HGV security - brum

Following yesterdays atrocity, it seems to me that an urgent update/rethink of HGV security / reporting / safety systems is required.

Rip the poor hgv driver and condolences to his family and close friends. As the guy was both stabbed and shot, it suggests to me that more than one hijacker was involved. I know for certain that he would not have allowed anyone into his cab willingly especially as its reported he phoned in about how the place he was in was full of muslims with very few Germans to be seen, obviously he felt unsafe.

The vehicle yesterday has a GPS system that conveys an impressive amount of information back to base, I wonder if they could also include a panic/hijack function that could alert managers/police of an incident and even activate a remote shutdown function.

In cab monitoring possibly too for post incident analysis? Built in, not a dash cam.

Not forgetting the innocent bystanders, how about anticollision systems with autonomous braking?

The technology exists, do you think it will it be adopted?

It seems the warnings that ferry truckers have been giving for a long time are finally turning true but in an even grimmer way than maybe even they could have imagined.

HGV security - alan1302

how the place he was in was full of muslims with very few Germans to be seen, obviously he felt unsafe.

You might want to edit this before getting a locked post...Germans can be Muslims...and despite what a lot of people think you can't tell someones religion from lookng at them...and even if someone is muslim it doesn't mean you are unsafe.

HGV security - RT

I feel very sad for the trucker and the other victims - but such attacks are inevitable when we have open borders within Europe and ineffective borders around the periphery - how anyone makes that to be a good thing is beyond me - the UK will be well rid of it when Brexit is implemented.

Terrorism and politics can't easily be separated.

HGV security - Sofa Spud

I feel very sad for the trucker and the other victims - but such attacks are inevitable when we have open borders within Europe and ineffective borders around the periphery - how anyone makes that to be a good thing is beyond me - the UK will be well rid of it when Brexit is implemented.

Terrorism and politics can't easily be separated.

The EU is strengthening its external borders - rather belatedly, perhaps, but just in time for Brexit, when we'll find ourselves on the outside and wishing we weren't.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 20/12/2016 at 22:59

HGV security - brum

how the place he was in was full of muslims with very few Germans to be seen, obviously he felt unsafe.

You might want to edit this before getting a locked post...Germans can be Muslims...and despite what a lot of people think you can't tell someones religion from lookng at them...and even if someone is muslim it doesn't mean you are unsafe.

Im only quoting what was reported he said to his cousin, the owner of the business.

It would be a shame to shutdown what is meant to be a serious discussion because of political correctness. To a large extent thats whats got us here anyway.

HGV security - Bromptonaut

how the place he was in was full of muslims with very few Germans to be seen, obviously he felt unsafe.

You might want to edit this before getting a locked post...Germans can be Muslims...and despite what a lot of people think you can't tell someones religion from lookng at them...and even if someone is muslim it doesn't mean you are unsafe.

It seems the driver was carrying a cargo of steel intended for Thyssen-Krupps. They were unable to unload at time and instructed driver to return next day. He then went off to park up and was last seen in a kebab shop.

Several reports say he phoned his employer as he found himself in an area with 'no germans'. I've not seen any source confirming the 'full of Muslims' remark.

It should be remembered in judging those comments that Poland is a very white country; it's citizens are not used to being cheek by jowl with other races.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 21/12/2016 at 14:31

HGV security - RobJP

I don't see any way in which security systems could be bettered - and if they were, then someone could cause similar levels of carnage with a Range Rover, Shogun, X5, Navara ... or plenty of other heavy 4*4 vehicles. Though they may be lighter, they're far quicker and more agile than a HGV, and if one of those strikes a crowd at speed, there's going to be little difference in the end result.

HGV security - brum

But say a password driven immobiliser might stop the vehicle even moving? Or give the driver an opportunity to call for urgent assistance (using a panic password to start if forced by hijackers)

Im sure there are many ways to make the chances of a vehicle being used as a weapon less. Obviously talking about new vehicles initially.

HGV security - oldroverboy.

I have no objection to the point being raised. We have noticed a great change in Munich and Cologne, where we go a couple of times a year. We actually cancelled going to berlin at the beginning of the month, too nervous.

SWMBO is an Iraqui catholic christian whose family have been threatened, kidnapped and killed. two of her cousins were priests in the church that was attacked in Baghdad a few years back and died.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Baghdad_church_massacre

I myself no longer go to Jordan to see some of the family as they feel it is no longer safe for me, yet 21 years ago i could still go to Baghdad and be welcomed and walk around in safety.

Yet, my first mother-in-law, who was in the "camps" in the 2nd world war found forgiveness in her heart for those who took her parents, brothers and sisters away from her.

Perhaps it is the wrong place to discuss this, but I hope Avant will leave the post open.

Far more concerning is the HGVs parked with motors running while being unloaded so that there is power for taillifts. The weak point is the access to the vehicle when a driver/keys are there and present.

Upon this sobering moment, I urge all to think carefully and take care of those precious to all of us, our families and friends.

HGV security - gordonbennet

There is going to be no end to this for years to come, these are just the opening salvos in the coming war and make no bones about it we are at war, and the only reason we in Britain have been spared the recent attcks is due to that moat all around us, and to our security services.

Fiddling about wondering how we can make the weapon of current choice more difficult for the terrorist is just more fiddling whilst Rome burns.

There's a very good way of making lorries less easy to ambush, that is to allow the driver to protect themselves, but oh goodnees me no we can't let the innocent have guns, only criminals can carry guns machetes and knives.

We are at war ladies and gents, and sooner or later it will be our turn here, our security services have to win every time year in year out, the terrorist only has to win once, and no shortage of cannon fodder terrorists, the German Leader might as well have laid out the red carpet for them, how ironic and tragic that the destruction of free Europe might once again be the fault of German leader, you would think they'd remember what happened last time.

The western war machine is very much to blame for starting this, and our own elected eager tail wagging poodle (three times on the trot Blair) leaders doing their best to join the US and their middle eastern paymaster's bidding in re-arranging the middle east to suit themselves.

Who knows what the end game is, our very way of life in Europe is going to change beyond all recognition in the next three decades, ironically so many of our liberal snowflake generation are protesting for and welcoming their own destruction, i wonder, as they age if they will realise how they were duped.

A terror win (if you can call murder like this by some piece of filth a win) in the grand scheme of things doesn't compare with the wins the security services have every week of every year, but each atrocity closes the door that bit more on all our freedoms, so the effects on us in the west, who the people who carry out these attacks despise...not the freebies and handouts mind...is magnified ten fold each time.

A horrible tragedy for the victims and their families, but it won't change a thing, Merkel will spout a few platitudes but will still be re-elected, we'll have more Europe, more open borders, more terrorists imported, and their answer to the terrorists will be to arrest a few faceache posters who say or think the wrong thing about those who carry out these attacks and seek to censor and ultimately destroy alternative news in cahoots with like minded euro leaders, you couldn't make it up.

Until we stop pussyfooting around appeasing those who hate us, this will only get progressively worse, until we in the west surrender, and it will be we because Brexit as should be happening isn't going to, onlt time will tell if our nation has the guts to sack the gvt for utter failure in the next general election.

Putting more electronics on the lorry isn't going to make a scrap of difference.

HGV security - John F

There is going to be no end to this for years to come, these are just the opening salvos in the coming war......

'Opening salvos' ??? We need a few more historians here to educate such naivety! This war started when the early adherents of this poisonous ideology sabred their way into Jerusalem, sparking off the crusades. There was a short spell of reluctant tolerance (extra taxes etc for non-Muslims) but its true colours soon showed through. Modern ICT has allowed its inhumane influence to metastasize and the tolerant secular nations always seem to be one step behind. Some of its more intelligent leaders are at this moment possibly planning to hijack a large ship and ram something important e.g. cruise liner, oil rig....

Anyway, don't get too excercised or depressed - Steven Pinker's book 'The better angels of our nature' is an optimistic read. The harm done (so far) is dwarfed by road deaths.

HGV security - RT

There is going to be no end to this for years to come, these are just the opening salvos in the coming war......

'Opening salvos' ??? We need a few more historians here to educate such naivety! This war started when the early adherents of this poisonous ideology sabred their way into Jerusalem, sparking off the crusades. There was a short spell of reluctant tolerance (extra taxes etc for non-Muslims) but its true colours soon showed through. Modern ICT has allowed its inhumane influence to metastasize and the tolerant secular nations always seem to be one step behind. Some of its more intelligent leaders are at this moment possibly planning to hijack a large ship and ram something important e.g. cruise liner, oil rig....

Anyway, don't get too excercised or depressed - Steven Pinker's book 'The better angels of our nature' is an optimistic read. The harm done (so far) is dwarfed by road deaths.

Where's the like button when you need it?

Military might kept the lid on it for most of history, followed by repressive colonialisation in the last century - but increasing wealth from oil and undemocratic independence have led to the current uncontainable situation

HGV security - gordonbennet

'Opening salvos' ??? We need a few more historians here to educate such naivety!

Naivety! get a grip man.

You mean like inviting the enemy to come in unchecked, if you want naive ask Frau Merkel about it.

We've seen our own fifth columns atrocities, naive is inviting the enemy in and then appearing surprised when they do what they do, mind you politicians do shock and surprise to Bafta standard.

The war of which you speak going back many hundreds of years wasn't a case of an enemy that was invited to live a separatist life within doing what anyone with an ounce of common sense would expect.

HGV security - Wackyracer

'Opening salvos' ??? We need a few more historians here to educate such naivety!

Naivety! get a grip man.

You mean like inviting the enemy to come in unchecked, if you want naive ask Frau Merkel about it.

I suppose you could compare it with history, something like the Trojan horse and Troy but, without the horse.

HGV security - Wackyracer

The vehicle yesterday has a GPS system that conveys an impressive amount of information back to base, I wonder if they could also include a panic/hijack function that could alert managers/police of an incident and even activate a remote shutdown function.

In 2002 the company I worked for had Isotrak telematics and tracking installed in all the units. We were all trained to use the system(alot of the operation was manual entries) and it did have panic buttons in the cab. We were told that in the event of pressing said panic button, there would be a police unit with us within 20minutes (iirc). I had left a delivery point and was coming upto Rownhams services when the in cab phone started to ring. I pulled into the services and answered the phone, it was the office asking if I was OK. Apparently, my trucks system had set a panic situation alert on their computer system almost 2 hours previous to them calling me but, nobody had thought to do anything about it. It never inspired much confidence after that.

HGV security - brum

Interesting. So this is possible, barring sloppy procedures.

Im inclined to think no one will do much to improve things at this stage, but another similar incident and it may sharpen their focus.

Lets face it, apart from suicide pilots, aircraft have become very hijack resistant since they beefed up the pilots door security.

HGV security - Cluedo
Systems are already in place that map a HGV route and if it strays more than a set disctance from that route then the vehicle is disabled.
This can also be turned down so to speak to ensure diversions and driver mistakes can be taken into account etc.
The technology is already there.
My BMW 5 series could be locked and unlocked remotely from the BMW call centre plus a lot more I have no doubt.
The Technology is not expensive either.
HGV security - Bolt

My BMW 5 series could be locked and unlocked remotely from the BMW call centre plus a lot more I have no doubt.

According to an American program I watched, the system is being fitted to a lot of new motors and will eventually be standard, if motor is hijacked it can be stopped in a safe place/or wherever the centre want, so it is available

Cars can stop on their own now anyway, so intelligent computers that can identify a driver is not far off, if it isnt already

HGV security - Smileyman

Brum's comments seem to invite in a "big brother" solution, whereby someone oversees what is happening then acts if they don't like what they see. All very nice in this kind of defensive need, but to invite in big brother is to forget the lessons of, for instance, 1930's Germany where one had only to cough out of place and would end up in the cluches of a very nasty bunch of psychopaths, supported by the full weight of the state and absolutely no boundaries. It's for similar reasons I worry about some of the technology that might be coming in cars, gives too much away without proper need. Even APNR could be used for malevalent reasons if in the wrong hands.

However, I do agree with the anti - collission systems but I thought this is already in the marketplace for cars, often called "city breaking" or similar, not sure about for HGV's.

HGV security - Smileyman

Yes, it's ANPR, edit option timed out before I could use it!

HGV security - Bolt

Brum's comments seem to invite in a "big brother" solution, whereby someone oversees what is happening then acts if they don't like what they see. All very nice in this kind of defensive need, but to invite in big brother is to forget the lessons of, for instance, 1930's Germany where one had only to cough out of place and would end up in the cluches of a very nasty bunch of psychopaths, supported by the full weight of the state and absolutely no boundaries. It's for similar reasons I worry about some of the technology that might be coming in cars, gives too much away without proper need. Even APNR could be used for malevalent reasons if in the wrong hands.

However, I do agree with the anti - collission systems but I thought this is already in the marketplace for cars, often called "city breaking" or similar, not sure about for HGV's.

How are you inviting something that has been in place for years, everywhere you go their are cameras, so these may as well be used to prevent problems like this. if it saves a life its got to be worth it imo

HGV security - barney100

I think the idea of apanic button is good, maybe it could activate external flashing lights and a siren to alert police and public alike.

HGV security - Bolt

I think the idea of apanic button is good, maybe it could activate external flashing lights and a siren to alert police and public alike.

Not if a gun is aimed at you it isnt, unless its a silent alarm.

I prefer the idea of face recognition, if the computer doesnt recognise you it stays at a standstill, mobiles have eye recognition that works well why not in a HGV/van

HGV security - daveyK_UK
All this talk of amending HGV security is treating the symptom not the cause.

The European Union model has failed, especially when it has come to freedom of movement.

HGV security - Bromptonaut
All this talk of amending HGV security is treating the symptom not the cause. The European Union model has failed, especially when it has come to freedom of movement.

The cause is not free movement. If you think abolishing Schengen will stop terrorists crossing borders you're kidding yourself. Even in the midst of WW2 resourceful people crossed borders between German ruled territory and neutral Spain, Sweden or Switzerland.

Fifth Columnists entered UK via Ireland or US.

The problem is wars, massive ineqaulity and mendacaious politicians peddling easy solutions.

HGV security - RT

The EU though has spectacularly failed to control it's external borders - allowing all and sundry to just walk in - genuine asylum seekers, economic migrants with no right of entry and terrorists - when they then get the freedom of Europe under Schengen.

HGV security - daveyK_UK
To absolve the EU of any blame is simply putting your head in the sand.

Likewise to not blame chancellor Merkel for her disasterous invite to the worlds economic migrants to come and live in Germany was equally as disasterous and no doubt cost hundreds if not thousands their lives trying to transit to Germany

Are we allowed to discuss the religion and ideology of Islam? Or do we have to do so by disparaging other religions as well as per the normal response on the BBC?
HGV security - gordonbennet
Are we allowed to discuss the religion and ideology of Islam? Or do we have to do so by disparaging other religions as well as per the normal response on the BBC?

I can think of no faster way to shut a discussion down, criticising Catholics (of which i am a poor lapsed soul) isn't going to end up with a visit from the thought police in blue nor get your head removed.

As for Merkel, the most dangerous person in Europe, and history (true, not what will be re-written) will show she was resonsible for the sizemic shift in life and freedom as we know it that will come over the next few decades, ably aided and abetted by Blair Cameron sundry French and Italian stooges etc etc doing their best to destroy what hundreds of years has built.

They didn't do it off their own back mind you, each and every one approved by enough of the electorat to give them power, and don't they love power, well apart from dishonourable dave who scuttled off with his tail between his legs the day after he found he would have to honour his promise to the country over Brexit was realised.

There are millions of people to blame for what we are about to receive, legion of them glued to, and believing, the output from the idiot box in the corner, and the propaganda they willingly pay for in their chosen mainstream rags.

The irony being, these fools are the ones who are actually responsible for the silent majority of decent normal non racist non xenophobe people finally taking a few minutes from working themselves into early graves to vote Brexit and Trump, i have a sneaky feeling our Brexit has more chance of coming to pass now Trump is the very welcome President Elect, we might at last see some common sense rearing its head in western leadership again, it will be welcomed for it has been mssing for many a year.

HGV security - Bromptonaut
To absolve the EU of any blame is simply putting your head in the sand. Likewise to not blame chancellor Merkel for her disasterous invite to the worlds economic migrants to come and live in Germany was equally as disasterous and no doubt cost hundreds if not thousands their lives trying to transit to Germany

The crisis didn't begin with Merkel and would still be there if the EU had never existed.

It started with an obsession with regime change. Overtly by the overthrow of Saddam Husein with no plan for what might follow. Covertly by assisting 'plucky rebels' in Libya and Syria who subsequently turned into extremists. It is added to by numerous other civil wars in saharan Africa. Some involve Islam, others do not.

While the rest of the EU wrung their hands over how to deal with the resulting refugee crisis, hundreds of thousands in Greece and Italy, Frau Merkel actually did something.

What was the alternative?

Are we allowed to discuss the religion and ideology of Islam? Or do we have to do so by disparaging other religions as well as per the normal response on the BBC?

Well we could. But if we regard Islam as a single homogeneoous mass and have nobody here qualified to speak for it's adherents the debate is not likely to be informed.

If anyone wants a primer on subject I'd suggest the relevant volume from Heinemans 'Discovering Religions' series.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 29/12/2016 at 00:02

HGV security - daveyK_UK

you havent answered any of my points

HGV security - Bromptonaut

you havent answered any of my points

They were more assertions than questions.

I've pointed out that Merkel wasn't acting in a vacuum. How do YOU think the refugee crisis should be handled?

My comment on debating Islam is surely clear enough. A few egregious quotes from Quran/Hadith do not make a debate.

HGV security - RT

Victorious nations have central centuries history of failing to plan for the peace properly.

In various forms, the Middle East crisis has been rumbling on for a few thousand years as none of the factions there seem able to live in peace with their neigbours.

HGV security - daveyK_UK

Inviting a large portion of the worlds economic migrants combined with asylum seekers to all come to Germany was a murderous action and Merkel has the blood of the thousands who died during transit on her hands.

Please grasp how big was the pull factor - the chancellor of Germany inviting the worlds poor to come and settle in its land of milk and honey.

HGV security - brum

Getting back to my original theme, it seems that automatic braking is already implemented in trucks after 2012, although in a form that requires an impact for it to be activated. It seems the technology did limit the carnage.

www.dw.com/en/automatic-brakes-stopped-berlin-truc...5

It also transpires that the Polish trucker was shot dead hours before the attack so no fighting at the wheel took place.

HGV security - Bolt

Getting back to my original theme, it seems that automatic braking is already implemented in trucks after 2012, although in a form that requires an impact for it to be activated. It seems the technology did limit the carnage.

www.dw.com/en/automatic-brakes-stopped-berlin-truc...5

It also transpires that the Polish trucker was shot dead hours before the attack so no fighting at the wheel took place.

It`s still not good enough, on some cars the system works by sensing distance and speed,the closer you get to having an accident the brakes apply before it happens (I`ve had a few near misses myself with the Honda system)

So there is a lot of room for improvement, but maybe its been improved on later lorries?

HGV security - gordonbennet

I'd wait and see if the vehicle's AEBS actually did anything at all, i believe this not to be the case from my limited experience of driving a few vehicles with these systems, but happy to be PROVEN wrong when the media have finished speculating and independant examiners not politically motivated or influenced have produced their reports.