Overtaking - or NOT ! - steveb
Was following a Freelander Td4 through a quiet country village this morning at the posted limit - 30. At the end of the village and the restriction, the road opens up straight - so decided to go for the overtake. The guy in the FL had obviously anticipated the move, and used the torque of the diesel to accelerate and prevent the overtake. Now this is obviously a clever game for this guy and created a dangerous situation with the next corner coming up fast.

Was therefore forced to follow behind him for the next five miles, at the national limit on the straights, but slowing down dramatically for the corners as it obviously couldn't at any speed.

Do I remember correctly that it is illegal (!) to prevent an overtake in this way, creating a dangerous situation ?

Letting the overtake happen at the start would have let us each go on our respective ways at minimal inconvenience to each other.

Steve
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
Well, he could have been a complete saddo who just didn't like being overtaken (though how many of us have never felt that primeval impulse?), or just someone who, like you, wanted to travel at the limit.

Not being funny Steve, but if he was driving at the legal limit on the straights how could you have overtaken him anyway?

I see the underlying logic in what you're saying, but was this really a big issue?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
I can really see his point, as I've had this a few times before. Possibly the worst was when I got stuck behind a BMW who would race up to the limit on straights where there was a chance to pass, but on anything even remotely twisty or where there was not enough forward visibility to make the pass safely he was down to 30 or even less at times. I don't know if he just didn't know the road or was having a bit of 'fun' but it certainly cost me about 20 minutes or so on the journey when I just wanted to get home.

I suppose it's one of these annoying things - they don't have to drive at the speed you want to, they don't have to let you past or even make it easy for you to get past, but is a little bit of consideration that much to ask?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Ben79
Reminds me of my drive on Boxing Day, my 1.4 Xsara with 4 people was out-handling a BMW X5 V8 on some hairpin bends in Northumberland.

The gap between us would rapidly diminish on the straights between the multiple uphill hairpins.

Needless to say, once at the top of the hill, he overtook.

Ben
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
Allow me to be Devil's Advocate for a moment.

I'm the man in the BMW, and I've got this guy who, despite my attempts to maintain a sensible distance on the straights, keeps sticking to my tail.

He isn't showing me much consideration, so I'll just drive how I want to drive...
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Allow me to be Devil's Advocate for a moment.


If you wish, but the scenario you describe is a bit different from the one I was in. This chap wasn't just maintaining a sensible distance on the straights - he was flooring it *where there was an overtaking opportunity* but hanging right back where there wasn't. Also, I'm not the sort to tailgate someone anyway - for starters if you are too close then you can't see past them to see if there is an overtaking opportunity. Either they were *very* unsure of the handling capabilities of the car, or as I say, they were bored and decided to have a laugh.

It would have cost him nothing to hold back off the gas for a few seconds on a straight to allow me to get past and get on my way, instead he was getting me more and more irate - even my mother who is a bit of a potterer on country lanes commented that he was going a bit slowly.

Actually, I now recall I had a similar thing on the same piece of road with a Fiesta a few weeks back. He wasn't impressed when my little Yaris burned him off up a hill though - he was obviously trying to keep me back there but failed.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - eMBe {P}
>>' but it certainly cost me about 20 minutes or so on the
journey >>


Assuming you were forced to travel at 30mph instead of your preferred 60mph i.e. you were travelling at half the speed you preferred, then
To cover 20 miles at 30 mph takes 40 minutes.
To cover 20 miles at 60 mph takes 20 minutes.

So to lose your 20 minutes, means that you were unable to find a safe passing place for over 20 miles.

In the above example I have been generous. If the speed differntial between you and the BMW was not as great as I have assumed, then it means that you were unable to find a safe overtaking point for far more than the 20 miles in the example above. What does that suggest about driving skills?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
In reply to MoBo,

Quite possible - I think we picked him up just after Shrewsbury, and it's about 40 miles from there until you get on the good roads around (Middlewich?)

He was down to 20 or 25 on some bends, and as I say, come a good overtaking spot he used his power to get up to 55 or 60 much faster than I could, and on those roads you don't get overly long straights, so by the time I'd caught him up, there wasn't space to overtake. As I had a passenger, I wasn't inclined to push really hard and take marginal risks - I'd be unlikely to anyway, but even less so when there is someone else in with me.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Cyd
I would say that as the FL exited the 30 and entered an NSL, he was perfectly entitled to increase his speed and you should have appreciated this. Similarly you are entitled to overtake, but it is up to you to do so safely. If you don't have the power to overtake another vehicle which is also accelerating, then IMHO it's tough luck.

It may well be that he was toying with you knowing you couldn't get past and for this I sympathise - he could have been more considerate and allowed you to pass at some point. I drive country A + B roads to work every day and come across this often - it serves to remind me why I drive a 200 bhp turbo car.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - steveb
Don't get me wrong - this isn't a case of sour grapes - I'm all for people using their BHP where appropriate - I've got 150 which IMO is enough to safely get past most traffic in normal circumstances. I really doubt whether 200 would have made the difference in this case given the torque differential.

Steve
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
It's not clear from what you say that he was trying to block your overtake. It is good driving practice to drive at the limit if conditions allow so as not to slow others. He could have thought that since you were following then he had better make good progress and hence step on it when he could so as not to annoy you. Just not quite what you would have preferred!

If he accelerated after you started overtaking, then yes that is inadvisable though not specifically illegal. Maybe a plod in a jam butty seeing this might do him for dangerous driving or at least have words.

It can't have been completely unexpected that on reaching the NSL he would accelerate. What I am wondering is what you wanted him to do and how he would know. (I tend to be the car in front if you hadn't guessed!)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - steveb
Sorry - it was definitely a case of spoiling the overtake - on seeing my indication he speeded up to way beyond the speedlimit, and beyond the point where it would have been safe to continue the overtake. He then had to brake strongly to make it round the next corner ... There was no way I was going to risk continuing the manouever in those circumstances !

Steve
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
Of course he might not have seen you - indicating poor observation skills - though you are convinced he was 'spoiling an overtake' and I can understand your annoyance at such behaviour.

A Yaris huh. Some people don't like a small car in front of them. Even if it has loads of horses under the bonnet.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
A Yaris huh. Some people don't like a small car in
front of them. Even if it has loads of horses under
the bonnet.


It has very little to do with car size or power TBH. You can hussle a smaller car or use the power or a larger car, but if someone wants to go faster than you do, or you are prepared to do, then actively preventing them passing and then slowing them down when they can't pass is a bit naughty.

(BTW, you do realise there are two Steves in this thread?)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
The point I was trying to make, though maybe not very well, was simply that some people don't like the idea of a 'small' car in front. It can be a case of "I'm not letting that get in front of me." I get much less of this since selling the Micra and getting a Ka, though it might just be due to improved driving skills on my part i.e. I can better anticipate nutters and position myself accordingly well in advance. Though if someone does something daft like accelerate after I start overtaking then there aint much I can do.

BTW, you do realise there are two Steves in this thread?
Yes. These things happen. There is only one Leif in this thread though.

Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Surely there isn't that much difference between a Micra and a Ka? Granted I only had a brief drive in each, but the Micra felt nippier than the Ka anyway...

(I thought you'd got the two Steves mixed up BTW as you commented on his message then mentioned the Yaris which is mine...)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Cliff Pope
I think one has to accept that there is a proportion of drivers who a) will try to overtake anything, especially if it is smaller or older, and/or b) who resent being overtaken and will do almost anything to prevent it.

I try to remember the Ripley advice - it is not worth trying to engage with these people, better just to stay alive and let them get on their way and out of mine.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Gen
I drive through 30s at exactly 30, and when reach a 60 I will accelerate to 60. Don't want to risk a ticket, but don't want to waste time. If you really want to overtake someone who is going from a 30 to a 60 and you don't have the power, suggest you start the overtake 30 to 50 metres before the 60 zone starts. It's what white van men seem to have learnt to do, so it must be right...
Overtaking - or NOT ! - TrevP
I drive through 30s at exactly 30, and when reach a 60 I will accelerate to 60

Ditto. Firmly.

Now if chummy who has been crawling all over me
(perhaps attempting to show me "that 30 is not fast enough"?)
decides to attempt an overtake as we pass the NSL sign, is left standing because I have gone 30-60 MUCH faster than him,
and decides that "I am denying him an overtake", so be it.

I am not (perhaps fortunately) psychic, so I do not know what other people are thinking.
Pehaps others put their own motivations onto other driver's actions?
OR perhaps such actions are NOT deliberately offensive, merely incompetent
OR doing "an A-level" action when the onlooker is at "O-level"?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
Oops. Yes I did confuse the Yaris owner.


Surely there isn't that much difference between a Micra and a Ka?


Performance wise the Ka is a little more perky. However in practice I find I don't get much aggression driving the Ka whereas in the Micra it could get quite bad. Maybe you can tell me why?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Alfafan {P}
I have to say that if I find myself behind someone who is causing me to get agitated, ( eg driving too slowly, excessive use of brakes, general air of incompetence), I'll often pull in, wait a few minutes and then resume my journey. OK, I'll be delayed for a while, but I've removed the cause of my frustration and I won't be tempted to try something risky to pass the plonker.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - smokie
Same here Alf, sometimes.

I have also learnt the lesson from Formula 1 that if I might need a pee or fuel, and I join a traffic jam, or slow traffic, then I dive off at the first services.

Sometimes when you rejoin the motorway the traffic jam has gone...

However don't go off at the first junction you reach (I mean NOT services) as sometimes there can be an awful build up of traffic waiting to join the motorway if there have been problems.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Good advice where possible. Trouble is, you'll usually either catch them up within a few minutes but with a load of cars between you and them, or they'll have pulled off themselves 50 yards down the road!

You've hit the main point though - it's the frustration that is the main danger here, both to your health and as a potential contributor to an accident.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - moyra
There's no point at getting wound up at Freelander Man (or whatever car). Be comforted in the knowledge that he's obviously lacking in other departments and feels the need to prove his worth by driving like a stroker!
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Steve G
If somebody wants to overtake me then I will gladly oblige happy in the knowledge that if Mr Plod is further up the road I wont be the one who is stopped.
The Freelanders driving could be classed as dangerous and in some cases would probably lead to the kind of road rage incidents we hear about.
Like others have said its him with the problem so its not worth risking yourself for the sake of saving time off your journey.
Having said that, such incidents can raise the stress levels !

(Steve - Number 3)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - carayzee
Simple solution to all this. If you're struggling to overtake a Freelander diesel on a straight, then get a faster car.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - James_Jameson
The Freelander driver was clearly behaving like a child (with apologies to children).

It\'s this sort of selfish driving that you don\'t seem to see in other countries.

It shouldn\'t matter what the speed is at the time of the incident, if someone wishes to pass you, then try to let them do so (at least try not to stop them). The roads are crowded enough as it is without this sort of pettyness.

What does it gain anyone to irritate like this? I would have to assume that such a person works for a local authority (highways department) or some such department with a \"bit\" of power, often used to frustrate the driver (or maybe someone with no other type of power at all in their life).
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Rob C
If I can chip in here, as the owner of a very powerful car I have experienced this many, many times. It seems certain people would prefer to witness a head-on collision (fatal) then be overtaken by a sports car on a long and safe straight.

What these people need to understand, before they deliberately speed up to prevent me overtaking, is that faced with a potential head-on, its far safer for me to just side swipe them off the road. At least I get to survive, even if they don't.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - DWR
In all the posts supporting SteveB there is the usual assertion of a divine right by the person behind (who is perceiving themselves as the more *important* driver) to make a certain manoeuvre, perhaps at the expense of the Freelander's progress.

A FL turbo diesel has this excellent mid range torque such that the FL driver may have been simply pulling away normally and been unaware he was giving a 150bhp car such trouble.

But the real point of the problem here is how would the Freelander driver know you were going to drive faster than him for the rest of the journey anyway? He could have deferred to your overtake only to find you held him up on the straights.

No stick me in a corner with Cyd and TrevP here, let the folks who hassle you at the end of a 30 limit pass after you have both settled to the open road speed limit. If they don't have the power to safely do so then tough.

D
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
I think a lot depends on the situation. In general someone who is prepared to try and overtake isn't going to then potter along holding you up. If they are prepared to try and get past then it's safest to let them do so.

If you are honestly making a decent effort to make progress and are obviously holding up a car behind you, then what you do is down to your personality really - you can either do them a favour and make it easy for them to pass where safe, or you can ignore them and get on with that you are doing. TBH, IMO as long as you are making a decent attempt then it's up to you.

However, if you are either unsure of the road or where you want to be, or are simply pottering then it's a bit b*****-minded to actively prevent people passing.

Whether you make room for them to pass or just let them find an opportunity is up to you - actively making it hard is not really on.

What I find probably most annoying are the 'roaring 40's' type drivers who cruise up behind you in a 30 limit, pass because they want to do 40 rather than the limit, then once it opens out to 60 only accelerate up to about 45 so you catch them and get held up more...
Overtaking - or NOT ! - DWR
>>What I find probably most annoying are the 'roaring 40's' type drivers who cruise up behind you in a 30 limit, pass because they want to do 40 rather than the limit, then once it opens out to 60 only accelerate up to about 45 so you catch them and get held up more...

Absolutely Steve and this behaviour can be extended to those who *force* past in the last few yard of the 30 limit, or while you're gaining speed on the exit, assuming because you *only* did 30 in a village then you'll poodle on the open road.

D
Overtaking - or NOT ! - CM
SteveB,

Without being there it is hard to say but I think that you might be in the wrong (I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything)

Basically you were putting yourself in danger by trying to overtake an accelerating car, who was driving in a manner that I do. I obey the speed limits in town and then open up a bit when the NSL signs appear.

If you were going to overtake the Freelander surely it would have been better to do it when he wasn't trying to legally double his speed, but wait until he had slowed his acceleration.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - volvod5_dude
Sounds like a typical Freelander driver. Big chip on shoulder because they can't afford a proper 4x4. Out-gunned by a TD4 what on earth were you driving?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - smokie
I agree with CM, he was perfectly within his rights to accelerate out of the NSL and under no obligation to let you by. Why should he? He had the intention of driving at NSL (as you mentioned) and slowing for corners (I usually do that too) so your move probably looked and felt intentionally and unnecessarily aggressive to him.

Overtaking - or NOT ! - smokie
btw I can be cruel with my torque too - there is a one way, two lane road here which splits into a T at the end, each side of a bollard. So if you are filtering right you use the right lane and for filtering left use the left lane. The main flow of traffic is going right.

The exception is the Saxo boys who tear up the left (30 mph limit) intending to turn right, then force themselves in at the last minute. Well, not in front of me they don't. One stopped within about an inch of the bollard with huge squeal of tyres, and another two have had to take the left turn which they didn't really want to. The wonders of torque...

I've also caused people to miss their turn off motorways slip roads (notably M3 to Bagshot) when they carve in at the last minute expecting me to drop back and let them in front (and I MEAN the LAST minute - after the slip road has already started, they are still in lane2, yes, THOSE ones).

Yes I'm proud of these little bits of recklessness. Oh, and generally I am a very considerate driver and will allow people out/in/whatever where I believe they have made a genuine mistake or misjudgement. Feel free to point out the error of my ways, I already know them!!! :-)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Sad to say, smokie, but I'd subscribe that chain of thought. I don't like people who try and get away with thing and while I won't actively oppose them or create a dangerous situation, neither will I sit around and just let them take the mick.

Even then it can get you in some dangerous situations - like when some idiot in a Mondeo almost drove me in to a line of parked cars when trying to exit a roundabout in a second lane that wasn't there. I can only assume he was expecting me to have seen him almost alongside me indicating to come off and slammed the anchors on so me could get off before me. As it was, he exited part alongside me and then accelerated hard, mirrors almost touching so I couldn't move out as I needed to.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - The exsanguinator
Goodness gracious: don't you people have jobs? Why on earth are you spending so long on the internet discussing something as banal as overtaking? Haven't you heard of reading a book, going for a walk in the country or watching an intellectually stimulating film?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - smokie
Glad you found us Ex.

I was just thinking along similar lines...every time I intend leaving, someone updates a post. Just can't tear myself away today...

(Are there any intellectually stimulating films? I've virtually given up all screen "entertainment" in recent years, except the computer screen of course...)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Gen
Ah but now you're one of us Exsanguinator...don't hate yourself too much
Overtaking - or NOT ! - HF
Ah but now you're one of us Exsanguinator...don't hate yourself too
much

Lol, he wll grow to hate himself for this, over time.

Exsangwhatever - welcome, and give us a chance before dismissing us?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - deere3350
Absolutely spot on Smokie. The trick is to predict the ones who are going to pull a fast one at the last minute. It doesn't half put the anticipation and observation skills to the test.
Very satisfying to give a nutjob something to think about and add a bit on to their journey as well. :)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
Hmm. There might soon be some Russian tanks going cheap. One careful owner, Iraqi markings on side, one or two recently added ventilation holes. One of those'd teach a boy racer a lesson.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Flat in Fifth
" Hmm. There might soon be some Russian tanks going cheap. One
careful owner, Iraqi markings on side, one or two recently added
ventilation holes. One of those'd teach a boy racer a lesson."


But they just might be in desert camouflage, one version of which is (or at least used to be) pink. Bring back any memories?

Sitting firmly in the unpopular corner here with Cyd, TrevP and DWR

The only exception to that is that when the vehicle starts its overtake if
a) I'm pre acceleration point or
b)mid acceleration mode, ie up to about 50, then I hold exactly whatever speed I've reached at that point in time.

i.e. let em get past until it becomes clear that a change in speed down (or even up) is necessary as required by the circumstances.

The principle being that starting or continuing to accelerate hard could be seen as a spoiling manoeuvre. Better the enemy in front than behind.

However, and this might just be an observation on the segment of driving population who do this it's more often that I'm subsequently held up in the NSL following as they eventually settle down and bumble on at their own comfort speed. ho hum

Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
I think there are two different driving factors that can contribute to this problem. Firstly, many people simply aren't happy to stick to low speed limits. I think less than 5% of drives around here are happy to stick to 30 and I've been ribbed at work a few times for doing so myself. The drivers that want to speed usually assume that as you'll stick to 30 then you'll bumble along once the limit increases. As I noted above, many of them will not do the full limit themselves, but will pass because they perceive you to be slower.

The other problem is that some drivers (such as myself) are more prepared to take risks on NSL roads - after all, technically you should take corners slowly enough to avoid obstacles around them which in most cases is a lot slower than they can be comfortably taken in a modern car. It's satisfying and does allow you to make good progress though.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - eMBe {P}
steveb and steveH42: Reading your posts, I can only make one suggestion in the best interests of other motorists - perhaps you should both invest in an advanced driving course. I also hope SteveH42 is now sure that he is legally insured and that his Insurance Company is aware of his driving style!
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
I feel I'm being got at here, but have no idea as to just what you mean. I can't see how an advanced driving course will help safely deal with people who are intentionally holding us up, and I'd appreciate an insight in to your wisdom as to where my driving style could be improved.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
Let's pop the question then, Steve: how do you think you can safely deal with people who, in your opinion, are intentionally holding you up?

BTW, my driving's no better than the next man.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
You can't really. Try and be patient for a good overtaking place, don't risk anything daft and just accept that some people are either idiots or just don't realise they are being avoidably annoying.

Personally, I tend to end up being frustrated as I am overly-cautious when it comes to overtaking and driving a low powered car allows those that want to to take the mick all the want.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Flat in Fifth
Steveb, sorry can't let that go,

so people who choose to drive slower than you are "idiots" or "intentionally holding you up" or "being avoidably annoying"

?!?

Sorry but the chapter in Roadcraft on attitude is well worth a read even if you ignore the rest.

------------------------------------------
I'm not perfect, not even half way there.... yet! but just keep on trying. The day I stop learning is the day I'll surrender my licence.

wrong steve oops! - Flat in Fifth
oops got the steves confused meant h42 version.... I think.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Sorry, FiF I probably wasn't clear enough and led you to misunderstand. I mean those who make it hard or dangerous to pass, not people driving slower in general. If they want to drive slower than I wish to go then I have no problem with that and will not try and hassle them in to going faster. However, if they block overtaking manouvers or opportunities in a seemingly intentional manner then I regard them as idiots. Also, as I pointed out, it is possible these people might simply not realise what they are doing is causing a problem - the chap in the BMW who slowed right down other than on straights may simply have not realised it was possible to go faster, but he might also have been out to annoy others - who can tell? It should have been obvious that myself and the train of cars, vans and buses behind me wanted to get past him but he made it impossible, thus avoidably annoying.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Flat in Fifth
OK SteveH42, there got it right this time!

Agreed! its the intentional blocking or playing games thats stupid. Jeepers, driving is probably the most dangerous thing most of us do each day so anyone who deliberately engages in provocative or similar behaviours need a brain test.

The beemer driver with the train behind could have been the first to complain if following DW on his tractor going to mow a meadow. ;-)

Mind you a lot of that about you know, don't do what I do but....
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
I always do 30 or less as appropriate in a 30 (unless I miss the signs) and often find someone behind flashing their lights for me to speed up. Recently I had a very nasty situation exiting a roundabout. This seems to be a favourite place for nutters to overtake whilst maximising risk.

To be honest this is the sort of thing I had hoped to learn to manage better from advanced driving lessons, but no such luck.

In the situation decribed, I think I would try and keep left and hold a constant speed so the person behind could overtake, though I tend to hit 60 ASAP on going from a 30 to an NSL and usually I leave the following car well behind. They usually don't expect me to move quickly.

NB: I'm not for a minute suggesting either Steve carries out such dodgy moves.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Robert J.
I hope this attempt at a post is more successful than my last.
I seem to recall a similar case in an article by the Daily Telegraph motoring section's legal expert. In that case, if memory serves me right, driver A was travelling along a dual carriage which was about to reduce to single. Driver B decides to overtake A and you can guess the rest. B runs out of space as the road narrows and is in collision with an on-coming car. B was seriously injured. A is sued by B for not helping to ensure the manoeuvre was completed safetly and putting him in danger. According to the legal expert, this was the normal course of events. B was awarded damages because A, aware of B's intentions, should have slowed to allow B to pass safely (case law). However, A appealed and surprisingly won. According to the appeal court A did not slow to aid B's overtaking manoeuvre, but he did not accelerate or obstruct him either. The dangerous situation that occured was entirely caused by B who should have ensured he could have completed the manoevre safetly without relying on A to help.
In other words, if someone tries to overtake you, don't obstruct them.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
If you are correct, Robert, then it is good to hear the law has a degree of common sense here. It should always be up to the overtaker to make sure it is safe, but anyone adding danger cannot then avoid responsibility.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
'In other words, if someone tries to overtake you, don't obstruct them.'

That's not how I read it Robert.

The legal principle the appeal has established is that the overtaker must be reasonably sure he can complete his maneouvre without relying on the person being overtaken to modify his speed/course.

In other words, you're on your own!
Overtaking - or NOT ! - DavidHM
You're both right to a certain extent. I vaguely remember the case - I posted it here somewhere, but basically it boils down to the principle that there is no duty of care owed to another driver to enable him to carry out a dangeorus manouevre. If necessary, he should be able to bring the car to a complete stop or overtake safely.

On the other hand, the comments about what would happen in the case of intentional blocking are referred to as obiter dicta. I don't recall which court this was heard in, but assuming this was the Court of Appeal they would have strong persuasive value if those circumstances arose. Insurance companies and their lawyers probably wouldn't even bother to litigate but would accept blame if it could be shown that the driver being overtaken intentionally blocked the other.

Evidentially, that would be difficult, if not impossible, which is another reason why there is probably no direct case law on this point. Finally, even if damages were to be awarded against the overtakee, it's highly likely that the court would find an element of contributory negligence by the overtaker, assuming there was some way he could back out of the manoeuvre by braking, etc., before the accident. This means that the financial incentive for insurers to litigate on this point is also significantly reduced as it is possible to have contributory negligence of over 50%...
Overtaking - or NOT ! - eMBe {P}
>> Was therefore forced to follow behind him for the next five
miles, at the national limit on the straights, but slowing down
dramatically for the corners as it obviously couldn't at any speed. >> Steve



Just examine what this fuss is about.
First assume that the FL driver was driving as alleged in a deliberate manner to frustrate steveb's overtaking manouvre. (This may not have been the case at all from his point of view).
Then callculate the effect on Steveb's journey. Assume that because of the FL driver, steveb was forced to drive for 5 miles at 45mph rather than 60mph he preferred. 5 miles at 60mph takes 5 minutes, 5 miles at 45mph takes 7.5minutes. So two and a half minutes of steveb's time was wasted. It caused him so much aggro that he went home fuming and had to post here in order to get the rage out of his system. I hope it has succeeded for steveb. SteveH42 on the other hand still seeems to be fuming about a BMW incident from some while back!

IMHO, with all due respect, etc., the message I get is that we have potentially very dangerous drivers here whose rage is supported by some others. Clearly some instruction in the art of safe (rage-free) driving would not go amiss for some of these drivers.

Chill out. Stop for a couple of minutes. Take a deep breath. Listen to some soothing classical music. But dont have an accident.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
MoBy: I would be careful about ascribing a state of mind to Steveb and then leaping to a logical conclusion, especially when that involves calling him potentially very dangerous.

Seems to me he was asking our opinions on something that annoyed him. From time to time something on the road annoys me, but that is not to say I get angry. I rarely get angry. As you say, that would be dangerous. Not so long ago I saw something very dangerous (not involving me). I was annoyed at seeing such dangerous driving, but no more.

Otherwise your advice is good.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Obsolete
MoBy: Just realised it might not have been Steveb you referred to. But I stand by the posting.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Shortwing Rob
A question.

There has been an implicit assumption in several of the postings that more torque = faster acceleration.

I'm not sure this is the case.

So 150 bhp petrol Freelander (If such exists) and 150 bhp diesel Freelander line up side-by-side, is the diesel quicker bnecause its torque figure is higher?

R
Overtaking - or NOT ! - DavidHM
Through the gears, almost certainly not. Of course, you'd probably get the best acceleration from (say) 30 mph in second. Of course, having cruised through a 30 mph zone and then decided to accelerate away, if you are trying to acccelerate away you are quite likely to be in fourth.

Even if the car overtaking has more power (or strictly, a better power to weight ratio) that power is not likely to be available at the ~1500 revs that a car will be in when doing 30 in fourth. You can drop down a gear to make up for the gap in available (rather than peak) power, but to do so means waiting to align the gears and even this will give the torquier car a certain advantage, that might be cancelled out by the other car's higher revs. Equally, or because the driver might not want to make the engine sscream, it might not.

That's why torque, in the real world, is more important than pure power, unless of course you like driving everywhere in second like some kind of insane baseball capped Novaboy.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - steveb
Guys - we need to bring this thread to a close !

It's certainly been my most successful however - obviously overtaking (or NOT) has struck a chord ...

I've been following this thread with interest, given that I started it. I thought I'd clarify a few points -

I am a safe driver.
I am not an aggressive driver.
I have never had an accident in 17 years of driving.
I have no points on my licence.
I NEVER D&D.
I am not perfect however (despite the above) and therefore I am going to join the IAM this year and take the test.


however -

I will overtake if safe, legal, and apparently able to do so.
I don't (and didn't) fume about the above incident, and "post it here to get it out of my system". Indeed, it's served its purpose to highlight a real-world driving issue - with potentially catastrophic results.

Hope this helps - let's move on.

Steve
Overtaking - or NOT ! - eMBe {P}
steveb - glad to know you have never had an accident but will still take the IAM course/test.

SteveH42 - wonder whether you have ever run into the back of the car in front? and why you do not wish to take the IAM route? Did you see my post above, copied again here in case you did not:

>>' but it certainly cost me about 20 minutes or so on the
journey >>


Assuming you were forced to travel at 30mph instead of your preferred 60mph i.e. you were travelling at half the speed you preferred, then
To cover 20 miles at 30 mph takes 40 minutes.
To cover 20 miles at 60 mph takes 20 minutes.

So to lose your 20 minutes, means that you were unable to find a safe passing place for over 20 miles.

In the above example I have been generous. If the speed differntial between you and the BMW was not as great as I have assumed, then it means that you were unable to find a safe overtaking point for far more than the 20 miles in the example above. What does that suggest about driving skills?
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
SteveH42 - wonder whether you have ever run into the back
of the car in front?


Yes, I do make occasional mistakes. Once when someone changed lane infront of me in heavy rain thus obstructing my view and before I had time to react and fall back had to brake hard - in hindsight something I should have anticipated more and something I modified my driving style as a result of, and once when I misjudged how someone was taking a junction. Both were low speed and I like to think I've leared from both, but as I say, I don't claim to be perfect.
and why you do not wish
to take the IAM route?


I don't recall ever saying I didn't wish to take that route. I did investigate it at one point but I think I found that were I was living at the time was poorly covered by the IAM and it got forgotten over time, probably aided by comments from others that it was a waste of time.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
SteveH42 on
the other hand still seeems to be fuming about a BMW
incident from some while back!


Hardly fuming, just pointing out that it was something that was a bit annoying at the time and need not have been so. As I say, I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or was just oblivious, but either way I hope had I been in that position I would have realised and not acted in that manner.

What I am doing I think it allowing myself to give a poor impression rather than claiming my bridge...
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
Steve,

if you don't fancy the IAM route (and it really is worth a go) then do the old deep breath and count to 10.

We all know there are plenty of prats around, some of whom drive like little Hitlers, some of whome get a power kick, but the sanest, safest tactic is to steer clear of them - even when it measn backing off or turning off
Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
You know, I think I've given the impression here that I get really wound up by these people. TBH, when I'm driving I rarely do, certainly not enough to do anything foolish. Having a bit of a moan about it is the way I find to deal with it. I can't see IAM training making it any safer for me to pass these people as I don't unless I'm totally sure it is safe - for my sins I'm very cautious with thinks like overtaking and pulling out. (I'm not knocking IAM training and if anyone can suggest ways to find more around Stockport then I'll look in to it!)
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Morris Ox
It would take the patience of a saint not to.

What appealed to me mos about my IAM training in retrospect was that it made me realise what a multi-faceted skills driving really was and that you could get pleasure out of it no matter what the speed.

The best moment of all was following my instructor's advice and slowing down through an urban traffic light system. Everybody rushed past me but, because I was travelling at around the speed the lights were set to control, I hit green all the way.

I also like hanging back from gaggles of traffic clearly itching to overtake. let them have their fun, choose your moment, and do it when the fuss had died down...or don't do it all because you know the road system well enough to realise the overtakers are all sitting at a junction about to be caught up by the person they've overtaken.

Doesn't always give you the adrenaline thrill, but that's where the skill is.

Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
Doesn't always give you the adrenaline thrill, but that's where
the skill is.


TBH, the only time driving is a real pleasure is when there is no-one infront or behind you so you can go at your own pace without worrying. Otherwise, you are always having to worry about what the other person is doing or wants to do.

I think the only reason I encounter this as much as I do is that I prefer to use the back roads to motorway driving, simply because it is more interesting. However, when you get stuck behind someone it can cost you chunks of time if you are driving a long distance - the main advantage of the motorway network.
Overtaking - or NOT ! - Bilgewater
I once came up behind a Morris Marina that was following a slow moving truck. Every time someone tried to pass him and drop in between him and the truck he closed the gap to try and and keep them on the wrong side of the road.
After watching him perform this deadly trick on several cars I waited for a clear straight so I could pass both him and the truck together. Sure enough as I drew level with him he closed up almost under the tailboard of the truck, but what he hadn't noticed was a large stone wedged between the trucks rear tyres which suddenly flew out and smashed his windscreen.
Oh how I laughed all the way home.


Overtaking - or NOT ! - SteveH42
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about - people making it harder. I tend to take the view that if I can't get past then I'd rather hang back so other, more confident drivers have a safety net if they need it. The only trouble there is that you tend to get swamped from behind when you do get a good chance to pass.

 

Value my car