someone will be along later who does.
HF
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Great,just something else to ban because we don't like it.I like bullbars on 4x4,especially when they are polished stainless steel or really shiney chrome.
I don't like silly little French and Italian cars but i don't expect anyone to try and ban them,and if people want to drive around in huge great 4x4s,why turn green and want to ban them?
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Agree. Bullbars have their uses. I have one, I like it and that's my business.
I've never yet heard a good reason for banning them except some nanny claptrap about their quote endangering pedestrians. What are pedestrians doing in the road when there are sidewalks provided for them?
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What are pedestrians doing in the road when there are sidewalks provided for them?
I think it's more to do with drivers who can't handle vehicles this big and leave the road, or use them on the school run when there is always a chance of a kid running out.
Daft suggestion here - do they have to be metal? Wouldn't a plastic moulding look as good yet be safer? Granted it wouldn't be any use for those who actually need proper bullbars, but for those who just want them to make the vehicle look good it would do as well and would be safer.
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I agree- too many people have got too much to say about other peoples pride and joys!
As far as I understand it, the law is that a motor manufacturer or dealer cannot fit bull bars to a 4x4 but there is no law against any aftermarket shop selling or fitting them - crazy or what!
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cars are designed with crumple zones, T bone someone and your zone + their side protection helps keep them alive.
stick a rigid steel structure on and you might aswell call your car a tin opener - as has been demonstrated in several actual crashes.
OK they look nice but is it worth putting other peoples lives at risk should an "accident" happen.
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Seems a bit pointless to ban the jaguar on the front of Jags, make the Merc 3 -pointed star and Spirit of Ecstacy(?) on Rollers springy and undertake expensive research & development into ways of making the front of cars more "pedestrian friendly" if some people are allowed to add huge solid steel structures to the front of their cars. The purpose of bull bars is to protect you when hitting bulls (or roos if you are Aussie) or live in the wilds where you might meet such a beast. So why are they necessary on school run vehicles? Purely to make the vehicle look even more aggressive? A (potentially dangerous) decoration? To give a firm foundation for those 4 driving lamps you never use? As for T Lucas asking why ban something people want - I used to harbour a desire for a .22 rifle when I was a teenager, I used to like a few pints at the weekend before driving home (before breathalyser and more enlightened drink driving laws. But then perhaps we should not take too much notice of someone who classifies all Italian cars as "silly little" cars. Never did hanker after a Ferrari or Lambo - much preferred a more manly car like..........Well anyway, bull bars are potentially very dangerous and have no practical purpose on 90% of the cars that have them
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>>I don't like silly little French and Italian cars but i don't >>expect anyone to try and ban them
The difference being that, on the whole, silly little French and Italian cars are not as devastatingly injurious in a crash as bull bars.
It has been proven in various experiments that bull bars are dangerous. This morning I parked nose to nose with a '52' plate Shogun. It did not have bull bars fitted, but I found myself thinking 'If that hit me head on I'd have no chance.' Multiply that by 100 if bull bars had been fitted.
Unless you regularly drive through rough terrain, bull bars have no purpose other than to satisfy the ego of people who drive these 4x4s and never intend to take them off road.
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Are these the things once known as Roo bars? When did a kangaroo last jump out in front of you (Oz readers excluded)
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These bull bars can be nasty. I got chased by a nutter down south in a freelander with huge aftermarket bull bars. He rammed my Jetta about five times. Unfortuntely as the car was lowered, his bars went over the bumper and dented the boot in. Luckily it still shut. I couldnt get away because of the traffic.
The guy jumped out in traffic and tried to smash the window through to get me out becuase i had locked the doors. When i reported it to the police one officer saw the name that came up on the screen after the lisence plate details had been inputed and said: " your lucky you didnt get out the car, he would of beaten you to a pulp". Nice. I am not fan of these things.
When i happened to glance at the guys adrress over the counter, i realised the final stage of the attacked had occured virtually outside his house!
Ben
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Ben, what can I say? I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. This idiot (not a strong enough word I know, but what I want to say will only get moderated) deserves a long spell in prison to bring him down a peg or two.
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Glad you 'got away' with your offence of driving in the same vicinity as this maniac, Ben.
And I STILL think the things could easily be banned with no effect, other than a bit of lost pride, to anyone?!
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Couldn't agree more, HF!
As Roland Rat said bull bars have no effect other than to inflate the ego of the unfortunately bestowed.
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And what on earth are you doing still being awake at this ungodly hour, RTB???
HF ;)
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Awaiting your posts with baited breath, old friend! ;-)
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You really do need to be very careful when using the word 'old'.
Could easily be taken he wrong way by the wrong person, my dear ;)
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Shall we continue this by e-mail?
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After we have banned bullbars and probably 4x4s while we are at it,what else should we ban that we don't like?BMWs?Transit Vans?Foreign Trucks?Smart Cars?or just all Renaults and Fiats?
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so are all 4X4's a safety risk - NO
or renaults or fiats (well maybe fiat :-D).........
In this case it's a fashion accesory that is added to a car that leads addition risk to others - I see no problem in banning these. And why not replace them with sqiggy foamy ones that don't cause damage - whats the problem with that ?
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The chrome plating wil not stick to soft plastic.
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I think there are differences between bullbars and a 4X4, Transit, Foreign Truck, Smart Car, Renault or Fiat. The bullbars serve absolutely no useful purpose - and may well increase injury to pedestrians (which could well be you or I) and also could increase damage/injury to the vehicle/occupants to which they're fitted due to impairing the impact zone. Whereas the 4X4 has practical uses off road/towing/bad weather etc., the Transit delivers and works for a living......etc. I don't think it can seriously be argued that they're really only fitted for the reasons mentioned above and that they need only be fitted in appropriate cases (again, mentioned above. Certainly they prevent parking damage to your bonnet, but if I was going to get hit by something, I'd prefer it didn't have bullbars. Manufacturers spend time and money trying to design front ends that cause less injury - only to have a 2" mild steel barrier stuck in front of it. In this case, my vote is against them.
KB.
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i am not keen on boot spoilers on anything other than Mitubishi Evos and Subaru WRXs,ban them on cars that don't need them,and another thing,front 'driving lamps'you don't need those ban them,and Renaults,ban them,you definitly don't need those.
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You haven't addressed the main point of the argument here, T Lucas, which is the safety aspect and have continued with your, not very constructive, sardonic replies. No need for bad feeling here - I'm simply saying that the case for having them is, in my opinion, flawed on safety grounds and that safety should take precedence over personal preferences when it comes to fitting something that *you* like the look of, but which may well cause severe injury.
As I say - we don't want the thread to get ugly - we are supposed to be exchanging thoughts on a sensible basis.
KB.
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For heaven's sake, T Lucas, it's not a case of banning something because we don't like it! Bull-bars are PROVEN to cause unnecessary injury and death to pedestrians. You should stop being so childish and realise that this purely a safety issue, not one to do with personal preference.
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Bull bars and vehicles don't kill people, people do (with apologies to the NRA)
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No Growler, it's not people that do the killing - it's the vehicle that breaks the bones and crushes the skull. The person is driving the vehicle, I agree, but the ton of metal is the thing that causes the actual damage. And if you choose to fit something to the front of it that is known to increase the liklihood of injury in the event of an accident, then in my book you're acting irresponsibly. Of coure the driver is the one with control over the vehicle and it's him/her with the need to drive in such a manner to avoid an accident but no-one's perfect and if an unforeseeable or unavoidable accident occurs and you hit someone with bullbars fitted, you're increasing the chance of killing them unnecessarily.
You did say....... "Agree. Bullbars have their uses. I have one, I like it and that's my business. I've never yet heard a good reason for banning them except some nanny claptrap about their quote endangering pedestrians. What are pedestrians doing in the road when there are sidewalks provided for them?
.............and I thought that you had tongue firmly fixed in cheek with the last sentence - please tell me I'm right on that, at least. But what are their uses - apart from fitting fog lamps on? For most people there is no use justifying the potential danger. You may well be one of the few who does have a good use for them, but you're in the minority. For most it's a visual thing and nothing else. And you say it's "your business" but if I chose to fit a spike facing forward on to my car and claim it's "my business what I fit to my car" I'm sure you'd have a view on that - and yet the bullbar and the spike both present a danger, so why fit one?
KB.
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Forgot to add that, just last week, right outside my front door, I saw, with a perfect view, a small child (about 5 or 6) break away from her mother as they were about to cross the road on to the central island. I saw a car approach the scene at very sensible, low, speed and saw it do an emergency stop and narrowly miss the child. Had the child ran just a second or two earlier there would have been another statistic to add to the rest and in no way could the driver have been blamed. Had the driver had bullbars fitted, the injuries would, according to many statistics,(and certainly according to common sense) been worse than without.......and, I repeat, in no way could the driver have been held responsible for the accident - the child simply bolted across the road without ant warning whatsoever. Had an accident occurred with bullbars, I wonder if the driver would have felt any regret and continued to drive with them fitted - after the funeral, that is.
KB.
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Where I live if all we had to worry about was stuff like this motoring life would be a snap.
Try red front lights, white (or blue, or even green) rear lights. Purple indicators are classy. Or no lights at all. Or dashboard mounted TV's. Or vehicles with blacked out windows and no plates in convoys forcing other vehicles off the road. Congressmen? Carnappers? Rogue cops? The President? Some uppity film star? Who knows. Don't argue, at best they've got baseball bats on board at worst a couple of guns.
So my bullbar is just one small extra piece of self protection so I can ram someone if I have to or limit damage if I get rammed. On my last truck it saved me some grief, I was driving down an unlit street when I careered straight into a vast pile of dirt from some road diggings (totally unlit and without any warning, thus invisible).
The bar took the brunt, with only a couple of dents in my grill. I tore it off next day, had it straightened and refitted. So let's hear it for bullbars.
As for pedestrians well they can take their chances. As they do every second here. We have fines not just for jaywalking, but for "jaystanding", i.e. hanging around in the middle of the road for a bus, or selling things in traffic jams, or just...well, hanging around.
Your idea of a spike's a good one -- I'll get my mechanic to see if he can knock one up: :-0. And what about those scythe things Boadicea's chariot used to have on the wheel hubs......
Now then, where's Growlette? I'm ready for another beer...
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Hello again Growler,
I'm more than happy to note the vastly different conditions in which you live, work and drive, and I did say that there are exceptions to the rule. I'm also pleased to share a smile with you as your humour (dry or what?) continues as ever.
However, over here, things aren't quite the same - as you'll concede, and I'd like to draw a line under our exchange if I may. It's obvious I'm right, so to celebrate I'll join you in a beer in the garden (we do have sunny days too - and today's one of them) :-)
KB.
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I'm sure that if anybody is unlucky enough to get hit buy a 4x4 the fact that its got bullbars is not going to make much difference to the out come as regards injury.
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Most pedestian injuries are low speed encounters. With most cars you can get knocked on to the bonnet and pick up minor injuries from rolloing around. Cars with bull bars tend to just knock you down and run over you.
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I'm sure that if anybody is unlucky enough to get hit buy a 4x4 the fact that its got bullbars is not going to make much difference to the out come as regards injury.
T Lucus, answer this.
What will hurt more; being hit by a plastic bumper, or by a small round metal bar?
In fact try this. Hit yourself on the head with a plastic bottle, and then try the same again, but this time using a scaffold pole!!
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(Shakes his head resignedly) I really cannot believe the attitudes of some of the BRers in this thread. Their selfishness simply beggars belief. I'd like to walk down our local high street on a Saturday afternoon with a cattle prod set to maximum held out in front of me to clear a path through the hoi-poloi. But I don't because I know that it would be highly dangerous if I hit anybody.
This "I'm alright, Jack. Stuff everybody else" attitude is pervading all areas of life and the sooner the tide is turned the better.
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Ouch!that hurt,and ouch! that really hurt some more.I still like bullbars on 4x4s though.
Why not ban towbars on the back of cars when not in use,they look really ugly and must be dangerous?
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I reckon you're just taking the mick a little bit now TL :-) and having made my point (and put Growler well and truly in his place.....you'll get no more from him for a while!) I'll withdraw from this one - nothing left to say.
"Ouch!that hurt,and ouch! that really hurt some more."I still like bullbarson 4x4s though.
Why not ban towbars on the back of cars when not
in use,they look really ugly and must be dangerous?"
Regards,
KB.
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Why not ban towbars on the back of cars
Towbars have a proper use. Bull bars don't.
Why not go the whole hog and ban cars altogether?
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Mr Lucas does in fact make a valid point.
The modern car tends to have a droop snoot the purpose of which is to roll a pedestrian, if hit, onto the bonnet and away from falling under the vehicle and being run over.
The 4x4 in general has a large , high, flat frontal area and will only roll a pedestrian if they are about 12ft 6ins in height. It matter not therefore whether a bull bar is fitted or not. Tangle with a 4x4 as a pedestrian and your going to get seriously hurt bull bar fitted or not.
Growler is also right, as usual, its all down to the nut behind the steering wheel.
DVD.
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Can I quickly break my self imposed ban very briefly,DVD?
I respect your views, as I do those of many others including Growler. However.....the 4X4 may well present a flatter profile to the errant pedestrian than other vehicles, however, as mentioned earlier, the victims body is still going to meet blunt or flat areas of metal or plastic on a standard 4X4, but the bullbar presents a 2" area of unyielding steel bar, concentrating the force of impact to a very small area. The classic comparison is surely that of having a lady tread on your foot with a stiletto heel as opposed to a flat heel. (Though let's not get into fetish material here :-)
Furthermore - Re Growler, in this case it's not *just* down to the nut behind the wheel. If the nut is driving a vehicle with bullbars AND he's going to hit someone, he'll do more damage with them than without them. Far better he didn't hit anyone *but* if he's going to anyway, do it with a less lethal weapon.
Back under my stone.
Regards,
KB.
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Taking your argument a step further KB...
So if you swat a fly with a large square fly squat or prick it with a pin it's the pin that kills it? Somehow that doesn't seem right.
Rgds DVD (TIC)
PS Any sign of a certain Toad under that stone????
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A well aimed thrust of the pin through the the heart of the fly will be convincingly lethal, and avoid the mess that results from swatting.
And no amphibians to be seen here. Incidentally I've had a clump of frogspawn in my pond for a week or so - seems early - must have been the March sunshine that did it. No chance of survival though - will be eaten by the Rudd, and any that do survive get run down by inconsiderate 4x4 drivers wielding especially low mounted frogbars. Is this what happened to Toad, I ask?
KB.
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Bullbars are quite useful for helping traffic flows at busy junctions or roundabouts.Just ease up to the small car in front,and slowly push it out so that you can then proceed on your merry way,making sure the kids are not late for school.
(best done with small Fiats and Renaults)
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Bull bars? Daft.
Can 'em - this isn't Lesotho in a series I Landy.
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Now there's a thought.
The Series Landys have a C-section steel bumper, bolted to a big steel chassis. You wouldn't want to step out in front of that.
The quick witted might have time to hit the deck and let the thing pass over them,but if they were that quick witted, they would still be on the pavement.
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Yes Rob but most pedestrians can safely out-run a Series LR.
MM
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I have a bull bar (chrome a frame) to protect myself from other idiots on the road, if a bit of chrome can go towards protecting me and my family then I'll have one.... selfish maybe, but me and my family are number 1.
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[sarcasm]
bull bars are ideal tools to stop pedestrians from damaging my nice car, just wipe the blood off them and my car is as good as new
[/sarcasm]
Anything you place in between angle brackets will not show up when you post your note, I edited them and replaced them with square brackets
The point that I took from the programmes a year back is that for adults you will end up with lots of broken bones etc because the bars will hit your torso, however for children the impact point of the bull bars will be the head, so it nearly always causes major head trauma and often death. Either way the end result is that it causes more injury when they are fitted.
As we dont have lots of large animals rushing around the M and A roads of this country, there is very little point in having them on your car.
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puntoo, was the first paragraph in your post a quote from a previous contributor? Can't see it by looking back - or has it been deleted?
If it was, I suppose it was an attempt at humour - at least I hope it was - but not that funny was it?
KB.
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KB - I have no wish to put words (or anything else!) into puntoo's mouth, but I think that s/he was merely attempting to illustrate the selfish attitude of some people in the BR.
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Point taken RTB - My mistake.
KB.
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It should have said "sarcasm" "end sarcasm" but got edited.
The point coming across in the BR (I beleive) is that people have them with to protect against accidents or make there car look "nice".
Both seem pathetic when it could make the difference between life and death.
Manufactures spend money making the impact zones of the front of cars impact friendly (to pedestrians) then some muppet sticks a set of iron bars on the front. How about some spikes and flail as well (sarcasm at work again !!)
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Clarky,
when the child you hit is left in a vegative state for the rest of his/her life just remember to tell their family you did it because you were protecting yourself and your family. I am sure it will go down well.
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I have a bull bar (chrome a frame) to protect myself from other idiots on the road, if a bit of chrome can go towards protecting me and my family then I'll have one.... selfish maybe, but me and my family are number 1.
>>
Bull bars won't protect you at all in that respect, Clarky. They're not an integral part of the deformable structure and the nice shiny ones they flog over here will either shear off or impede the deformation which engineers programme into the forward structure.
Remember what they were designed for: to shift large-bodied animals out of the way at lowish speeds in the bush. For the human frame they're like a cheese grater.
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>>Yes Rob but most pedestrians can safely out-run a Series LR.<<
Ha ha, yes thats probably true.
Brakes don't work that well on mine though, maybe thats why I found a set of dentures in the grill when I jet-washed it the other day.
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>>Manufactures spend money making the impact zones of the front of cars impact friendly (to pedestrians) then some muppet sticks a set of iron bars on the front. How about some spikes and flail as well (sarcasm at work again !!)
I believe that a lot of work has yet to be done on...what lies beneath...the bonnet, waiting to greet the jaywalkers head. My car, as a good example, has a huge inlet manifold just 10mm below the skin of the bonnet. Not very forgiving!
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Hey, time out!
1. What are pedestrians doing wandering around where they are likely to encounter vehicles, whether with bull bars or not?
Roads are for motor vee-hickels, pavements are for people. The twain are not supposed to meet, which is why things have been designed that way. If pedestrians are using the street other than at designated crossing points, then the impact must be presumed to be their fault until proven otherwise. If by some random occurrence the vehicle they met carried a bull bar, it is hard to see that the consequences are somehow the fault of its driver. If vehicles are using the pavement instead of the street, then the reverse is true, and a resulting impact must be presumed to be the fault of the driver. Banning bull-bars on the assumption said vehicle might occasionally stray from the road on to the pavement and thus clout a pedestrian would be an exercise in futility, although I grant that might be no obstacle to a Brussels seat-warmer filling in his time till pensionable age by finding things to stop people doing, however unnecessary.
2. "Impact friendly" sounds about as comforting as "friendly fire". "Dear Mr Pedestrian, we regret to hear of your sudden encounter with one of our range of cars, where it appears an impact resulted, and which you found less than satisfactory. Rest assured our designers leave no stone unturned to make sure all our cars are as 'impact-friendly' as possible. We are sorry you found your particular experience with our product not up toy your expectations on this occasion, and wish you a speedy recovery".
Actually I think this whole thread is really just more covert psy-ops sponsored and funded by the Campaign Against SUV's.
......now then, I have an 85 litre tank to fill, so see ya around ;-)
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I agree completely, THe G!
Just to add my two pen'orth... I was amazed to find my car has the grand total of 10 airbags - any of which may one day spring into life to save my bacon, for which no doubt I may one day be truly grateful. So much so in fact, that I'm thinking of emailing the manufacturer to implement an idea I've had - mainly inspired by this thread! I want them to replace the revered emblem on the front of my car with a very large sponge pillow, containing yet MORE airbags so that in the event of an impact... [sigh?] ...(you can see where I'm going on this?) Granted it may spoil the beautiful aerodynamic lines of my car but hey, if it saves a life... What's more, once my idea proves it's worth I will fully expect all of these bull-bar hating do-gooders to forthwith be fitting this superb idea of mine to thier own vehicles...? If they don't, I'm sure they won't mind leaving their cars at home until they can come to terms with their conciences (sp?) for daring to travel on the roads without implementing my UTMOST of safety consious gizmos!!
If anyone's interested, I have some great ideas for vehicular transportation made from cotton along with rose tinted windcreens...?
HTH
moz :-)
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Why , Growler, have you ignored my earlier post which read.................."Forgot to add that, just last week, right outside my front door, I saw, with a perfect view, a small child (about 5 or 6) break away from her mother as they were about to cross the road on to the central island. I saw a car approach the scene at very sensible, low, speed and saw it do an emergency stop and narrowly miss the child. Had the child ran just a second or two earlier there would have been another statistic to add to the rest and in no way could the driver have been blamed. Had the driver had bullbars fitted, the injuries would, according to many statistics,(and certainly according to common sense) been worse than without.......and, I repeat, in no way could the driver have been held responsible for the accident - the child simply bolted across the road without ant warning whatsoever. Had an accident occurred with bullbars, I wonder if the driver would have felt any regret and continued to drive with them fitted - after the funeral, that is".
I'm really not sure how seriously to take you when you write.............Roads are for motor vee-hickels, pavements are for people. The twain are not supposed to meet, which is why things have been designed that way. If pedestrians are using the street other than at designated crossing points, then the impact must be presumed to be their fault until proven otherwise.
I was talking about a 5 or 6 year old girl here who, if I understand you, can readily be subjected to greater risk of injury because someone wants a bit of chrome adorning the front of their car. Her mother is going to feel bad enough anyway, never mind the fact that her kiddies head was just the right height to collide with the immovable steel bar in question. Yes, it would have been the childs fault. Is that sufficient justification to shrug shoulders and carry on regardless?
I don't believe that Clarky's 'bit of chrome' will protect him and his family from 'the other idiots'. It may well make matters worse as I said earlier due to the impairment of the crumple zone of his vehicle.
Incidentally, I hope that Clarky and the others with bullbars fitted have notified their insurance company of the modification. Many companies load the premium due to the liklihood of extra damage to the vehicle it's fitted to. If the company's not told , the insurance could be deemed invalid. How many bullbar users do this? Even if there's no loading, you still have to notify additions such as alloys, body modifications etc and bullbars come under the latter classification.
Lastly, I do not have any 'Anti SUV' leanings. On that you must take my word and I would be surprised if others here did.
Getting late - bedtime.
Regards,
KB.
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Well we can all play "what if" till the cows come home, but you can't run society on "what if's". Otherwise we'd never get out of bed in case we fell down the stairs.
Re my SUV closing shot, why is it no one in UK seems to have a sense of humour any more? Why does everybody want to prescribe for everybody else, regardless of the fact it's none of their business? Has there been a massive rise in Grauniad readership and consumption of brown rice which I missed? Is poking fun no longer PC?
Or is this the new caring society where everything that happens to anyone is someone else's fault?
What's more of a risk to wayward peds? My SUV with its bull-bar driven with reasonable care and attention or a bunch of 18 year old riceboys dragging off down the High St possibly in stolen cars, and possibly without licence or insurance?
If statistical probabilities have anything to do with it, and by what I read in these columns as often as anywhere, the incidence of the latter might well eclipse the times one encounters the former.
No one so far as I know has come up with any evidence to suggest bull-bar equipped vehicles have contributed to a massive rise in the severity of pedestrian injuries. The increase in the number of accidents might however have something to do with it.....
Having said that no doubt someone will now spend lots of what might have been enjoyable drinking time to come up with some numbers produced by a bunch of academics in a cave somewhere just for the pleasure of disproving me ;-) I can't wait.
Why don't we have done with it and make externally mounted front airbags compulsory? But then someone would come along and say that's all very well, but people might bounce off them and hurt themselves on a lamp-post or something. Ah, now there's a thing, lamp-posts.......
Now then I have a lot to do today so I must get on.
PS(....the mother's fault actually).
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Brief note, G, to acknowledge your post. I said yesterday that I'd put my points as best I could and reckon that the two corners are not going to agree. There are points in your reply that I could pursue but honestly reckon it would be taking up disk space, would get off the subject, and won't get us far and will raise hackles so I suggest calling it a day.
Regards,
KB.
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"why is it no one in UK seems to have a sense of humour any more? Why does everybody want to prescribe for everybody else, regardless of the fact it's none of their business? Has there been a massive rise in Grauniad readership and consumption of brown rice which I missed? Is poking fun no longer PC?
Or is this the new caring society where everything that happens to anyone is someone else's fault? "
To a depressingly large degree, yes.
Stay where you are Growler, secure in the knowledge that most of us have not the enterprise to come and annoy you out there!
Me, I'm too old as well as demoralized by public corporations!
Regards, and to Growlette too.
Tomo
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On a similar note, i was speaking to somebody completely anti-car, he won't be happy till all cars are banned, but his local group are now working on where the engines are situated, they're saying most pedestrian injurys are when people hit the bonnet which is flimsy and then hit the engine.
His best proposal was have all cars rear engined, obviously <1L, and a foam filled bonnet with thin plastic lid. Obviously a crackpot but bull bars could be construed as the thin end of a rather fat wedge.
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< >.
Ah, now we have an admission that pedestrians hit cars as well as the other way around... at last the poor ruddy motorist gets a break... What's wrong with a Keep Pedestrians Off The Road movement?
Next pedestrian wanders out in front of me better be glad I have a bullbar to save him from a bill for the repairs to my grill hehe....
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What's wrong with a Keep Pedestrians Off The Road movement?
You could argue that perhaps vehicles shouldn't park on the pavement either, but they do!! Seems that some people only buy 4x4's so they can easily mount the pavements outside the schoolyard - the only real time they ever go off road.
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Yes, parking on the pavement, which implies driving on the pavement, is an offence. I reckon far more motorists drive on the pavement than cyclists ever did, but who gets persecuted? ;-)
As for bullbars and the issue of prescribing what others can and can't do: I reckon having unnecessary bullbars on your vehicle is impinging (a little) on my right to live in a safe environment, since you have a choice about them and I don't. I'm not talking about mollycoddling here; life is dangerous and there's nothing we can do about it beyond a certain point. But the freedom to live in an environment free from avoidable and unnecessary risk is the basis for all civil societies and is the reason why we have police, streetlights, the highway code and so on. Third world countries often trumpet this idea of complete freedom for the individual but few have them seem to have spotted that a society where the middle classes go about in fear of their lives is never going to be anything but third world. Give me real freedom any day.
Chris
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Hear, hear, well said, Chris. We live in one of the most prosperous and safest countries in the world, in the most prosperous and safest time in its history. For all the UK's faults, we should bend down and kiss the ground!
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...what, with all that old chewing gum everywhere? yech! :-0
Just a point I think has been largely missed in this thread, quite regardless of views on the dreaded bull bars -- I hear a presumption that motorists are apparently always to blame for what happens to pedestrians.
I submit the latter have all the responsibilities of the former to comply with both regulations and norms of sensible behaviour and should suffer the same sanctions as the motorist if they come a cropper from failing to observe same.
On Jan 3rd last I was exiting Tunbridge Wells north towards the A26 and it was just getting light. 30 mph limit. Rounding a bend I came upon some loon running across in front of me, causing me to swerve and brake violently. I hooted (insofar as any UK car is capable of producing a "hoot", more like a squeak). This retard then starts abusing ME....... Had I hit him, bull-bar or no I wouldn't have lost a wink of sleep, clearly he was totally in the wrong.
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I thought the pedestrian v motorist argument had been done pretty thoroughly, not on this thread but on others.
I'm wondering if it might have been a good idea for you to slow down on this bend, in anticipation of possible unseen hazards up ahead?
And would you really have felt no conscience at all if you had hit and maybe killed this person?
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As Colin Powell said in another context a few weeks ago: "Like the President I also sleep like a baby. I wake up screaming every two hours."
Chris
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(1) I was driving extremely carefully because it was partly dark still, road was wet and I was reminding myself about driving on the "wrong side" from where I live and apart from a dashboard-mounted crystal ball could not have anticipated this example of stupidity.
(2) PM me and I'll answer your last question.
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The Growler: (suitable handle!)
Looks like this particular thread has scored a BULLSEYE!
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Indeed, I wonder what the UK has done to deserve such hatred? Even our car horns are useless!
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