The future of SUVs - Dave_TD
poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.html
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Perfect for dealing with the rest of the idiots on the road. I've always wanted to drive a Kenny, and it matches those monster supermarket trolleys they have at Sam's.

I'll be selling the house and putting my order in. Thanks.
The future of SUVs - volvoman
Slightly OT I know but I saw plenty of Kenworths whilst I was working in Abu-Dhabi - awesome things !

Strangest sight, however, was a massive Kenworth we came across on a graded sand track in the desert. God knows what it had in the back but whatever it was must've shifted and been very heavy 'cos we found it levered up in the air via its rear axle. The cab was so high off the ground I could stand under the front wheels and pretend to be lifting it up in the air. We hung around for a while but nobody came so we never found out what had happened. Even our Bedouin navigators couldn't explain !

If I hadn't got the photos to prove it I wouldn't believe it !
The future of SUVs - Oz
Looking forward (not) to seeing mums using these to drop their kids off at our local schools. :-0
Oz (as was)
The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
Car Junkies did a report on SUV's and 4x4 vehicles last night on BBC2. They're not as safe as people like to think they are.
The future of SUVs - Dwight Van Driver
That's not fair DD.

They panned the Ford Explorer with evidence and quite rightly so.

The others they left alone and could only make vague references?

FiF would be interested that the RESIURCDNAL ATOYOT was not mentioned.

DVD

The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
That's not fair DD.
They panned the Ford Explorer with evidence and quite rightly so.
The others they left alone and could only make vague references?


Vague references - oh yes; such as narrow wheel bases and high centres of gravity on most SUV's, thus making them easier to roll over than a regular car to take the kids to school in!!
The future of SUVs - nick
Maybe easier to roll over but I'd rather be in one than a eurobox in a collision. Size and weight count then. I've driven 4x4s for years and unless you drive like a prat they are perfectly safe. The problem is 'ordinary' car drivers who buy them and expect car-like handling. The manufacturers should shoulder some blame by the way they advertise them.
The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
I'd rather be in one than a eurobox in a collision. Size and
weight count then.


The trouble is - and the program was also trying to point this out - is that more and more people are buying 4x4's and SUV's. The eventual likehood being that while you think that you're be safer in a collision in a larger heavier vehicle, if another 4x4/SUV hits you, then you won't be!!
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
if another 4x4/SUV hits you, then you won't be!!


you'll still be safer than if you were in a Mini when the SUV hit you.
The future of SUVs - GRowlette
We have the Lariat 4 X 4....

www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f-150/glance/index.asp...w

Big G says when they import a bigger one he'll buy it.

Meanwhile we have the Harley Davidson F-150 supercharged version on order for 2004.

.....he says big inches matter, cubic ones ...anyway I love them. Big comfy and safe feeling and others get out of the way.

The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
4x4s are perfectly safe provided one remembers that one is not driving a car.

And as nick said, I know which I'd rather be in when boy racer decides to do something dumb.
The future of SUVs - Citroënian {P}
4x4s are perfectly safe provided one remembers that one is not driving a car

For the occupants, not the anyone else unless you happen to be a truck. Have a think. Would you prefer someone you care for to be run down by a normal car or a mini-lorry? Oh yes, of course because there's so many people driving these things now we're all too scared to let our kids walk to school.

Lee.

"What are you compensating for?" - MINI advertising campaign in USA


The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
>>4x4s are perfectly safe provided one remembers that one is not driving a car

>>For the occupants, not the anyone else unless you happen to be a truck.

No. Perfectly safe for everyone - provided that you are aware of what you are driving. In a 4WD that means, amongst many other things, slower in general, slower around corners, longer braking distances, etc.

It only takes an amount of personal responsibility to be safe. Funnily enough it doesn't take any amount of other people's jealousy or disapproval. I don't drive one to please anyone else. Not anyone at all.

I can't say I feel too much responsibility for someone else running into me if it was there fault. Unless we're going to remove walls, trees, traffic signs, large buidings and many other things somewhat more dangerous to hit than a SUV.
The future of SUVs - Micky
">Perfectly safe for everyone - provided that you are aware of what you are driving. In a 4WD that means, amongst many other things, slower in general, slower around corners, longer braking distances, etc.<"

In the real world it doesn't happen, most SUV drivers haven't a clue about the reduced capabilities of their machines. Most SUV drivers have minimal or no off-road skills at all (so why buy an SUV?)

"> I can't say I feel too much responsibility for someone else running into me if it was there fault<"

Does that include a child running into the road? Probably not your fault, so that's alright then is it? Drive a car and the risk to the child is reduced, lower mass = shorter stopping distance and improved handling to avoid collision; sloping car bonnet = reduced impact force to child.

If protection for the car's occupants is the prime concern, then drive a Laguna, not an SUV.
The future of SUVs - Tomo.
I did like Suburban Useless Vehicle!

Tomo
The future of SUVs - dave18
To be billed in the future as the ultimate 4WD/truck/MPV hybrid? Amusing picture.
I thought the car wars program was interesting this week,better than the anti-motoring drivel last week. Its quite sad how people choose big lumbering near-tank soze things when the same money would buy a nice little sports car but its their money, their choice. The safety issue is,however, concerning.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
It's pretty irresponsible to think "I'm safe in my 4x4, forget everybody else". large heavy vehicles tend to cause extensive damage to whatever they hit - 4x4 drivers cause accidents sometimes too!

I remember speaking to someone from Porsche a while ago who hated Volvos with a passion because whilst they kept the occupants safe they took no account of the damage they may do to the person/vehicle they hit.
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
I'm having trouble with this, help me out here someone. So I should pick my vehicle with due regard to the possibility I might come off better in an accident with something less well constructed, and this somehow is unfair?


The future of SUVs - Electro Man
A responsibly designed vehicle will protect its occupants and have due regard for the person/vehicle it may hit as well
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
The inference from your example being that Volvos (SUV's w-h-y) are not responsibly designed?
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
You picked out the wrong part from my argument really. I am not trying to single out Volvo or any of the 4x4 manufacturers

Many cars emphasise that their cars are safe and protect their OCCUPANTS, and that is the principle used in their design.

In an accident both vehicles should absorb the impact equally (as far as possible) to distribute the force over the largest area possible. If one car is significantly stronger than the other it will inevitably mean that the "less strong" car bears the brunt of the impact.

If you think of an example of a large 4x4 plowing into the side of a standard family saloon - inevitably the family saloon will be worse of, more so than if it had been hit by another family saloon, because the 4x4 does not absorb its "share" of the impact and merely forces it onto the car it has hit.

It is not a case of "lesser" cars being not strong enough, more of some cars being built under the principle that no one else matters except the driver.

The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Well, if I'm the driver and it's me who's the example in your last para I'll settle for that. I don't make my vehicle choice after a detailed consideration of what the rest of the motoring public might prefer me to have.

If I have an accident, whether it's my fault or the other guy's it's my nearest who matter to me, and I don't feel any obligation to somehow "share" the same extent of messed up body parts as him just because it's PC.


The future of SUVs - Electro Man
I'm sorry that you don't feel any obligations to other road users. Everyone is someone else's nearest. The only comfort is that eventually such selfish attitudes will be taxed off the roads.
The future of SUVs - Citroënian {P}
I'm sorry that you don't feel any obligations to other road users. Everyone is someone else's nearest.

Couldn't agree with you more. Well put.

Lee.

Lee
"What are you compensating for?" - MINI advertising campaign in USA
The future of SUVs - nick
The bottom line is:

they're legal, I love driving them, I don't set out to have an accident, I pay for the pleasure through fuel taxes. If you don't like them, don't drive them.

I think on balance though that bull bars should be banned. Manufacturers go to great lengths these days (even 4x4 makers!) to make the front of their vehicles are safer for pedestrians (even if they are forced to by legislation) by not fitting protruding mascots etc and by fitting softer bumpers. Then it's legal to fit chrome plated scaffold poles to the front. Seems a bit odd to me.

Regarding accident safety, if I'm going to hit a 4x4 I'd rather be in another 4x4 than anything else. Extending the logic of some posters that they shouldn't be driven because they'd flatten a eurobox, then surely buses and lorries should be banned too? Or cars capable of exceeding 70mph? After all, it's illegal to go faster, and a faster impact causes more damage.
The future of SUVs - DavidHM
I'm ambivalent about 4x4s - I don't like them, don't want them, most people don't need them, but I would hate to see people coming up with legislation to ban them. It would be hard to design, have a serious effect on individual liberty and largely unworkable, even without for the fact that some people genuinely need them for their work. (Probably fewer than need buses or trucks, and individuals don't buy those, but that's another issue).

As for bull bars though - of course they should be banned. This isn't Australia where you have to run over a kangaroo every month or so to prove your manhood... Seriously, they mess up crumple zones and massively increase repair costs, meaning that accidents are more dangerous for 4x4 drivers and the people they hit. So how exactly can they be a good idea?
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Couple of things here: first only a proportion of SUV's are 4 X 4, family vans etc are 4 X 2 as are most pickup trucks. More Expeditions, and Suburbans are sold with 4 X 2 than 4 X 4 for example.

Second: you don't want to hit a 'roo in Aus, old buddy. Odds are you will come off worst, 'roo bar or no and no cockie in his right mind goes looking to mow one down. Any idea of the effect of colliding with a 400lb boomer in the dark at 80 kph? Besides you need something to hang your water bag from....

The SUV owner most probably looks for space, comfort, decent size engine instead of some rattly little number which runs out of breath on hills and needs constant gear shifting, ride height so can he get a better view of what's going on, the feeling he's got more than a few fag-packet thicknesses of door between him and his loved ones and Mondeo man. He trades off gas mileage, parking difficulties, higher running costs and the problem of driving on roads (in UK anyway) designed with Fiestas and Micros in mind spacewise..

Ten years back, maybe even five, who heard of the SUV as a concept? Why is it increasingly popular?

I hear the British "crab mentality" at work here.


The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
I thought bull bars were already illegal on cars newer than n years that weren't fitted with them as standard.

Or am I confused ?

If they are not illegal, they certainly should be.
The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
I thought bull bars were already illegal on cars newer than
n years that weren't fitted with them as standard.
Or am I confused ?


According to Car Junkies that was on Sunday the Government haven't yet finished pulling their finger out and established whether to ban them or not. It was proposed, but never actioned, IIRC. I think I still have the video somewhere; I'll see if I can find out *what* was actually said.
The future of SUVs - nick
Mark, AFAIU it is illegal for manufacturers to fit or supply bull bars for their vehicles, which is why your friendly main dealer can no longer supply a Toyota-approved one for your Landcruiser. However, it is perfectly legal for an aftermarket supplier to sell and fit one. Crazy or what?
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
nick -

That's dumb. As it happens I wouldn't fit them, but you'd think that allowing them was going just too far.
The future of SUVs - Dan J
I remember citing this as one reason why you wouldn't get me to sit in a parked MCC Smart - let alone a moving one.

Creates an interesting issue though doesn't it? One reason why these very small and light cars that manufacturers are being "encouraged" to build won't pass through crash testing and end up binned (FIAT Ecobasic anyone?).

If we were all driving lightweight plastic chassised cars - cool. 90mpg and a pretty equal chance in an accident.

Against a Range Rover or s**ding great artic? You might as well stick a wreath in the boot for the inevitable!

Dan J
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
The future is here now, hehe

www.hummer.com/hummerjsp/index.jsp

I wish I could pull up in front of my daughter's flat in Tunbridge Wells, toss the keys to the nearset traffic warden and say, park this will you?!
The future of SUVs - Maz
An SUV is more likely to cause serious injury or death in a crash. They are also statistically more likely to crash than an ordinary car. Thirdly, they use larger amounts of the world's finite resources, both to build and to run.

It seems indisputable to me that as a choice they are anti-social for the above reasons. Making them illegal is very heavy handed and likely to breed resentment.

Personally, I would like to see a campaign similar to that in the programme, where campaigners attempted to educate their drivers. Provided that owners are aware of their anti-social nature they can choose whether or not to drive them.

And yes, I'd even be happy to give up some spare time to do it.
The future of SUVs - T Lucas
Yes to all that,but big Landcruisers,Pajeros and double cab trucks etc do look so good(especially with big chrome bull bars).
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
...and raised suspension, fat chunky Yokohamas, four spots on the bullbar, a nice big protruding tow-ball at grille height for any BMW that wants to get intimate at 80 mph, gunrack in the rear window and a bumper sticker reading "Insurance by Smith & Wesson".

If it's a crew-cab pickup have a Harley Softail pro-street in the back ready to rock and a Confederate flag flying from the radio antenna.


The future of SUVs - madf
I think what you all missed - and repeaeated in the TV program was:
the SUV success in the States owes most of it to the facts that:
SUVs are exepmt from US fuel consumption regulations (they are defined as light trucks)
SUVs are exempt from most car safety regulations.


Each to their own: but becuase they don't steer as well, corner as well or stop as well as any normal car suggests they are more dangerous to others..

Personally I support the move to bigger ones: they will not be able to park in most carparks:-) let alone multi storey ones..

Tax SUVs by weight I say:-)

madf
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Yup, "I don't like 'em so I don't see why you should have one".
"Well actually, no, I've never driven one, but they must be bad because it said so on TV".

My F-150 stops and steers as well as anything I've ever driven. It requires knowledgable driving technique in certain situations but that's because it isn't a Honda Civic. For that matter so does a Porsche 911 if you've never owned one. Or indeed that wonderful superannuated British 4 X 4 icon the Land Rover.

My SUV (it's a 4 X 4 and remember most are NOT) has to balance on vs off road capability so that I can go volcano bashing up the slopes of Mt Pinatubo in 4WD on Sunday with some proficiency and still handle the Monday morning expressway high speed duelling with equal aplomb.

You also are using a narrow definition of SUV: the Kia Starex, the Isuzu Crosswind, Toyota Revo are all classified the same, but are 4 X 2 10 or 12 seaters which probably use less resources per passenger on that basis.

If someday the Eurocracy wants to have everyone in hydrogen-powered Smarts like some updated version of 1960's East Germany where everyone had a Trabant, well count me out. As for use of resources, a 50,000 miles a year Mondeo which falls to bits in 3 years is surely no more of a resource hog in the final analysis than a Nissan Patrol covering 200,000 in 8 years and still good for another 5 and still holds a meaningful residual.

...anyway, PC-mobiles don't have a power take off point on the dash for a small fridge and 8 cupholders.......


The future of SUVs - Electro Man
>
My F-150 stops and steers as well as anything I've ever
driven.


you must have driven some pretty ropey cars!! :-)
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Tell me about your experience of driving an F-150 then, and how it differs from mine...I'd be interested to know why America's most popular choice of truck didn't meet with your approval...

The future of SUVs - Electro Man
My Uncle in the US drives an F-150XLT 4.6 auto. I had an (admittedly short) drive when I saw him last. It was certainly powerful but didn't feel secure in corners and seemed to take a frighteningly long time to stop.


My uncle does say that it is the best he has ever driven though.
The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
My Uncle in the US drives an F-150XLT 4.6 auto.
It was certainly powerful but didn't feel secure in corners
and seemed to take a frighteningly long time to stop.


That's because it doesn't share the same characteristics as a car - ie, high C.O.G. and a lot heavier. As mentioned earlier in the thread, people jump in these things nad expect them to drive and handle like a car.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
That's what I was getting at, I find it hard to believe that anyone would thing they handle as well as a "normal" car.
The future of SUVs - Dynamic Dave
That's what I was getting at, I find it hard to
believe that anyone would thing they handle as well as a
"normal" car.


But in your earlier post you mentioned - quote:- "It was certainly powerful but didn't feel secure in corners and seemed to take a frighteningly long time to stop"

By that statement of yours, that says to me that you were trying to drive the F-150XLT 4.6 auto in the same manner as you would drive a car and also expect it to handle like one!!
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
Good grief.

I was replying to Growlers note

"My F-150 stops and steers as well as anything I've ever driven."

and merely saying that it doesn't handle like a normal car and no one would expect it to, which is why I suggested he hadn't driven particuarly well handling cars. I'm not disagreeing with you.

It was only a throw away comment to begin with, give me a break!!! :-)
The future of SUVs - No Do$h
Having just got back from the Alps last night I lowered my guard and put on "Men & Motahs" for a bit of mindless relaxation, to be confronted with another of those endless police chase programmes. This one focussed on the "TiP" manouvere, where a US police cruiser nudges the "perps" car just to the rear of the rear axle, causing it to spin.

They showed countless examples of this being applied to saloons, light pick-ups and hatchbacks, all of which spun out and came to a halt. Then it was the turn of an SUV. It rolled about 3 times after the gentlest of touches. Now admittedly this is a manouvere intended to spin car, but it is very similar to the impact you may get if a car nudges you whilst changing lanes and it is likely to be exacerbated by braking, as you would get in a sudden lane change.

Personally I don't have a problem being in a "euro-box" in the event of an impact with an SUV. Like Mark (RLS) I drive to survive and try and maintain a reasonable distance from everything around me, so the chances of a sudden and unavoidable impact are reduced.

BTW, in over 1800 miles I witnessed lunacy by one Range Rover driver (est.120mph through st.gotthard tunnel) and one very dead bmw driver (clipped armco, went up bank, clipped underside of bridge and crashed back down on its roof). Also witnessed some horribly good driving from drivers of all makes, but on the Autoroutes there's never any traffic anyway. Some may use this as an argument against BMWs and SUVs. Personally, I think it's an argument against the abilities of those two drivers, nothing else.

Suffice to say, after 2 and a half hours on british Mways yesterday, I want to go back to France!!!!
The future of SUVs - PhilW
>>"My SUV (it's a 4 X 4 and remember most are NOT) has to balance on vs off road capability so that I can go volcano bashing up the slopes of Mt Pinatubo in 4WD on Sunday with some proficiency and still handle the Monday morning expressway high speed duelling with equal aplomb.<<"

Growler,
You have hit the nail on the head here - you can justify an SUV. But it's hard to justify as a school run vehicle especially if it has huge "lethal" bull- bars. What gets me (and I have no real axe to grind here - if you like them buy one) is that many are not suited to their purpose and are merely to create an impression. I pass 2 each morning on my way to work - b***** great Shoguns which are magnificent off road vehicles but they have alloy wheels with at least 17 inch 205/40(?) tyres so they would be useless off road and they have the full body kit so that ground clearance is about 6 (?) inches. So what is the point except for image? And the image is "that looks, and is, b***** ridiculous!!" Ok, so it's my problem, and these blokes like their cars. But do they really want to be laughed at? Or don't they realise? Or is it just me?. Must go and sharpen my pencil, but where's the chain saw?
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
...yeah I know, they are getting a bit common. Not sure how useful an angle of tilt indicator is when you're tackling the challenges of Tesco's car park. Everyone and his dog seems to have got one these days. Honda even make that dinky little CR-V for the wannabe's who haven't quite got there yet. It's getting harder to stand out when you double park outside Junior's school. Of course you could go one better and get the optional power winch fitted on the front....

Us afficionadoes will have to move the goalposts lest we get tarred with the same brush.

I've been looking at the Mack truck catalogs......


The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Yes, I got stung on this one, but in reverse. When I bought my F-150 pick-up it was taxed as that, a pick-up, commercial vehicle etc. For which I paid about £26 equivalent road tax p.a. Last year when I renewed it it now qualifies as an SUV and I had to pay nearly £50 equivalent. OK, OK, no need for the violins....
The future of SUVs - T Lucas
Forgot to mention,but i like mine with chrome ladders on the back and dark,very dark privacy glass,its a shame really in the UK that we can't have them with the real engines,i always have to make do with a coal burner.
The future of SUVs - jd
>>Provided that owners are aware of their anti-social nature>>

Strange argument...... are you saying that ALL people who drive Land Rovers, Landcruisers. RAV4's, Freelanders, X5's and so on are anti-social ?

Regardless of how they drive, what their beliefes are etc.etc.??

You could level the same accusations at ANY area of the motoring such as any car that does more than 70mph, accelerates faster than another and is slightly louder than another.

It gets me how people say how pointless SUV's are and then disregard any other vehicle (of which there are many) that doesn't quite fit in with their image of what we shoukld be driving.

To say people who purchase a particular style of vehicle are anti-social is ridiculous.....

JD
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
>>To say people who purchase a particular style of vehicle are anti-social is ridiculous.....

Which can only come from;

1) Jealousy
2) An "I don't want to, so you are not allowed to" attitude
3) Ummmmmm...

People make exactly the same comments about vanity/private plates - I don't want one, its not how I choose to spend my money; but its not my money or my choice. I never have understood why it makes them sad in some other peoples' eyes.

Ditto baseball caps on backwards. I think its uncomfortable, but then someone else wearing them doesn't affect me.

We spend much too much time worrying about what other people do with their lives and/or money.

Until a year ago I could justify having one to anybody - I lived in the mountains. To be honest, now I have one because I like them.

And why shouldn't I ? If you don't want one, then don;t have one. I wouldn't drive a Mini, but you can if you like.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
I think you are missing the point. private plates don't directly effect other road users in a day to day situation. Certain choices that people make do affect other people and if there is no considereation of this affect then surely they are being anti-social.

What other people choose to do is of no concern to me as long as their choice does not affect me or any one else.
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
Someone choosing a 4x4 doesn't affect you in the least. How they drive it might.

However, that's true whatever they are driving.

Anything to be said about the appalling way the most SUVs are driven is generally pretty accurate. I would not even see it unreasonable that a difference driving licence category applied, they are quite different to drive.

But lets focus on how they are driven, not whether or not somebody should be permitted to have one because of other people's jealousy or disapproval.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
Someone choosing a 4x4 doesn't affect you in the least.


Thats rubbish. If they are consuming resources at three times the rate of everyone else then they are affecting me.

Trying to say that everybody is jealous is a desperate stab to defend the indefensible!
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
That argument can be equally well applied to a cyclist who might assert you are also affecting him by driving a car instead of using a bicycle.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
Yes
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
What do you drive ? Do you use public transport and/or a bicycle and/or your feet whenever you can ? What does it do to the gallon ?

Do you avoid unneccessary journeys ? Do you always drive at the most efficient rev-range and speed for your car ? Is it always perfectly in tune ?

Put your own house in order before you start worrying about mine.

The future of SUVs - Electro Man
I drive a small car which does about 45MPG and catch the train to work. It is regularly serviced.

You seem to be very defensive, are you perhaps realising that your choice is selfish?
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
>>You seem to be very defensive, are you perhaps realising that your choice is selfish?

No. And I would have said I was being offensive rather than defensive. I am secure in the knowledge that you can't do anything about it. Sad that your life would be so empty that my activities are more interesting than your own, though.

And I have three of them - 4-Runner, Landcruiser and Dodge Ram. Two of them I need, one of them I drive for no better reason than the fact that I want to.

The future of SUVs - Electro Man
oh dear. I am sorry that you have come to the end of your intellectual argument and have had to resort to insults.

The days of your "security" are numbered. Pretty soon you will have to give them up. Fact.
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
>>Fact.

Fact ? Well if that's your definition of a fact I won't worry about the future too much.

>>... to the end of your intellectual argument

An intellectual argument would have been somewhat inappropriate, don't you feel ?
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
An intellectual argument would have been somewhat inappropriate, don't you feel
?

...or impossible depending on how you look at it.
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
This old battleground: SUV's vs the rest, like the Harley vs the cookie cutter Rice Rocket - is such an emotive topic and it seems to bring out all kinds of tub-thumping moralisation which is more often than not predicated on prejudice and ignorance than anything else. The eco-freaks particularly are disgracefully guilty of false and misleading propaganda in this regard, and regrettably inhabit too many positions where they are able to brainwash the younger and more impressionable.
The British "nanny knows best" concept is alive and well.

The loudest critics tend to be those who have no experience of that which they are criticising. I don't go round slagging someone's choice of a Kia Pride if that's what works for him. I have driven one and it's a competent little car. I wouldn't want one but if JUan de la Cruz next door thinks it's right for him, that's none of my concern. As for me I wouldn't be seen dead in a Rover but if that floats some other guy's boat that's no concern of mine. Also I haven't driven one so I'd better zip it before passing any opinions, right?

Now, if anyone presents to me a sensible argument to back up his vehiclular beliefs in difference to mine, I'll usually give him a hearing. At the end of it all we'll probably differ because I've made my choice on the basis of my preferences and he's done the same based on his. If never the twain shall meet let us be glad we still live in a part of the world where that is (still, but watch the Eurocrats) more or less possible.

Your 45 mpg economobile may do 4 times the mileage that Mum's Shogun does. Who knows? If that's the case who's using more resources? Can't generalise without some facts. What are resources for anyway? No point in keeping all that stuff underground if we're all riding around on donkeys and beating our breasts in self-mortification about how we're pursuing some eco-dream for future civilisations. Let's leave that to the Democrats.

An SUV is more dangerous? If that bothers you, don't buy one. But don't lecture those who think differently. I can only say what I feel most safe in is my truck, and if you saw the traffic conditions where I live you would understand that. There also the personal security issue: carnapping, attempted robbery, which is well served by a larger vehicle. I don't think any vehicle is inherently dangerous: however. how it is conducted and the skill of its operator, may indeed constitute it being used dangerously. But that is something else.

It's really live and let live, a commodity I was brought up on by parents who went through a war to ensure it was handed down to me intact, and a also a commodity I find increasingly lacking in the self-appointed moralisers who are appearing from all over to give me there unsolicited and unwanted views on my choice of, in this case, motor vehicle.

I like my SUV, it's fun, I don't do silly things with it, my mileage isn't that great, and it opens up all sorts of recreational possibilities. I can (just did) move a friend's household goods with it to save her money, take two 650lb motorcycles in the back, give 18 construction workers a ride home, sitting in the back, when their shuttle bus broke down on the highway the other day, pull an empty 52 seater stranded bus in a typhoon out of a metre-deep flood last year.....

See what you're missing ;-)

Growlette is rubbing my neck and saying give it a rest, when we get all that Iraqi oil who's going to worry about resources.....


....later

The future of SUVs - Dan J
I drive a small car which does about 45MPG and catch
the train to work. It is regularly serviced.
You seem to be very defensive, are you perhaps realising that
your choice is selfish?


A bit of a holier than thou attitude. What about the guy who has never left his home town and leaves 2 minutes walk from his work? You're using a damn sight more "resources" than he is. Are you being selfish?

Does this mean that anyone who wants to drive or fly for pleasure shouldn't?

What about the thousands of tons of coal/oil that get burnt at the power stations every year to power places like Alton Towers and Blackpool?

It's a free choice. I'll drive what I damn well like whilst the government lets me - My car is far from efficient but just think of all those schools and hospitals I am supporting via the thousands I pay in motor related taxes...
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
>
It's a free choice. I'll drive what I damn well
like whilst the government lets me - My car is far
from efficient but just think of all those schools and hospitals
I am supporting via the thousands I pay in motor related
taxes...


.....and making sure those hospitals are kept full and all of those school children are polluted, destined to a restricted motoring future because we used the resources all up before hand.
The future of SUVs - Morris Ox
Oh gawd...let's all give up and go home now, we're all doomed.

I met that Nostradamus in a pub once...
The future of SUVs - Dan J
Polluted school children?

Where are most modern day airborne and water pollutants coming from? Cars? Er no actually, not that most "green" orientated establishments would have you belive. Industry actually. And they're getting significantly worse as well whilst cars get cleaner. Fact.

So do you think by using your 45mpg car you're making a significantly less impact on the world than if you had a Lancruiser that did 20?

If you hit someone in your car at 40, are they really much more likely to survive than if you were driving something larger? Nope.

We're all going to be using oil for a long time yet - a situation well engineered by oil companies and tax dependent governments. Get used to it.

And if you are genuinely concerned about the earth's pollution issues, join Greenpeace. You'll get to see where 95% of it really does come from...
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
>
Where are most modern day airborne and water pollutants coming from?
Cars? Er no actually, not that most "green" orientated
establishments would have you belive. Industry actually. And they're
getting significantly worse as well whilst cars get cleaner. Fact.


Industry is of course the largest "polluter" in global terms. Cars are still a significant contributor particularly on a local scale - it is not neccesarily industry that can make the air in London choking on hot dry days -. Industry are, as cars are, subject to emmission limits. Power generating stations (particularly coal) are subject to annual emmission limits which are changed over time taxes on energy use aim to reduce consumption and renewable energy can be encouraged with traded mechanisms (such as Carbon trading) or obligations (such as RO)

So do you think by using your 45mpg car you're making
a significantly less impact on the world than if you had
a Lancruiser that did 20?
If you hit someone in your car at 40, are they
really much more likely to survive than if you were driving
something larger? Nope.



Of course not but that is not the argument. But if I hit another car it will undoubtedly do less damage in the same circumstances than the Landcruiser. And use half the fuel in doing so. :-)
We're all going to be using oil for a long time
yet -

and it would last a hell of at lot longer if people used it a slower rate.



The future of SUVs - Steve S
"We spend much too much time worrying about what other people do with their lives and/or money."

Couldn't agree more. The only things that I want to ban - are people who want to ban things.

The whole joy of motoring hangs around the amazing choices we all have.

The risks of being around any vehicles at motorway speeds will always owe more to the attitude and competence each driver.

Frankly, worrying about SUVs being a problem when they collide with you is bizarre when we drive in a crowded country where there are so many vans, coaches, buses & lorries.
The future of SUVs - Daedalus
When I rule the world I will ban the lot of them! They are a total waste of space, resources and petrol to run them. All owners will be taken to a CBT center and be made to ride scooters for 5 years, unless they already use a motorcycle. In which case they will be paid half the market value of the SUV etc on the day before I start to rule the world. And you will have to wear vests and underpants on the outside of the rest of your clothes. All of the above does not apply to anyone who does not have a SUV 4X4 etc or name begins with G.

Bill

The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Just one more and I will go back to Harley-polishing.

There is something very satisfying about a big V-8 pulling an auto trans in 4 X 4 Low Range up a 1 in 7 rocky dried up river bed at 12 kph on cruise control! You know it's going to make it so all you have to do is make sure your beer isn't spilling.

It's when these defining moments arrive that one knows it was worth every cent!




The future of SUVs - No Do$h
Collectively bangs a few heads together.

Children, please! Anybody want to vote that we all drive this years answer to the Trabant, the Toyota Pious? No? Thought not.

This is a motoring forum, for people that like motoring. For those that want to save the world, good luck. We all do our bit in some way or another but I'm not about the sell my Alfa in a fit of pique to satisfy some self-flagellistic streak of guilt as it only does 38mpg. I like it too much.

Yes, I recycle
Yes, I ride my bike when I can
Yes, I walk to the supermarket, despite the fact that they don't actually provide a safe pedestrian access/egress.
Yes, I opt for goods with the lowest production miles wherever I can. I grow my own fruit and veg.
No, I don't want a medal or congratulations or thanks, because;
Yes, I drive across continents for a bit of unadulterated pleasure on the ski-slopes. Very selfish. More pollution created that didn't have to be. So sue me.

I'm doing my bit for ME, not for you. It's not altruistic, it's selfish. Feel free to shoot me.

Now I'm off to wrestle the keys out of my better half's hands so I can do a couple of miles for the sheer pleasure of it.
The future of SUVs - Graham
I'm giving up with this site now. Thanks to all of you who have helped with good advice and even a chat over the time I've been here. I think the threads have all run thier course(s) now.

At the end of the day there are too many smug gits whose only opionion that they're interested in is there own.

One of my cars is a 20 yr old Land Rover, another is a 30yr old Land Rover. They may are not as economical as many small (large!) cars but think about this Mr Smug Git. How many cars will have you used during that time and how much of the worlds resources have been used making them?

Ban them? Why not ban all sports cars? any with less than four FULLY occupied seats? all holidays that are not taken in your own garden. Oh now that's a tricky one because most accidents, statistically happen at home! Ban families and friends (if you have any) - most rape victims are assaulted by people they know.
Ban everything eccept sensible polyester clothes and sensible shoes.
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
Even better, limit all couples to one child.
The future of SUVs - No Do$h
Graham, it would be better if you could stick around.

The site thrives on the smug gits getting a contrary opinion from time to time. Many contributors, yourself included, can see the balance to most arguments and point out the contradictions and dichotomies in nearly every discussion. That was where my point came from. Many try in a hundred different ways to do the right thing, but ultimately we all have our weaknesses and do things others disagree with. Makes this planet an interesting place to be. Not for me the visions of Metropolis or 1984 (although Brazil has some amusing moments, particularly those involving the Tiger T500) that so many seem so keen to portray.

Personally, I err on the side of SUVs having some inherent dangers (and I've driven a few) but ultimately it is the choice of the consumer to drive them. Some debate would be healthy, but this ceased to be a debate and just became a series of posts offering entirely contradictory views.

SUVs. Take 'em or leave 'em. Everyone has the choice.

Hope to continue seeing you around.

ND.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
[snip]

It amazes me that when people come to the end of there argument they feel it neccesary to descend to insults (I thought these post were filtered?).

- it seems that they are (glass houses, stones, throw). M.

People always seem keen on their \"rights\" but never their \"responsibilities\".
The future of SUVs - Maz
Trying to find a middle ground, perhaps most would agree that...

1/ The trouble is not SUVs or 4x4s in themselves, just in the second most densely populated country in the world.
2/ An additional licence should be required in the UK
3/ Better built, longer lasting SUVs are not as environmentally damaging.
4/ Bull bars have nothing to do with male cows and should be named after male chickens.
The future of SUVs - Dave_TD
Rooster bars???
The future of SUVs - HF
You beat me, I was just typing the exact same thing.
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
If anybody wishes to query and/or comment upon moderating policy then they should feel free to e-mail mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk

Within the backroom is not the right place.

Mark.
The future of SUVs - Maz
HF, DTD.

I have to say not eggs-actly what I meant!

Maybe see you on the silly thread later.
The future of SUVs - Steve S
Electro Man,

"People always seem keen on their "rights" but never their "responsibilities"."

No. People are quite rightly concerned when others seek to impose their own ideas of what "responsibilities" constitute on everyone else.

Anyway this thread is becoming tedious, I agree with Graham.

Your diatribe against SUV vehicles that you percieve as irresponsible to own is based on the additional weight and reduced handling and stopping. Well as I've already stated above given the amount of vans, lorries & buses this is a bit like worrying about snowflakes while ignoring an avalanche.
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
ok, ok, I feel like I'm arguing with everybody in the back room! :-)

Its like trying to stop the tide with a tea bag - it keeps on coming.

One last thing that I can't resist - vans, buses, and lorries have a purpose and are needed - SUVs for most people aren't.
The future of SUVs - Morris Ox
Ludicrous, utterly ludicrous. EVERYTHING has some kind of purpose, but that purpose may not be practical or utilitarian, it may be indulgent or pleasurable. It still serves a purpose!
The future of SUVs - Electro Man
good grief, I thought that would be it.

We are obviously at cross purposes over our definition of purpose. I am defining purpose as required for a particular task where there is no alternative

If you are hauling large items around or a lot of small items then it makes economic sense to use a large vehicle - if you are taking your kids to school it makes sense to use something less excessive. Horses for course!
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
By your own definition of "purpose" I suspect you don't need a car at all. However, you choose to have one since it improves your life one way or another - either by making something enjoyable or by making it possible.

Why should you have anything to say about my own, and similar, choices ?

And it might make sense to you, but what is the relevance to that as to whether or not it makes sense to me or anyone else?

The future of SUVs - StuW
I can't say i particulary like 4x4's but i would quite like to drive one to see what there like. I wouldn't own due to fact i think they simply to expensive to run (i reckon tyres would be pretty expensive!) but if other people want to spend there hard earned cash on them its their choice its why we live in a free country! Personally i don't have a problem with them but i do feel they are a little pointless but like i said its the person own choice, the only problem i have is when some people in 4x4s or any other vehicle (especially larger ones like trucks vans etc) use their vehicles size to intimidate other road uses to drive faster when your already doing the speed limit or using the vehicles size to push into gaps etc or cut you up, because they know that they would come better in the event of a crash and assume you will get out of there way.
The future of SUVs - Mark (RLBS)
Firstly they are horribly expensive to run.

Secondly you put your finger on the point - it is not the vehicle, it is how it is driven. And the fact is that a huge proportion of the SUVs on the road are driven ridiculously badly.

They are bad around corners, they do take longer to stop, and they are more subject to rolling than other vehicles.

one of the worst things you see is on slippry surfaces - all that a SUV will do is go forward better than other vehciles, if anythign their stopping and turning is worse than an ordinary car.

I would think it quite appropriate that there should be additional testing required, in the same way that there is now, I believe, additional testing for people wishing to tow caravans.
The future of SUVs - nick
All true, Mark, but we love 'em just the same, they're just great fun to drive! Same way as I love driving my Rover 3500S, probably slower and certainly thirstier than a modern performance car but it feels (and sounds) brilliant.
The future of SUVs - Nortones2
I suspect that one of the purposes of the urban SUV is to intimidate (present company excepted) suburbanites, including other mums. Get out of my way or else!. Doubtless users will say this is not so, with various special reasons why they particularly should be allowed to potentially crush others underfoot. The point is, unless you have a functional reason, there is a risk of SOME of the many SUV drivers using their vehicles to compensate a lack.
The future of SUVs - Steve S
No. People should be allowed to drive whatever they like - it's called freedom.

Bad drivers are just that - it doesn't matter what the vehicle is.

I have an SUV, which I use for certain applications but most of the time I choose to use a car because I consider the type of journeys I do are more suited to a cars handling and fuel efficiency. That's my choice. I wouldn't seek to impose my view on others.

If you're worried about heavy vehicles in accidents think continental lorries, think dodgy hauliers, think white van man. All of which can and do cause far more accidents. (With respect to all good HGV & van drivers.
The future of SUVs - No Do$h
Just to show the weakness in the "ban SUV" argument; Anyone noticed how the majority of vehicles abandoned after a crash and festooned with "police aware" labels are older hatchbacks? Typically 8-12 year old fiestas, metros and novas.

So lets ban 'em.

"Ah" you cry. But that's all my dear old mum can afford to drive. Or perhaps its the only car my daughter can afford to insure.

Well tough. They are involved in lots of crashes so they have to go.

I am, of course, talking tongue in cheek. It's horses for courses. You drive what you want within your means. Why should someone be forbidden from driving an SUV any more than they should be denied access to a Lotus Elise or a Citreon AX? I think there may be an argument for lowering the weight limit before a more specialised licence is required, although only to take into account the truly behemoth out there.

Just an aside. I honestly can't remember the last time I actually saw a dented SUV around here.
The future of SUVs - THe Growler
I am driving my SUV. You are driving your Smallmobile. We espy each other amid the traffic, and each of us evaluates an identical scenario from different perspectives. I am thinking defensive: size gives me protection. You are thinking offensive: he's out to get me.

Reality is not a universal fixed point construct. Perception is all there is, leavened perhaps with a slight shot of paranoia on both our sides.


 

Value my car