Oh dear, I've just read the 'car' section to find yet again the dogma of annual oil changes every year irrespective of mileage. Reminds me of the mindset of ignorant American mechanics whose advice for 3,000m changes persisted into this century.
My 1980 TR7 which now does only a few hundred miles a year has had a mere four oil changes since its semiretirement in1990 and is none the worse for it, its well made engine using virtually no oil at 70,000m. I have just changed the expensive long life oil in my Audi A8 which was last changed nearly three years and 11,000 miles ago. I have no qualms about the longevity of its engine which will probably outlast me.
What really irks me is the number of old biddies and cash-strapped youngsters, often struggling to bring up a family, doing only a few thousand miles a year and who can least afford unnecessary bills, being influenced by nonsense purported to be 'expert opinion'.
No doubt this post will be countered with the usual tirade and pseudoscience from those with an interest in perpetuating this dogma.
Is this your annual repost - I recall you made the same point a while ago.
The Americans make the point that oil is cheap so changing at 3,000 miles / 3 years is cheap maintenance - maybe they have a point as unlike here, it's common for them to get oil analysis done and decide on frequency that way.
Cash-strapped car owners don't use "expensive long life oil", they use the cheapest they can find, not necessarily of the correct spec - so sticking to car makers recommendations really is a good idea for the,
You do your own thing - by the way, when was it they fitted "well made" engines to TR7s, remind me again!
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Is this your annual repost - I recall you made the same point a while ago.
I thought it must have been me! I had a feeling of Deja Vu when I read it.
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I think this is the Q and A John F is referring to.
Q. My wife's BMW X! has only done 6,000 miles in two years. BMW insist that it should now have an oil change. Is this true?
A. Yes. It needs an oil and filter change every year or 10,000 miles, whicheveer comes first, whatever BMW or anyone else says. You are already 12 months late.
I thought BMWs have service indicator warning lights. Perhaps not any more?
Personally, I wouldn't leave a car more than two years without an oil change. If a car is only doing 3,000 miles a year that would lead me to think it is mainly doing short journeys. My limited mechanical knowlede would make me think it is then even more imperative it it needs an oil change. Perhaps I am wrong.
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As others have already pointed out, this is one of John F's regular rants where he seems to feel that HJ - and all of us other regulars who agree with HJ on this point - are in cahoots with the oil industry, and probably getting backhanders, for recommending annual oil changes, and his TR7 (which had cylinder wall gaps you could measure with a ruler when new, the quality was that bad on them), has done perfectly fine having an oil change every decade, and is still on the original radial tyres, so no need to change those when they get old either.
He probably types his rants on a Pentium 60 computer running Windows 95, because upgrading would be idiocy ...
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He probably types his rants on a Pentium 60 computer running Windows 95, because upgrading would be idiocy ...
What's wrong with that, although it's more modern stuff than I use?
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He probably types his rants on a Pentium 60 computer running Windows 95, because upgrading would be idiocy ...
What's wrong with that, although it's more modern stuff than I use?
Sinclair Spectrum?
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Sinclair Spectrum?
I'm not a dinosaur - Spectrum+
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With or without the famous 'interface'?
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We have still got an Amstrad PPC 640 from the mid/late 80's. Its got 640k of ram and no hard drive. Two 3 1/2" floppy drives lurk on the side and you have to load DOS 3.2 into ram on every start up, only takes seconds though.
Still works perfectly almost 30 years on but believe it or not it never gets used these days. Occationally turn it on just to entertain myself.
Threw a Pentium 60 with a 4 gb hard drive and 16mb ram out the other day, that still worked but we had no monitor.
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Most computers and phones thesedays are thrown away in perfect working condition. I got a PC out of the neighbours skip that looks like new inside and out. AMD XP1500+ with 80gb HDD and 512MB ram. Works like the day it was bought but, who needs it?
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stupid and dangerous to throw the hard drive out with the computer - most likely it will have information that would be very useful to anyone with bad intent - deletion of data usually just removes the item from the index and it is possible to use specialist software to recover the data...
getting back to oil changes, it is interesting how much / little different garages want to charge to do this simple task. I know different oils are priced differently, but there must be more than that aspect contributing to the price range!
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getting back to oil changes, it is interesting how much / little different garages want to charge to do this simple task. I know different oils are priced differently, but there must be more than that aspect contributing to the price range!
I supposed it depends on their individual hourly rate and the quality of the filters they use too. I wonder how many of the fast fit oil change outfits use new sump plug washers/ O rings when it is specified by the manufacturers?
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I wonder how many of the fast fit oil change outfits use new sump plug washers/ O rings when it is specified by the manufacturers?
They don't need to if they suck the oil out.
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I wonder how many of the fast fit oil change outfits use new sump plug washers/ O rings when it is specified by the manufacturers?
They don't need to if they suck the oil out.
Leaving the sludge to build up over time!
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As others have already pointed out, this is one of John F's regular rants where he seems to feel that HJ - and all of us other regulars who agree with HJ on this point - are in cahoots with the oil industry, and probably getting backhanders, for recommending annual oil changes, and his TR7 (which had cylinder wall gaps you could measure with a ruler when new, the quality was that bad on them), has done perfectly fine having an oil change every decade, and is still on the original radial tyres, so no need to change those when they get old either.
He probably types his rants on a Pentium 60 computer running Windows 95, because upgrading would be idiocy ...
John F is not the only one who thinks like that, my mate bought a Rover 75 diesel from the auction about 4 years ago, and has done around 400 miles in that time, the fact that oil changes are stated at certain times have no meaning to him and will only change oil and filter when its done the mileage
but he has always been like that and every car he`s owned never had an oil change in his ownership
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100 miles p.a. Oil change every century then.
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I seem to remember many years ago, it was reported that an engine that burnt oil and was topped up never needed an oil change, some people regarded this as true and followed the advice
Most triumphs of the day were oil burners, I had once put a TR7 unit in a dolomite but could never get it running right, so scrapped it, though I bought the engine from a scrap yard but took me 2 weeks to fit due to problems with oil leaks and having the time to do it
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I was offered a late Mk Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec by a friend a couple of years back. She'd had it from new and had tried to trade it in and was offered buttons so asked if I was interested. Quick look under the bonnet and you could see it hadn't been serviced in a long time.
Started the engine and oil came flooding out of the filter... it had been on it so long that it had rusted through and holed! They're not designed to remain on an engine for years. It wasn't a car I'd trade but I fired on a new filter and refilled it with oil to get it started safely and sent it to auction. Could only select 1st and 2nd gear but as the oil circulated the poor thing freed off and could be driven normally.
Highly likely another trader would've bought it and offered it for sale to some unsuspecting private punter. The lifespan of this car could be measured in weeks and months at best. Never buy a car without proof of annual servicing! It might look clean and tidy as this wee Ford did but it had been totally neglected.
Edited by SLO76 on 14/11/2016 at 08:30
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i think we should just be sensible about oil changes, and use our common sense. If we have a good car which is running well and you plan on keeping it then do the annual oil changes. If you do a small mileage then do it every other year.
I had a small Suzki I used as a station car and I changed the oil once in four years, when I thought it needed it. The annual mileage was very low.
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Agreed, common sense as in everything.
Some of us have, like Madf above, found a system which works for us and has proved to give us reliable long lived motoring, so won't be swayed too quickly.
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At last, a bit of sensible debate after the usual responses from the usual suspects, plus a bit of pseudscience about depositing nasty bits of 'contamination' around the engine.
My intention is not to 'rattle cages' but to challenge dogma. There is very little research evidence on this topic, possibly because results would seriously damage the motor service trade.
To answer the derogatory question above 'when did TR7s get well built engines', probably when they brought the production line down to Canley from Speke. Certainly my pistons, valve guides and rings must be a good fit as it uses hardly any oil. And if the Triumph 'slant 4' was good enough for Saab it can't have been that bad. It did get the recommended 6000m changes in its first 10yrs of life, though. All our other cars have had changes every 10-12,000m, even if 2yrs in between. All engines still worked well when sold at high mileages.
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'pseudoscience' ... oh dear.
Ok then John F, I've never posted my qualifications before, but here goes :
BSC (Hons) Chemistry from UMIST.
Then I got a job with Shell at Runcorn, and started to learn. My boss was heavily into oil deterioration, and exactly what happened over time, and we had all that lovely equipment available, so a small team (3 of us), were put onto some proper testing. We had a set of drivers and a fleet of 10 VW Polos (the estate-type 'coupe' version, if anyone remembers them) which were all black, and all had what could only be described as 'air resistance boards' bolted to the roofs (to put greater stress on the engine, to increase wear) that went up and down the M56 day and night (50k miles per annum per vehicle), and we dropped the oil at different intervals for each car, and tested the oil coming out to every possible protocol - and some new ones too. My MSc (3 years later) specialised in those oil deteriorations, and the effect on engine wear.
In total, I spent 16 years there, working on oil development and testing. It might sound like boasting, but what I learnt about oils, oil pathways, shear rates, suspension products and suspension limits ... well, I could bore most 'geeks' in the subject to death.
So, that's my cards on the table. That's my 'science'. What's yours ? Because you pass your 'knowledge' off as having some meaning, but never say where it's come from, apart from the ownership of a TR7.
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I've just got a simple Honours Degree in Physics and 15 years working in the automotive industry.
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Yeah I had the "remarkable" triumph 2 litre in my SAAB 99 GLE. Must say it was the worst car I have ever owned and that includes FIATs. The engine was remarkable in that it was the size of a bus, had screws e.g on the rocker cover that forever undid themselves. (Saab dealer said they all did that). Leaked oil all over the place and of course had a rattly camchain, and the usual failed head gasket/ warped head with that crazy mix of head bolts and studs/nuts.
The rest of the car was even worse, rust worse than Ive ever experienced, my friends used to joke that if ai ever lost the keys, I could still get in though the sills. Electrics (french origin) were atrocious.
But what would I know, only having rebuilt many an engine in my time...
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Yeah I had the "remarkable" triumph 2 litre in my SAAB 99 GLE. Must say it was the worst car I have ever owned and that includes FIATs. The engine was remarkable in that it was the size of a bus, had screws e.g on the rocker cover that forever undid themselves. (Saab dealer said they all did that). Leaked oil all over the place and of course had a rattly camchain, and the usual failed head gasket/ warped head with that crazy mix of head bolts and studs/nuts.
The rest of the car was even worse, rust worse than Ive ever experienced, my friends used to joke that if ai ever lost the keys, I could still get in though the sills. Electrics (french origin) were atrocious.
But what would I know, only having rebuilt many an engine in my time...
Parents had 3 Saabs, two of them real Saabs i.e. not GM, no complaints about any of them. Last one is 1998 9-3, owned since 2002, probably the most reliable car they've ever bought.
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Saabs and for that matter TR7s built around 1976-1978 were terrible and had a terrible reputation just like most BL cars of that era.
I fancied buying a TR7 in 1977, but then the horror stories emerged...
But what relevance has a 1960s engine to this discussion of oil change requirements for todays modern engines?
Edited by brum on 14/11/2016 at 19:29
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Yeah I had the "remarkable" triumph 2 litre in my SAAB 99 GLE. Must say it was the worst car I have ever owned and that includes FIATs. The engine was remarkable in that it was the size of a bus, had screws e.g on the rocker cover that forever undid themselves. (Saab dealer said they all did that). Leaked oil all over the place and of course had a rattly camchain, and the usual failed head gasket/ warped head with that crazy mix of head bolts and studs/nuts.
The rest of the car was even worse, rust worse than Ive ever experienced, my friends used to joke that if ai ever lost the keys, I could still get in though the sills. Electrics (french origin) were atrocious.
But what would I know, only having rebuilt many an engine in my time...
brum, classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/comment/2016-11/a-g.../
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At last, a bit of sensible debate after the usual responses from the usual To answer the derogatory question above 'when did TR7s get well built engines', probably when they brought the production line down to Canley from Speke. Certainly my pistons, valve guides and rings must be a good fit as it uses hardly any oil. And if the Triumph 'slant 4' was good enough for Saab it can't have been that bad. It did get the recommended 6000m changes in its first 10yrs of life, though. All our other cars have had changes every 10-12,000m, even if 2yrs in between. All engines still worked well when sold at high mileages.
The Triumph designed/built "slant 2" wasn't really good enough for Saab so they moved production to Sweden very soon after launch and developed it independently themselves from then on - but don't let the facts get in the way of a good myth.
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My own way of defying conventional logic was to over-specify oil and use very low cold rating - back in the '90s when Vauxhall's "norm" was 20W-40 part-synthetic, I used 0W-40 fully synthetic oil, every 5,000 miles, with excellent results - literally better than new at 100,000 miles with zero oil consumption. My logic was that the higher the oil quality the better and the lower the cold rating the quicker oil circulated the engine from start-up, reducing wear - at exactly the time when wear is at it's highest.
It's not easy to "improve" with modern cars/oils as the oil specifications are high and 0W-20 normal on the models I buy - but I do still change the oil at half the manufacturers recommendation.
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I notice that John F hasn't come on to tell us all of his expertise in engineering, and why we're all 'pseudo'-scientists, whereas he's the real deal.
Quelle surprise.
He'll probably come back on here in 6 months, when he sees HJ telling someone else the same thing in the paper, and have another rant.
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My understanding is that the slant 4 was a Recardo design built by Triumph.
Edited by kiss (keep it simple) on 16/11/2016 at 22:00
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Ricardo was not involved, it was developed in house and was a triumph v8 stag engine chopped in half hence the ridiculous and unreliable arrangement of studs and bolts holding down the aluminium head on a cast iron block.
Saab adopted it because the alternative Ricardo design was too expensive, they probably didnt realise it was such a crap design. They had to redesign itand produced a 2 litre version, but it wasnt that much better with regard to the originals head warping and camchain problems.
Edited by brum on 16/11/2016 at 22:54
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Hi, I'm back, thanks to RobJP's invitation on another thread. I'd forgotten about this one. I've enjoyed wideranging opinions about Saabs which I had not seen and salute the academic achievements and experience of my detractors.
My qualifications for venturing an opinion about chemical and physical matters are merely decent grades at chemistry and physics 'A' level by the age of 17 (in the 1960s when 'A' levels were arguably more difficult than today's) and a subsequent lifelong interest in engines of one sort or another. We were told that the biochemistry component of our medical course was the equivalent of a BSc but by then I was specialising in the study of a live machine far more complex than mere internal combustion engines, fascinating though they are.
I am of course aware that the more frequently one changes oil, and the better its quality, the longer the engine will last. All I am saying is that annual oil changes are unnecessary for the average low mileage driver who does not need the engine to last for 250,000m.
By the bye, my 36yr old 70,000m TR7 passed its MoT yesterday - no advisories, engine humming sweetly, has never required any attention apart from its water pump and trimming the ends of the original HT leads. Last oil change 2013.
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has never required any attention apart from its water pump and trimming the ends of the original HT leads.
Ahh, the good old trimming the ends of the HT leads.
This and balancing the fan belt are long forgotten maintenance tasks that should still be done every few hundred miles.
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Don't forget to check the oil in the lamps and trim those wicks. And to empty the ash from the footwarmers.
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