Costco has great offers on engine oil every now and then. 5L of castrol edge is around £25 incl. VAT. You can get the best oil ever for £3 extra..
What is "the best oil ever"?
My car uses SAE 0W-30, ACEA-C3, VW 507.00 - that's a lot more than £28 per 5 litres anywhere.
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Costco has great offers on engine oil every now and then. 5L of castrol edge is around £25 incl. VAT. You can get the best oil ever for £3 extra..
What is "the best oil ever"?
My car uses SAE 0W-30, ACEA-C3, VW 507.00 - that's a lot more than £28 per 5 litres anywhere.
No point in putting the wrong spec oil in however cheap. But equally there is no point putting a very expensive wrong spec oil in either.
Back in my youth it was simple, 20w50, Castrol GTX or Duckhams Q, anything else was never considered. I was in the Castrol camp. Only changed when the API specs became more common, I then used the one that had the most recent spec of the correct viscosity. When I bought VW's I used Quantum oil, it was cheaper than going to Halfords.
Now I tend to use Asda oil in the Caterham. It uses Ford A5 5w30 Fully Synth and its about £16 for 5 litres. Why pay more.
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Every manufacturer has various specs available, they don’t seel oil for one car only. Castrol is, in my opinion, the best brand in the world, but this is obviously debatable.
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Castrol is, in my opinion, the best brand in the world, but this is obviously debatable.
Bit of info about Castrol. When I first had a Ford Zetec engine the spec was A1 5w30 Semi Synthetic and Castrol Magnatec met that spec, was a reasonable price so I used it. Move on a few years and specs changed and Magnatec increased in price substantially and became A5 5w30 Full Synthetic. This spec was OK since Ford had upgraded to permit it but I rang Castrol tech to find out what changes had been made. The answer was simple, they had done nothing other than change the label and increase the price. Seems the law allowed them to do that since there was a grey area with the marketing of semi and fully synthetic oil.
More research revealed if you wanted a proper synthetic then buy an Ester Synthetic with POA's.
Castrol were simply having a laugh, never bought their oil since.
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Castrol is, in my opinion, the best brand in the world, but this is obviously debatable.
Bit of info about Castrol. When I first had a Ford Zetec engine the spec was A1 5w30 Semi Synthetic and Castrol Magnatec met that spec, was a reasonable price so I used it. Move on a few years and specs changed and Magnatec increased in price substantially and became A5 5w30 Full Synthetic. This spec was OK since Ford had upgraded to permit it but I rang Castrol tech to find out what changes had been made. The answer was simple, they had done nothing other than change the label and increase the price. Seems the law allowed them to do that since there was a grey area with the marketing of semi and fully synthetic oil.
More research revealed if you wanted a proper synthetic then buy an Ester Synthetic with POA's.
Castrol were simply having a laugh, never bought their oil since.
"Synthetic" is a whole can of worms - Part Synthetic, not "half" synthetic, simply means that any proportion is synthetic from 1% to 99% - and "Synthetic" isn't actually synthetic oil, it's "hydro-cracked mineral oil" except in Germany where it really has to be synthetic to be called that.
It's best to ignore the description altogether and go by the SAE Viscosity, eg 10W-30, plus the ACEA Sequence, eg -C3, plus the manufacturer's specification, eg VW 507.00
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i use the cosco 5 gallon drum . chevron 5/30. its a great price . use it on the basis that cosco and chevron wouldn't sell poor quality
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i use the cosco 5 gallon drum . chevron 5/30. its a great price . use it on the basis that cosco and chevron wouldn't sell poor quality
I would suspect Chevron oil is very good quality. But is the 5w30 you are using the correct one for your car. Lots more to oil choice than viscosity these days especially if its a diesel.
Look for the ACEA spec and the API spec that are shown in your handbook then look on the oil container. If they don't match don't use it.
And don't forget to check if your car needs Full or Part synthetic (but if the oil is full synthetic it will be fine since its backwards compatible).
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i use the cosco 5 gallon drum . chevron 5/30. its a great price . use it on the basis that cosco and chevron wouldn't sell poor quality
Yeh, I was tempted by Chevron 10W40 from Costco but passed due to Chevron's especially bad environmental record in Amazonia.
I realise they are an oil company, so clean hands are unlikely, so its just a relative judgement.
Re Mannol I'd say a bigger risk than buying an obscure brand on the Internyet would be getting fake product mimicking a big brand. There have been cases of this reported to UK Trading Standards re VW oils. Here in Taiwan its supposed to be a retail risk also, though I'd think you'd be pretty safe with major outlets like big supermarket chains or Costco.
AGIP are supposed to be especially targeted, and keep changing the bottle design as a countermeasure. Castrol not so much, since (oddly to a Brit) they are considered a bit downmarket here.
I add an extra layer of security by not buying fancy pseudo-or-actual-synthetics (which I don't need or want) from big names. Currently I use China Petroleum Corporation (which you won't have seen) SAE40 and 15W40 in the oldest spec I can find (SJ). Nobody is going to bother faking that, and its allowed have more zinc in it, though I don't know if it does.
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My understanding is that following a dispute with Mobil over the use of the term, it was Castrol that got the industry definition of "synthetic" stretched to include heavily hydro-cracked mineral oils, essentially rendering the term meaningless. I believe organisations like the API don't use it or rule on it anymore.
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Costco has great offers on engine oil every now and then. 5L of castrol edge is around £25 incl. VAT. You can get the best oil ever for £3 extra..
What is "the best oil ever"?
My car uses SAE 0W-30, ACEA-C3, VW 507.00 - that's a lot more than £28 per 5 litres anywhere.
Millers Trident C3 5W-30, product code 5999, is described (by Millers) as suitable where VW 507.00 is required. Whether that is the same as approved, one can debate, and it will probably be allowed in the handbook for a suitably reduced temperature range (on my Mazda,0w-20 is good to -35C, 5W-30 to -30C)
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Costco has great offers on engine oil every now and then. 5L of castrol edge is around £25 incl. VAT. You can get the best oil ever for £3 extra..
What is "the best oil ever"?
My car uses SAE 0W-30, ACEA-C3, VW 507.00 - that's a lot more than £28 per 5 litres anywhere.
Millers Trident C3 5W-30, product code 5999, is described (by Millers) as suitable where VW 507.00 is required. Whether that is the same as approved, one can debate, and it will probably be allowed in the handbook for a suitably reduced temperature range (on my Mazda,0w-20 is good to -35C, 5W-30 to -30C)
Thanks for the heads-up but that's not the viscosity I want, I use 0W-30 / 507.00, not 5W-30 / 507.00 - both are approved by VW but dealers are now using the 0W-30 which I intend to continue as 0W give quicker protection during start-up than 5W.
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Mannol is quite a big aftermarket brand in Germany.
They are a German company but probably manufacture elsewhere. They make/distribute all sorts of stuff including brakes, shocks etc as well under various brands.
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Thanks for the heads-up but that's not the viscosity I want, I use 0W-30 / 507.00, not 5W-30 / 507.00 - both are approved by VW but dealers are now using the 0W-30 which I intend to continue as 0W give quicker protection during start-up than 5W.
This is disputed by people who know about these things, but not of course by people who sell these things.
0W-30 gives slightly lower fuel consumption, and thus allows vehicle manufacturers to claim the same.
That is what it is for.
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Thanks for the heads-up but that's not the viscosity I want, I use 0W-30 / 507.00, not 5W-30 / 507.00 - both are approved by VW but dealers are now using the 0W-30 which I intend to continue as 0W give quicker protection during start-up than 5W.
This is disputed by people who know about these things, but not of course by people who sell these things.
0W-30 gives slightly lower fuel consumption, and thus allows vehicle manufacturers to claim the same.
That is what it is for.
Who are the "people who know about these things"? Have you any references to their published work?
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Who are the "people who know about these things"? Have you any references to their published work?
If he told you, he'd probably have to kill you.
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I can look some sources out. Published work is pretty thin though.
I'd speculate that this is because no one would be interested in funding such research, given the large opposed commercial interests.
OTOH the people who claim to know about these things could be completely wrong.
Do you have any references to published work (as opposed to advertising) showing quicker protection by 0W during startup?
(In non-extreme conditions. It'll certainly be true where the pumpability limits of a higher viscosity oil would be exceeded, say in Novosibirsk, in winter)
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I can look some sources out. Published work is pretty thin though.
I'd speculate that this is because no one would be interested in funding such research, given the large opposed commercial interests.
OTOH the people who claim to know about these things could be completely wrong.
Do you have any references to published work (as opposed to advertising) showing quicker protection by 0W during startup?
(In non-extreme conditions. It'll certainly be true where the pumpability limits of a higher viscosity oil would be exceeded, say in Novosibirsk, in winter)
Its an extremely complex subject with many variables made even more complicated by modern engines than use computer control to vary pressure relying on a number of inputs, load, demand, rpm, temperature, estimated oil condition etc etc., some important variables missing being the true oil viscosity among others, presumably it assumes the engine is filled with the recommended OE spec oil so flow rate can be implied but not measured directly.
So best to stick wirh the manufacturer recommendations.
Data sheets are available for motor oils from most brands and the viscosity values, pour points, flash points etc make for interesting reading as they vary a lot between different brands and products even if they claim the same W rating.. Youll never find out what a blend consists of in any detail, group iii, iv, v base oils or additives used, where in the world the base oil originated, was refined, then blended and packaged. It changes constantly anyway.
For the earlier poster looking for "independent" verification of specification claims,its an impossible task, manufacturers simply wont release commercially sensitive data into the public domain that a competitor could use/abuse.
This is possibly of interest though. A large series of youtube videos by "Piotr tester", a Polish guy who's compared many motor oils using his own homebrew test kit. Bit basic but he's tested a lot of oils and compiled his results in an excel spreadsheet you can download. Mannol 7715 happens to come out pretty good compared to some other major brands.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzW_xxVma08
Explanation and links to spreadsheets given in comments section of the video....
How valid his results are or what they mean in the real world is up to you to decide
Ih
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I can look some sources out. Published work is pretty thin though.
I'd speculate that this is because no one would be interested in funding such research, given the large opposed commercial interests.
OTOH the people who claim to know about these things could be completely wrong.
Do you have any references to published work (as opposed to advertising) showing quicker protection by 0W during startup?
(In non-extreme conditions. It'll certainly be true where the pumpability limits of a higher viscosity oil would be exceeded, say in Novosibirsk, in winter)
Its an extremely complex subject with many variables made even more complicated by modern engines than use computer control to vary pressure relying on a number of inputs, load, demand, rpm, temperature, estimated oil condition etc etc.,
Time to oil is in principle fairly simple to determine, though you'd have to control drain down times between measurements.
Time to protect is more complex both to define and to measure. Possibly the best technique is to use radioactive treatment of the wearing surfaces and monitoring of the radioactivity arriving in the oil.
This technique is used in engine wear studies. I dunno if it has been used to look at the effect of oil viscosity on startup wear, but a quick search didn't find it if it has.
Edited by edlithgow on 18/02/2021 at 00:05
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Thanks for the heads-up but that's not the viscosity I want, I use 0W-30 / 507.00, not 5W-30 / 507.00 - both are approved by VW but dealers are now using the 0W-30 which I intend to continue as 0W give quicker protection during start-up than 5W.
This is disputed by people who know about these things, but not of course by people who sell these things.
0W-30 gives slightly lower fuel consumption, and thus allows vehicle manufacturers to claim the same.
That is what it is for.
Who are the "people who know about these things"? Have you any references to their published work?
I had a bit of a poke around and didn't find much on this specific point. Its often surprisingly hard to find evidence on relatively simple basic questions/commonly held beliefs re lubricants. The data probably exists, but its quite likely to be either a proprietary and unpublished secret, hidden behind an SAE paywall, or both.
Perhaps you'll have better luck, since you're "on message" with the marketing.
This is one of the better thick V. thin discussions I'm aware of
bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/can-too-thick-of...3
Poster Shannow (a lubrication engineer, and probably one of the "people who know about these things" I was thinking of) makes the point (post 53 in that thread) that time to lubricate is relatively insensitive to viscosity, supporting this statement with a (very) little bit of data.
However, if I'm reading it correctly, the data do actually show a difference at the only temperature point alllowing direct comparison . i.e. about 10F or -12C which is pretty cold. The differences will be less at higher temperatures.
SAE 30 Rocker Arm Oiling Time at 10F is 25 secs
10W30 Rocker Arm Oiling Time at 9F is 11 secs
5W20 Rocker Arm Oiling Time at 12F is 5 secs
Not very good data, but all I found, and it does apparently support your statement, though of course there is no 0W20 data point, and the significance of the 5-6 second difference between 10W30 and 5W30 for wear is unknown.
I should have queried this at the time, but I didn't notice it, being more interested in the opinion of poster Sonofjoe (an oil formulator, and probably one of the other "people who know about these things" I was thinking of) on 20W50 and (by extension) my own home made blend of SAE40 and 15W40. (Post 74 on in that thread)
Can't query it now since I'm banned.
I found more (though still not a lot) of data on wear with lower viscosity oils. It tends to be greater, because the Minimum Oil Film Thickness is less, but this is considered an acceptable trade off for the better fuel economy, and can be reduced with anti-wear agents which protect to some extent during metal to metal contact.
bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/sources-of-engin.../
MOFT is almost twice as great for 20W50 compared to 0W20, but so are frictional losses
pdf.blucher.com.br.s3-sa-east-1.amazonaws.com/engi...f
Higher wear from 10W30 than 15W40
Edited by edlithgow on 16/02/2021 at 04:12
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^^^ Strewth! I had the briefest of glances at the above and suddenly lost the will to live.
Edith says at one point "Can't query it now since I'm banned."
Cant imagine why that would be.
Better include a smiley just to be on the safe side :-)
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I'm all for more ladies joining the forum , but I've been assuming this is Ed Lithgow.
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You know, Avant, you could be right :-)
It's increasingly obvious that, to quote the well used expression, "I should have gone to Specsavers".
For all this time I've looked at this gentleman's username and read it as edith gow - and now I can see (if if squint and get a bit closer to the screen) that I was somewhat mistaken
Oh well, all part of getting old I guess.
Edited by KB. on 16/02/2021 at 16:34
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^^^ Strewth! I had the briefest of glances at the above and suddenly lost the will to live.
Edith says at one point "Can't query it now since I'm banned."
Cant imagine why that would be.
Better include a smiley just to be on the safe side :-)
Yeh, better had, cos otherwise it might seem a bit, like, gratuitously offensive, without actually containing anything of substance.
But a smiley covers all sins
This is a technical topic, even though its in "discussion". If you don't like technical topics, better not to even glance at them, to avoid waste of time and space.
And smileys
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Well that's put me straight then..
:-)
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Yes, I had also been reading it as Edith Glow all this time! Whoops!
:)
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mannol sell automatic transmission fluid sp 111 for kia hyundai and misubushi. it a great price compared against main dealers . . why should it not be ok ?
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i agree with what you say. its do you think hyundai make their own ATF. or is it produced in the same place as other brands. it make you wonder what's in the stuff. so many variants of basically the same thing.
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YESTERDAY RANG KIA to get a quart of ATF SP 111. They didn't have it .gave them the part number from my bottle in my garage. . he asked the mechanic and was told they use ATF MX4 in all their cars. part number was just slighter higher . bought it , now not so sure about it
TODAY rang hyundai. they dont stock any. just have a drum in the workshop. i said ive got a bottle in my hand. this is the part number. he was unhelpful to start with, then suddenly said it will be here in the morning.
reading the bottle, it says produced in india at hyundai oil something under licence total oil something.
previously i purchashed some aisin ATF toyota T 1v from a auto specialist who insisted it was the correct stuff. i feel that caused me some problems
on mannoil i wonder is it mineral based and not synthetic, thats why its so much cheaper
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At the end of the day, it's like anything else you might buy - do you believe what is on the label ? I'm not suggesting you are being conned, but it's always possible.
I'm sure many servicing outfits keep a few standard grades of bulk oil, grease and ATF - presumably meeting the specs of the brands they service - if only to save costs. Hopefully some of the technicians are interested enough to think about your question.
Last year I asked the local ATS to change the oil in my diesel car, using 10-40 which it had had since new. They said they would use 5-30 because Pug said so (the manual recommends either) - refused to budge, so I went somewhere else.
Edited by Andrew-T on 18/02/2021 at 09:25
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At the end of the day, it's like anything else you might buy - do you believe what is on the label ? I'm not suggesting you are being conned, but it's always possible.
I'm sure many servicing outfits keep a few standard grades of bulk oil, grease and ATF - presumably meeting the specs of the brands they service - if only to save costs. Hopefully some of the technicians are interested enough to think about your question.
Sadly, some franchised workshops only keep one grade of each fluid and use that in all models, regardless of changes in manufacturers requirements - Hyundai/Kia dealers were infamous for continuing to use ACEA-C2 oil as a "one size fits all" even after their diesels had DPFs fitted and needed ACEA-C3 and VW dealers didn't handle the change over from PD to CR engines very well and often used the wrong oil specification.
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Hyundai/Kia dealers were infamous for continuing to use ACEA-C2 oil as a "one size fits all" even after their diesels had DPFs fitted and needed ACEA-C3
We had one of the first Ceeds fitted with a DPF, took delivery in September 2010. Ceeds before this used A3 oil in both petrol and diesels, pretty sure there was no mention of C2 (also a low saps oil) in the book. Ours used C3, we bought Total MC3 5w30 (Hyundai Kia approved) for about £22 for 5 litres (the dealers oil was £65 on a service) and he was happy to use it once he had seen the spec sheet and approvals.
But we did get a price from one Kia dealer who seemed to be about £40 a service cheaper. He was a Ford/Kia dealer and used Ford 5w30 (A1 or A5) on all the cars, if you wanted Kia spec oil it was another £40. How many had DPF issues as a result I wonder.
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more on my story. when my hyundai was 9 years old and over 80,000 miles. i was going to replace ATF as service manual suggests. went to main dealer, the lady on parts quoted me £70 a litre i need 7 litres isaid that cant be right. please check it again. she agrees it sounds excessive. she comes back in ten minutes, yes it's the correct price. and plus vat so i didn't buy .
i've since bought some old stock SP111 on ebay at a great price, which gives me the part number which enables me to get more from hyundai today at £ 13,+ vat. so i can top up after changing driveshaft oil seal.
i wonder if toyota ATF caused my problems . i had gearbox out to repair rear engine oil leak. . it was first lockdown and it was hard to find parts, ended up using the aisin toyota ATF , Which is one digit part number less on mannol. Since i've had engine light come on .indicating a gearbox fault, strange noise and rough shift . both oil seals leaked. relaced with the ebay hyundai sp 111. the light stayed off and gears seem ok.
so my thoughts are only use what manufactures tell you, or same as original.
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Toyota WS from Toyota is a gold standard for ATF or better gets certified Dexron VI for your Hyundai or Toyota or Honda. They are all very close with similar high quality additives. I Would get Aisin 6+FE, if it is cheaper. It is not ATF that caused your Hyundai broke down. It isnHyundai problems that cannot make a reliable transmisson. But rear engine seals leaks are expensive, could be caused by overfilling transmission fluid or engine oil. In ATF only Ford and GM give ceritifaciton Dexron VI or Mercon V, etc. Toyota does not license it to others but Aisin, the transmission supplier for Toyota sell its own ATF that claimed almost every cars with lifetime ATF type. Don't buy cheapest ATF from unknown brands, stick with the one with certification or welknown brands. Mobil, Castrol, Valvoline, Ravenol, Aisin, ZF, etc.
Edited by Johnhamann on 18/03/2021 at 08:41
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Toyota gets the oil from ExxonMobil and Imperial Oil Canada, VW, Benz,and BMW from BP/Castrol, Hyundai from Total, GM from Warren corp, etc. For engine oil, it is easy because there is ACEA, ILSAC, etc. Standard. For ATF is tricky but some generalization could be made. Dexron III, Toyota IV, Nissan K are similar. Newer better lifespan Dexron VI, WS, etc are lower viscosity to start with but hold the viscosity values longer than say Dexron III H.
Edited by Johnhamann on 18/03/2021 at 08:38
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i am sure your knowledge is greater than mine. i feel the toyota atf would have been fine if just topping up. both driveshafts leaked not long after replacement , but they had been dismantled a couple of times. best advice, change seals when gear box is dropped down. ive not used car since lockdown, but hoping its going to be ok for a while. main hope is the warning light stays off
the fault code was PO713
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I got replied email in German from Mannol CS. They stated that some of their oil are approved by VW like 0w20 7722 vw508 509. But it cost 35€ per 5 L, castrol edge is about 40€, so It is not convincing enough for me to buy mannol. Besides that, in email they also stated that all 0w20 from mannol are synthetic blend, not fully synthetic like Castrol Edge or Mobil1. Practically they are like castrol GTX or Mobil 3000/5000, which are decent oil. In BITOG forum, most of these type synthetic blend oils perform as good as fully synthetic oil. The additives and detergents playbmore role than just the stock oil.
The other 0w20 is Legend Ultra 7918 and C5 7921 which cost 30-35€ for 10L or less than a half price. It is still claimed to be longlife too but I would do it for 15k km/10k miles interva instead of 30k km max. Toyota or Honda with 7500 km/6 months interval for preventing oil consumption with short trip habit, Mannol is a good choice for that interval. I prefer 6 months interval with good cheap oil than excotic oil with 1 year interval. Most Toyota mechanics recommends 6 months even they use Mobil1 SP2 or Toyota 0w20 in dealership because of that reasons. Oil consumption issues from short trip or city drive makes the 15k km or 10k miles interval is not viable anymore. It is written on Toyota service manual in EU and USA. The only stupid things in EU-UK is 60k miles of Iridium denso interval meanwhile in USA is 120k miles interval with exactly same plugs and engines. I think European does not feel comfortable having sparkplugs that long and how reliable with long service interval Toyota are
Edited by Johnhamann on 06/06/2021 at 08:30
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just rereading this old post. i now drive Toyota yaris hybrid . the main dealers here are far away better than anywhere else i;ve visited the last few years. they seem quite sympathetic to DIYers. will give trade discount on their oil when buying a service kit 0-20 oil and filters £ 70 at recent visit
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Hi,
Saw you referencing one of my old BITOG posts. I too am banned (for the third time!). If you want to know anything about the slippery stuff, feel free to ask.
SoJ
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Thanks. The policy of only having moderators from Alabama no doubt has positive discrimination benefits, but there are downsides for other minorities
I was told "This is a permanent ban"the first time (though I had had plenty of previous posts take a one-way trip to Guantanamo) ) so I don't suppose I'll get a "Third Time Loser" opportunity.
Edited by edlithgow on 21/06/2021 at 01:50
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BITOG is a strange place to be these days. It seems to attract all sorts of American cranks & weirdos, all utterly convinced of their own infallibility! It's a shame because there are some genuinely interesting people on there but their voices always get drowned out by mentalists. After my third ban (I alluded to the events Jan 6th which offended the Mods) I decided to call it a day.
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Hi,
Saw you referencing one of my old BITOG posts. I too am banned (for the third time!). If you want to know anything about the slippery stuff, feel free to ask.
SoJ
Well, since you offer, how about the thin V. thick thing?
More specifically, the "Thin oil gets there fastest with the mostest" thing?
My understanding of the counter-argument is that a positive displacement oil pump delivers a set volume of oil per revolution, essentially independent of the oil viscosity, so oiling time for the top-end is not much affected by the oil used
Shannow used to quote the data I reference above in support of this, BUT
(a) Its pretty thin data/, IIRC the original source used tappet noise to determine oiling time, hardly definitive.
(b) As I noted, the data does actually show an oiling time difference, though its significance would be a matter of speculation.
Slightly hard to believe there isn’t better information available on this rather basic question.
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Hi,
Saw you referencing one of my old BITOG posts. I too am banned (for the third time!). If you want to know anything about the slippery stuff, feel free to ask.
SoJ
Well, since you offer, how about the thin V. thick thing?
More specifically, the "Thin oil gets there fastest with the mostest" thing?
My understanding of the counter-argument is that a positive displacement oil pump delivers a set volume of oil per revolution, essentially independent of the oil viscosity, so oiling time for the top-end is not much affected by the oil used
Shannow used to quote the data I reference above in support of this, BUT
(a) Its pretty thin data/, IIRC the original source used tappet noise to determine oiling time, hardly definitive.
(b) As I noted, the data does actually show an oiling time difference, though its significance would be a matter of speculation.
Slightly hard to believe there isn’t better information available on this rather basic question.
Car oil pumps are designed to deliver a defined pressure and not flow. Many modern designs electronically control pressure see page 13 onwards of this self study program about the VW 1.0tsi engine
www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/indian-car-scen...f
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Be that as it may, flow seems to be the relevant parameter to the question under discussion. i.e. how long does it take for oil to arrive at the top-end?
I don’t have an oil pressure gauge, but I THINK in a traditional/conventional/classical/mechanical/whatever oil pump the pressure is not regulated, so your statement is not generally correct.
Oil pressure is said to vary with temperature, the viscosity of the oil, and the design and state of the lubrication system. There is an oil pressure bypass valve but its my understanding that only operates at fairly extreme back pressures when the oil is cold at startup, and/ or to bypass a clogged oil filter.
There may be electric pumps that do regulate pressure in recent vehicles (which I don’t know or care much about, because they are in recent vehicles) but that is not yet the general situation.
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Be that as it may, flow seems to be the relevant parameter to the question under discussion. i.e. how long does it take for oil to arrive at the top-end?
In a well designed and maintained engine, it never left the top end. Oil pumps are one way non return devices.
I don’t have an oil pressure gauge, but I THINK in a traditional/conventional/classical/mechanical/whatever oil pump the pressure is not regulated, so your statement is not generally correct.
Not wanting to criticise your lack of knowledge but all engines I have ever seen and read about in Automotive engineering since the 1950's use a pressure relief valve located immediately after the pump in the sump, often built in, that sets the max oil pressure, in older engines, the operating pressure.
There may be electric pumps that do regulate pressure in recent vehicles (which I don’t know or care much about, because they are in recent vehicles) but that is not yet the general situation.
I am not talking electric pump but fine control of pump pressure. Pretty much standard in the last few years, but not in your world of bangernomics extreme.
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“Be that as it may, flow seems to be the relevant parameter to the question under discussion. i.e. how long does it take for oil to arrive at the top-end?
In a well designed and maintained engine, it never left the top end. Oil pumps are one way non return devices.
If that were the case, it would seem to negate the common “Thinner oil gets to the top-end sooner” justification of its use
I don’t have an oil pressure gauge, but I THINK in a traditional/conventional/classical/mechanical/whatever oil pump the pressure is not regulated, so your statement is not generally correct.
Not wanting to criticise your lack of knowledge but all engines I have ever seen and read about in Automotive engineering since the 1950's use a pressure relief valve located immediately after the pump in the sump, often built in, that sets the max oil pressure, in older engines, the operating pressure.
So you are saying oil pressure does not vary? A bit of poking around on the Internyet turns up a lot of disagreement from people who do have oil pressure gauges.
If the pressure relief (AKA bypass) valve determined operating pressure, wouldn't that imply that engines were routinely operating on unfiltered oil? Bit of a design flaw?
There may be electric pumps that do regulate pressure in recent vehicles (which I don’t know or care much about, because they are in recent vehicles) but that is not yet the general situation.
I am not talking electric pump but fine control of pump pressure. Pretty much standard in the last few years, but not in your world of bangernomics extreme.
Yes, I hope I’ll never be personally involved with “the last few years” technology, though it is of mild academic interest
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So you are saying oil pressure does not vary? A bit of poking around on the Internyet turns up a lot of disagreement from people who do have oil pressure gauges.
If the pressure relief (AKA bypass) valve determined operating pressure, wouldn't that imply that engines were routinely operating on unfiltered oil? Bit of a design flaw?
Please read this carefully, I will say this only once....
The oil pump pressure relief valve is mounted in or straight after the pump. It is a regulating device to limit and set oil delivery pressure. Consists of a spring loaded valve. Because they are simple devices, the pressure will vary slightly dependent on oil temperature, viscosity and pump flow/dump rate. But only very slightly.
It is NOT the filter bypass valve, which is mounted upstream, either in the filter itself in the case of a metal cartrige filter or in the filter housing in the case of a paper filter.
On older designs and worn out engines, the pump may be not be able to supply sufficient flow at low or idle speeds and the pressure may be lower than the design operating pressure, and the relief valve remains shut.
Read these and understand
86.43.94.97/moodlecp9a/mod/resource/view.php?id=103
www.highpowermedia.com/Archive/the-oil-pressure-re...e
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Oh Yeh. I was equating the relief valve with the filter bypass valve, which is t***. IIRC long ago I removed and cleaned the relief valve on my BMC B series (in the side of the block) because it was there, so I’ve no excuse for that mistake other than missing brain cells.
Re “On older designs and worn out engines, the pump may be not be able to supply sufficient flow at low or idle speeds and the pressure may be lower than the design operating pressure, and the relief valve remains shut.” Suppose it depends what you mean by “older” but it does seem to be pretty widespread.
Heres someone worrying about it on a 2006 Xterra, in 2017. He thinks its broken. I’d have thought it was just working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_UJBQw9CuE
Oil pressure is the gauge in the lower right quadrant. There seems to be concern about this because its an actual gauge and people are more used to “oil pressure warning needles” that don’t actually show oil pressure so stay steady. Gets mentioned on Mazda Miata forums because they have been fitted with both at various times.
Edited by edlithgow on 23/06/2021 at 13:16
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FWIW, I equate oil pressure with blood pressure; no one ever died of low blood pressure!
In truth, no engineer worth his salt gives a flying fig about oil pressure, it's all about OIL FLOW. It's a bit like electricity; what you actually want is Ampage, with Voltage simply being what you require to overcome a specific Resistance. The Voltage might need to be high if you've got a large Resistance but if the Resistance is low, Voltage can happily be dropped.
PS - although it's been several decades since I was at uni, I can claim to know a bit about the science of Fluid Dynamics & how pumps work.
Edited by Peter Growcott on 19/07/2021 at 09:33
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FWIW, I equate oil pressure with blood pressure; no one ever died of low blood pressure!
Zero blood pressure usually means you are dying or dead. ;)
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Right now, as I sit in the garden eating my sandwich, my car has zero oil pressure. However it is far from dead & as soon as I put the key in the ignition, it will roar into life!
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Hi,
Sorry for the delay in getting back. I forgot to write down my password & couldn't log back in!
I am ambidextrous on the thick vs thin arguement; the truth is both are acceptable. In the normal course of events, a car will see oil that's both thick (starting up on winter mornings) & thin (tazzing along the M3 in summer). If I reached one conclusion in all the time I spent messing about with oil, it's that the internal combustion engine is incredibly tolerant & forgiving of oil quality. I've seen engines operating happily with less that 10% of their original oil charge left. I've also seen oils get to the end of an extreme 100 hour test with a 100°C Kinomatic Viscosity of >4000 centistokes (literally too thick to measure!).
That said, in practice, I am a 'thinnie' in that my car gets fed on a GF-5 0W20. As an engineer, I see it as the logical choice. It's the best oil for fuel economy & my little Suzuki typically squeezes 70 mpg out of standard unleaded. Also, as it's 0W, you know it's full synthetic (almost certainly Group III hydrocracked; not PAO/ester). As someone who typically drives just 5,000 miles per year, I'm quite happy to change the oil every TWO years. I equate the standard 'change your oil every year' recommendation with the dentist telling you need to come in for a check-up every six months; the advice is self-serving & purposely benefits him way more than it does you.
You shouldn't really equate 'thin' with excessive wear. These days, most wear protection comes from the additives in the oil & NOT the base oil system. That said, if you're into track days, as opposed to normal pootling about, you need to think thick with extra anti wear.
Edited by Peter Growcott on 19/07/2021 at 09:44
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I think you mean "ambivalent" rather than "ambidextrous", unless you mean "on the one hand, but on the other?
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I did actually mean ambidextrous in that I can turn my hand to both thick & thin. Ambivalent suggests vagueness or that you just don't care, neither of which apply.
One of the less well known aspects of oil development is that you rarely develop AN oil (in the singular). Rather to develop a matrix of oils simultaneously. So when you buy say a 10W40 oil for example, the supporting test matrix might consist of results from 10W30, 15W40 & 20W50 oils as well as 10W40 oil. Once you know this, the whole 'thick vs thin' debate becomes a bit silly.
Edited by Peter Growcott on 19/07/2021 at 10:44
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Ambivalent suggests vagueness or that you just don't care
Count me in as ambivalent.
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I did actually mean ambidextrous in that I can turn my hand to both thick & thin. Ambivalent suggests vagueness or that you just don't care, neither of which apply.
The term I'd have used is "adaptable". A good quality to have in any occupation or speciality. :-)
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Original Thread - Mannol Oil
Bought some Mannol Fully Synthetic, premium Ester containing, Legend Ultra, 7918, 0w-20, 5 Ltrs. for £22. Its labelled as SAE 0w-20, API SP(RC), ILSAC GF-6A. it lists 11 car makes that it says its suitable for including some standards :- Honda HTO-06, GM Dexos 1 Gen 2 and 6094M ,Jaguar LR ST JLR 51.5122, Ford WSS 947 -A and B1, Infiniti, Lexus, etc. I am looking at putting it in my 10 yr old Toyota Auris Hybrid which requires 0w-20.
Also bought 5Ltrs of 5w-40 Fully Synth from Wilkinson stores for £12 on offer for an older Skoda Fabia with 150k Mls, it says its API SL, ACEA A3/B3 standard and sutible for MB, VW and REN with their current standards listed ( Note says suitable for - not approved by) I am happy to put it in the Skoda. After 19 oil changes in its life it burns NO oil atall.
Bearing in mind the Skoda is a 2001 vintage and used to be specified for a mineral 10w-40 when just out of the factory.
My point is : The standards are getting better and better all the time. The Mannol offering looks bang up to date on the face of it, higher than the API SN, ILSAC GF-5 which the Toyota dealers sell in 5L Cans whilst loading a 'Bulk 0W/20' in at a service oil change for twice the price of the Mannol.
Should I worry ? I change my oil and filters every 12months or 10k mls or therabouts. What can possibly go wrong?
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Also I see the complaint against Mannol is closed.
28/07/2021 VLS undertook a six month review of the case and concluded that the product was in continued compliance at this stage. Consequently the complaint has been met and the case resolved.
ukla-vls.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/5.18-VLS-010166...f
Anybody can get a bit confused by a bit of product labelling ? !!?? Could have been the labelling supplier ? Mmmmm ?
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Hi,
Reading between the lines, this vindicates Mannol.
You have to understand that 'over-claiming' of oil specs is an industry-wide problem that has been going on for years. The culprits are usually the Big 4 American additive companies, who do the lion's share of the worlds finished engine oil development. They pass on what they're claiming to the oil blenders (companies like Mannol) who then blindly repeat it. One particular AddCo is notorious for claiming specs that aren't necessarily 100% kosher!
For what it's worth, today I bought 5 litres of Mannol 0W20 off Amazon for wifey's Celerio. It claims to be a simple ILSAC GF-5 oil. Is it actually a 0W20? I suspect it is as this is too easy for any curious party to check; so tick. Is it a GF-5 oil? Impossible to check but probably yes as GF-5 was ubiquitous in the US for the last decade & it's easy to engineer; so another tick. Is it, as claimed, a full 'proper' PAO/ester synthetic? This I have s problem with. At £19.97 for a 5 litre can, it feels 'too cheap' to be full PAO/ester. That said, even if the oil was made from Group III hydro cracked stocks, I'd be happy; so tick (sort of!).
Finally, I bought the Mannol 0W20 because it was HALF the price of the Petronas Syntium 7000 0W20 I usually buy (which cost TWICE as much as I paid for it in 2019). I know what goes into oil & it's not that complicated & I'm damned if I'm going to get suckered into paying double for what is essentially the same thing!!
Edited by Peter Growcott on 30/08/2021 at 19:13
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It's neither 'not guilty', nor 'guilty'. In Scots law, that would meet 'not proven', at very best.
Surprisingly this seems to be par for the course for many apparently basic questions about oil.
Big Money, advertising, proprietory concerns and hidden complexity do not make for clarity
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Thank you Peter and Mikeinho for your replies. Happy to defer to your technical knowledge of the field.
I am reasonably happy about using Mannol or any other brand thats sold in Asda, Tesco or Wilco IF and only If the standards listed stand up to reasonable scrutiny and the cost advantage is clear.
I am not a Tribologist by training but if an oil says its fully synthetic and ILSAF - 6A which seems to be the latest modern standard, as well as API SL(RC) and its ACEA equiv, I am fairly happy that I am not putting unrefined rape seed or some other inappropiate liquid into the high quality and tight tolerances of my car's engine but a decent oil for 12 months use.
But I have never quite grasped why GM have defined their own DEXOS standard, Ford theirs, VW their own, Renault, etc , etc. Marketing?, Restrictive own channel sales?
The Mannol 7918 Legend Ultra I bought on Ebay for about £22 meets some of these car makers standards but what they actually mean I am none the wiser? Can anybody explain? Are there differences between oils these manufacturers put in their cars? I was happy that Lexus and Infiniti were listed, both Toyota group Brands I understand.
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Been using Mannol 5w40 fully synthetic 504/507 7715 for years in my 1Z5 PD Octy Diesel. Covered 6 oil changes over 60k miles - absolutely no problems at all. Uses a smidge of oil (car is at 140k), but that's mainly due to a bit of sump gasket leakage. Also use Mannol 5w40 in the Citigo - again, no problems at all.
Whatever the case with oils, they make their claims on their labels and it's up to the authorities to decide whether they're conning people or not. IMO, companies build their businesses on reputation, not ripping people off and lying to them. If Mannol wanted to risk their business by telling porkies and selling dodgy products, I'm sure they wouldn't be trading now.
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Oh, and I was paying around £50 for 20 litres.
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I also have been using Mannol oil for several years, since I found it in fact. Providing it meets the spec required I can't see a problem - especially at that price.
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Same here, I've been putting Mannoil in my diesel peugeot partner for its whole 9 year life with no issues whatsoever.
When you read the specs they exceed some of the industry's big boys anyway.
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I've been using it in everything for a few years now, never had a problem.
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i believe it is up to the oil companies to test and certify their own oil, so what is on the label is down to them,does any independant body check.
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