There's loads of these wee cars up posh driveways that's been meticulously maintained by owners who use them for commuting or just shopping. There's no comeback on a private sale but there are real gems to be found out there
Arrgh, there you go again SLO76, glad the backroom doesn't have faceache readership volumes or those prime used gems would all be vanishing with new (now well informed) owners before i could get me worn our carcass moving..:-)
I agree with your post mind.
The only thing they didn't do for the model was to slip the 1.4Hdi Diesel lump in complete with turbo before DPF's were required, that would have been the modern Pug 205 and we'd be fighting over any that came up for sale.
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"The only thing they didn't do for the model was to slip the 1.4Hdi Diesel lump in complete with turbo before DPF's were required, that would have been the modern Pug 205 and we'd be fighting over any that came up for sale."
Ah memories.. 205 diesel was a brilliant motor, I ran one as one of my first company cars and I've flogged em with 200k plus up. Rattly dashboards but mechanically tough as old boots and proper ride quality too. Loved em. The C1/107/Aygo diesel didn't really work because the diesel weighs so much more than the tiny 3cyl petrol that it ruins the handling and economy on petrol is already great but basic mechanicals should be tough.
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Thanks for the sound advice. When you all talk of a Mk2 Aygo, what does that mean? 2009 or 2010 registration onwards? Would the C1 also be the same "mk2"? What is MMT, the name of a model?
Thanks also SL076 for the advice to consider other cars..Mazda2, Panda etc.
My hestitation with the Mazda2 (and Yaris also) was that I presumed as bigger cars, the insurance would be more. But having noted the comments above on first time drivers, maybe insurance wouldnt be significantly greater. My thinking was that the lower the engine size 1.0 etc, the less powerful the car will be so the insurance will be lower (other things being equal).
Were there any particular litre engine petrol manuals in these cars that are well regarded for reliability?
On a similar point, of all of the first time driver cars (manual, petrol) (Fiesta, Panda, Mazda 2, C1, Aygo, Peugot 107, Hyundai i10, Yaris) do any stand out for "least hassle" and optimal reliability? I dont know much about Mazda apart from being a Japanese firm, so I guess they are as good as any other manufacturer or as reliable as Toyota?
I can see some Mazda 2 for about £2300, which surprised me.
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MMT (Multi Mode Transmission) is Toyota's automated manual gearbox and best avoided, it's one of those rare occasions where the firm got it wrong. The manual is far better and rarely gives bother.
As far as insurance is concerned you'll have to get quotes but I don't expect that much difference between this lot to be honest, none of them are barnstorming performance cars.
Reliability wise the Japanese stuff is generally best but this includes the C1/107 which is mechanically a Daihatsu and the Fiesta 1.25/1.4 which uses a Yamaha designed engine and with care is fit to do 150k. Condition, mileage and history are all vital components of reliability though so a well looked after low mileage Fiat will be better than a tatty Aygo for example.
The Mazda 2 is a bit more civilised than the C1/107/Aygo especially for longer trips, they drive very well and as long as you avoid the diesels they rarely go wrong.
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If insurance cost is a big concern then I'd certainly steer away from the mazda 2, not sure about panda off the top of my head. But you might also consider the vw fox. These are group 1 for the 1.2 3 cylinder model, but even the 1.4 is only group 2 or 3. To be honest, they are a pretty dull, joyless little car to drive, but they feel more substantial than the C1/107/aygo, and with high set seats you get a good view out plus ample space for 4 adults. The basic models come with nasty looking unpainted bumpers, but colour coding on higher spec (same insurance group though) made all the difference. Also, if you want a slightly bigger car, consider the mk3 corsa 1.0 (about 2007 onwards) sit in group 3, but not all of them. To many trim differences to list here, but if you look up them up on the insurance group part of Parkers website, it lists each separate model with its insurance group. Have a look at the 1.2 version aswell, as (again, depending on trim level) it can be as low as group 3.
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If insurance cost is a big concern then I'd certainly steer away from the mazda 2, not sure about panda off the top of my head. But you might also consider the vw fox. These are group 1 for the 1.2 3 cylinder model, but even the 1.4 is only group 2 or 3. To be honest, they are a pretty dull, joyless little car to drive, but they feel more substantial than the C1/107/aygo, and with high set seats you get a good view out plus ample space for 4 adults. The basic models come with nasty looking unpainted bumpers, but colour coding on higher spec (same insurance group though) made all the difference. Also, if you want a slightly bigger car, consider the mk3 corsa 1.0 (about 2007 onwards) sit in group 3, but not all of them. To many trim differences to list here, but if you look up them up on the insurance group part of Parkers website, it lists each separate model with its insurance group. Have a look at the 1.2 version aswell, as (again, depending on trim level) it can be as low as group 3.
Sorry, incorrect info re the corsa, mk3 1.0 can be as low as group 1, 1.2 can be as low as group 4.
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Which Mazda 2?
The first generation 2 (2003-2007) wax a sister car to the Ford Fiesta/Fusion, in Europe used Ford mechanicals, and was built by Ford at the Fiesta/Fusion plant in Spain. Bullet proof aside from the automated manual gearbox.
The second generation (2007-2015) was built by Mazda in Japan and used Mazda petrol engines.
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Which Mazda 2?
The first generation 2 (2003-2007) wax a sister car to the Ford Fiesta/Fusion, in Europe used Ford mechanicals, and was built by Ford at the Fiesta/Fusion plant in Spain. Bullet proof aside from the automated manual gearbox.
The second generation (2007-2015) was built by Mazda in Japan and used Mazda petrol engines.
The 1st generation starts at insurance group 7, and the 2nd generation starts at insurance group 9. The little Mazda may well be a good car from a reliability point of view, but not for affordable insurance on a 1st car. With the huge cost of insurance for a young driver on their 1st car, so it needs to be taken into a bound. When my oldest son turned 17, my mother in law was thinking of putting him down as a named driver on her '06 Kia rio 1.4. I had a look and found it sits in group 13!. By comparison, a mk3 1.4 corsa can be as low as group 7. He decided he didn't need a car though, and that is still the case 2.5 years later!
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Car group is of very little consequence on premium. For young drivers its their age and also claim profile for the particular vehicle.
If a group 1 car has lots of claims from 18 year olds the premium may well be higher than a car in a higher group which youngsters avoid. My wife paid more for insurance in her Aygo than she did for her i20 group 9 and A class group 11.
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Which Mazda 2?
The first generation 2 (2003-2007) wax a sister car to the Ford Fiesta/Fusion, in Europe used Ford mechanicals, and was built by Ford at the Fiesta/Fusion plant in Spain. Bullet proof aside from the automated manual gearbox.
The second generation (2007-2015) was built by Mazda in Japan and used Mazda petrol engines.
It's the second gen cars from 2007 I'm on about which use the same floorpan and suspension as the Fiesta but use Mazda's excellent chain driven petrol engines and the same PSA diesels 1.4 & 1.6 as the Fiesta. These are excellent little cars and worth a few quid a month extra for insurance but this money is the bottom end for these so buy with care. The first gen cars were a bit boxy and used Fords Yamaha designed Zetec SE engines which are pretty good but are due a timing belt at 8yrs which is often neglected and likely to be overdue.
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Aygo.
Mk1 is up to 2014.
MMT . It's the term for Automatic transmission on the Aygo . I believe it's motorised mechanical transmission MMT do you see?
It's not a proper Torque Converter Auto. Still has a clutch. Which wears out. Changing it is usually a main dealer job as the system needs to be reset using tools usually only dealers have. Which is why it's so expensive. Can wear out in as little as 25k miles. You would need to pop it back into N when stationary. That stops it wearing prematurely I believe.
Or you could avoid the Auto version.
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Or you could avoid the Auto version.
Is the correct answer, if Toyota can't get this flawed thing to work properly no one can, it's been dropped on all but Aygo (and may well be gone from latest for all i know), quite why they went down this road at all i do not know.
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There are diesels out there, rare as hens teeth and only 53bhp. Mpg was no better than petrol so no point in them.
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There are diesels out there, rare as hens teeth and only 53bhp. Mpg was no better than petrol so no point in them.
It's of no use or concern to the OP, but the current C1 and 108 can also be had with the 81bhp version of the PSA groups 1.2 3 cylinder engine. An engine which can be had with up to 128bhp in turbo form. I can't help thinking how much fun that engine would be in a C1/108?!
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There are diesels out there, rare as hens teeth and only 53bhp. Mpg was no better than petrol so no point in them.
It's of no use or concern to the OP, but the current C1 and 108 can also be had with the 81bhp version of the PSA groups 1.2 3 cylinder engine. An engine which can be had with up to 128bhp in turbo form. I can't help thinking how much fun that engine would be in a C1/108?!
VW has fired their excellent 115bhp 1.0 TSi engine in the UP and created an excellent wee hot hatch and Renault has a 900cc 108bhp Twingo GT so it makes sense that PSA joins the club. I'd love a shot of a Pug 108 with an 128bhp triple under the bonnet. Thinking back to the success of the Saxo VTR/VTS with youngsters in the late 90's the firm could attract a new generation of young drivers if they price it right. The VW is too dear as usual to make big inroads at £15k plus but leave out all the unnecessary gadgets, pitch the 108 or C1 GTi in at £12k and offer subsided insurance and they'll be everywhere.
Edited by SLO76 on 04/06/2017 at 21:14
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There are diesels out there, rare as hens teeth and only 53bhp. Mpg was no better than petrol so no point in them.
It's of no use or concern to the OP, but the current C1 and 108 can also be had with the 81bhp version of the PSA groups 1.2 3 cylinder engine. An engine which can be had with up to 128bhp in turbo form. I can't help thinking how much fun that engine would be in a C1/108?!
VW has fired their excellent 115bhp 1.0 TSi engine in the UP and created an excellent wee hot hatch and Renault has a 900cc 108bhp Twingo GT so it makes sense that PSA joins the club. I'd love a shot of a Pug 108 with an 128bhp triple under the bonnet. Thinking back to the success of the Saxo VTR/VTS with youngsters in the late 90's the firm could attract a new generation of young drivers if they price it right. The VW is too dear as usual to make big inroads at £15k plus but leave out all the unnecessary gadgets, pitch the 108 or C1 GTi in at £12k and offer subsided insurance and they'll be everywhere.
As a lover of the 'Street sleeper', I think you would be hard pressed to beat, for amusement factor if nothing else, a suzuki celerio (a car which, though there is nothing wrong with, screams 'old biddy' from every pore) with the 1.0 boosterjet engine. Sign me up for one of those! (and being a suzuki, it would probably be cheaper too)
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The depth of your knowledge is bewildering! I feel like you guys can build a car from scratch while I am still figuring out how to open its door!
To be clear, insurance doesnt seem to be just about age. I am a late learner in 30s and even so, inserting some details of a Panda produced £1500-£1800 quotes. I looked at Parkers to figure out which Insurance Class these vehicles were and it doesnt always correlate to a low quote.
I think when you are so new to this all as much as I am, you need a car that just..well...works well, because gaining experience and confidence on the roads, horrible large roundabouts and so on is. I am happy to bear a slightly higher insurance cost in order to get a more reliable car, but that is the thing I find odd. Insurance is supposed to factor in repair frequency + cost of those repairs, so I would have thought a reliable car has lower insurance.
Bottom line is that it seems as if I should add Mazda2 (the 2007 onward version) to my search and get a good car, but pay a bigger premium for that piece of mind. Or the Fox..
High seats is a good idea. Is the Fox and Panda the only cars in this lot that can raise seat height?
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You will find that most cars in the 'city car' class (fox, panda, C1 etc) have at least slightly raised seating positions for packaging reasons. If the rear (which is where it makes a difference) seats are set high, passengers legs will be going straight down, so less length is needed. If the seat is lower, those same passengers legs are going to be sticking out forward at an angle, which on a bigger car is not going to be a problem, but on a city car there isn't the space. So the passengers would end up in an uncomfortable position. I doubt you would find a higher seating position than the fox for the kind of car you are after at the price you want. Possibly the panda 4x4 might be higher, as it has raised ground clearance over the regular panda (itself also quite tall). But the Mazda, though a good car, has a low seating position to reflect its sporty nature. You may want to look at a ford Fusion though, based on the fiesta but taller and boxier. My wife had one back in 2005 for 3 years. She gets a motability car due to leg and lower back problems, so the higher seats were not only easier for her to get in and out of, but gives a better view. Also, the squared off lines made it easier to place on the road. A range of 4 engines and 3 types of gearbox were available, but you want the 1.4 petrol with manual gearbox like we did. Not sure about long term issues, (maybe SLO can help here) but absolutely nothing went wrong with ours in the 3 years we had it. I thought, and still do, that the Fusion is a fantastic and very underrated little car.
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"Not sure about long term issues, (maybe SLO can help here) but absolutely nothing went wrong with ours in the 3 years we had it. I thought, and still do, that the Fusion is a fantastic and very underrated little car."
Just a Fiesta with a taller more practical body and a lower price tag used thanks to the ungainly styling. But nothing really wrong with them. Doesn't handle as well because of the higher centre of gravity but they use the same Yamaha designed petrol engines or PSA 1.4 diesel and are generally pretty robust with exception of the later 1.6 diesels. Good used buy if cheap enough. Most of them are owned by older drivers who really look after them and do little mileage. Just like the Honda Jazz it's rare to find an abused boy racer owned example. Post Nov 05 facelift cars are much better made and nicer looking inside, earlier dashboards are pretty flimsy and rattle prone. £1,000 will get a good, car with effort £2k will get a lovely facelifted example with low mileage. Nowhere near as economical as an Aygo/C1/107 though.
Edited by SLO76 on 05/06/2017 at 09:56
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