Audi build quality - Graham567

I read reviews of Audi cars in various places including 'What Car' and they always go on about the build quality of the interiors of Audi's. What i cannot understand is that if the interior is beautifully built,with quality materials, then why arn't Audi's at the top of the reliability surveys? Surely the quality materials are throughout the whole car. Audi should be number one with their outstanding build quality and yet companies like Ford,who are criticised for their build quality,can go on working for many years without fuss.

Backroom opinions welcome.

Audi build quality - RT

Quality, particularly materials, and reliablity aren't the same thing.

Cars with more equipment, facilities, etc have more chances to go wrong.

People paying a premium price for a car have higher expectations.

Audi build quality - bazza

People paying a premium price for a car have higher expectations......

I think that is very true and might partly explain why Skodas tend to do much better than the equivalent VW or Audi in the surveys. They are virtually identical under the skin, using the same platforms, electrics and mechanicals--unless of course the assembly, age of the manufacturing lines and training of the workforce itself has something to do with product variability.

And as above, the more infested the car is with the latest electronic gizmos, the higher probability of a glitch or failure causing the premium purchaser to be disappointed. If you take a look at the Golf 7 forums, much of the noise there is due to "Infotainment " problems, rather than outright mechanical failures.

Audi build quality - NARU

Different priorities for different people.

The development pace on Toyota Landcruisers is painfully slow. My 2007 model is essentially just a development on the 1990s model. And the current one is not that dramatically different to mine.

In the same timescales, Landrover's discovery has become faster, handles better on the road, etc.

But by developing at a slower place, Toyota keep reliability high.

Which approach is best? Depends what you want out of the vehicle.

Audi build quality - gordonbennet

Different priorities for different people.

The development pace on Toyota Landcruisers is painfully slow. My 2007 model is essentially just a development on the 1990s model. And the current one is not that dramatically different to mine.

In the same timescales, Landrover's discovery has become faster, handles better on the road, etc.

But by developing at a slower place, Toyota keep reliability high.

Which approach is best? Depends what you want out of the vehicle.

Or as some of us might say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Toyota are very conservative with their industrial side, including Hino truck division which is similar to the Landcruiser scene, and as far as i'm concerned all the better for it.

They lost sight of the ball with things like the MMT transmission among a few other things, i hope they get back on track with the cars...ditching that pointless electric parking brake on the next Avensis would be a good start...hows about it Toyota?

Audi build quality - Wukl

Audi appear to major on showroom appeal and percieved quality. I guess for their target market - people who buy new and change after three years or fleet buyers - it's an ideal business model. After that, they aren't really interested. But despite the bad reports people just seem to keep going back to them; that's the power of Top Trumps peer pressure and a ridiculously blinkered and superficial mainstream motoring press. Thank goodness for the (ahem, award winning) HJ site!

Audi build quality - craig-pd130

This old question to HJ from the Telegraph typifies the badge snobbery amongst uninformed owners: www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/...l

But build quality is all relative. Back in the late 80s / early 90s, Mercedes Benz cars were regarded as the paragon of build quality, and the factory was still at the height of its pre-unification, engineering-led powers.

But I remember an article from Car Magazine in which an MB engineer described how they'd bought an original Lexus LS400 when they were launched, and dismantled it to see how it was made and if Mercedes should be worried about the new Japanese competitor.

The engineer told the Car journalist that they were horrified by the quality of components, materials and castings etc in the Lexus. He said it was FAR superior to anything used by MB at the time.

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Audi appears to spend more money (as a proportion of the build costs of their cars) on the interior trim and external panel quality and fit and finish than on the engineering quality of their cars oily bits, electrics and electronics/computerised parts than, say, their Japanese (and to a lesser extent, Korean) counterparts.

Don't confuse the two. A good example (from HJ himself) was VAG's (and many other European manufacturers) use of suspension springs that weren't smoothed out at each end (their Japanese counterparts were), which led to a greater number of failures, all for the sake of saving the odd £ here or there during the build process.

The same goes for them aparrently scimping on the engineering quality of parts associated with their chain-cams (again, leading to a large number of failures and/or costly replacements/modifications to avoid even larger numbers of failures and negative publicity), something almost (if not completely) unheard of with Japanese cars.

I like some VAG cars (including some Audis, SEATs and VWs), but at present just cannot buy any whilst such problems keep arising - I prefer the reliability of Japanese cars and accept that I won't be getting the plush/really stylish interiors of Audis etc, but 'acceptable' ones that do the job nicely and last just as long as their German counterparts (interiors) - the rest of the car should outlast their EU counterparts too.

Audi build quality - FoxyJukebox

When an Audi goes wrong, it REALLY goes wrong.

Audi build quality - madf

When an Audi goes wrong, it REALLY goes wrong.

A guy on teh Subaru Forester forum sold his Forester STI (a Japanese souped up XT) and bought an Audi S4 used with FASH.. He was horrified by the procession of very expensive faults which he was totally unused to.

Brakes, suspension, cam chains etc.

He went back to Subaru - more reliable..

VAG history on engine issues - coils, FSI cam chains etc - is reminscent of BL at its worst..

Audi build quality - slkfanboy

>I think that is very true and might partly explain why Skodas tend to do much better than the equivalent VW or Audi in the surveys.

This is one reason I don’t like jd power surveys as they are written by consumers. Generally people only post if they love a car(Fanboy) or had some major issue with the product. I always read the reviews on Amazon and see loads of 5* and some 1* and often the one star was given because some rather odd issue and in which case I am happy to purchase regardless.

I do like car warranties direct survey as this is compiled purely on the number and cost of faults adjusted for warranty length.

This show Skoda mid table while Seat & VW are nearer the bottom. So Skoda are clearly doing something the others are not.

Audi build quality - RT

I agree with your dislike of JD Power as it measures against expectation but doesn't measure the expectation itself.

The drawback of Warranty Direct is they include brands with short warranties - so include the 2nd to 6th years which are relatively reliable but for Kia are simply invisible to Warranty Direct as they're still covered by original warranty - and their cost evaluation should relate to the original list price as you'd expect a £40,000 car to cost twice as much in repairs as a £20,000 one.

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Also with after-market warranties, they don't take into account the amount of manufacturer warranty repairs/replacements (including recalls after the original warranty expired but were deemed sufficiently serious enough to warrant [pardon the pun] a recall) have been carried out before the after-market warranty has started - effectievely meaning several parts are either brand new or nearly new, giving them (in theory) an advantage over other manufacturers that have more reliable cars (and that aren't subject to multiple recalls) whereby some components just wear out through age/usage after their warranty period.

Such factors, and, as you say, the length and items covered in warranties, mileage and the condition of the car at the start of the cover (e.g. has it a FSH as per the manufacturer's requirements, etc) are, I believe, not allowed for in the calculations for (for example) Warranty Direct's 'Reliability Index', mearly (as I understand them to use) raw claims via them over the period of the insurance cover. I also presume that the cost of cover is also not factored in as well, nor the number of people taking out the insurance (I wonder what constitutes a 'representative sample', especially for cars/makes that are rare or whom few people take out after-market warranties.

I personally can't believe that that many people use such a service across all makes/cars/areas to be able to do so across the board. Some cars (some of whom have been out of production for a reasonable amount of time and sold in reasonable numbers) don't even feature on the 'Reliability Index', at all!

Such 'surveys' to me are only a very rough guide and no more, as often (as has been said) many other factors not taken into account can easily (and probably do) distort the result to a reasonable, if not greater degree. I actually wrote to WD to ask about this and why (if such things weren't factor in) they did not state that the results were only a rough guide for these reasons, and they declined to say why.

I also agree with comments about general ratings of cars by owners, as people who are either very satisfied or unsatisfied (biased towards the latter, especially for those people with company cars who have little or only a limited choice), and, again does not take into account the age of the buyer, length of time they expect to keep the car and expectations (people who keep them longer tend to buy for reliability, practicality, comfort and customer service and care less about performance, handling and looks/gizmos than short-term owners).

Audi build quality - slkfanboy

I agree and as I stated warranty direct don't cover the period of manufacures warranty.

I don't see this as a great issue at the end of the day it's a cost the owner does not have to bare, so add to the days off the road only.

Audi build quality - alanemids

I had an Audi many years ago. Build was second to none. Then about 15 years ago became a Mercedes man.

Recently decide to change our C class 320 sport which I've had for a few years. So me and my wife went looking for another car.

We liked the looks of the Q5 but never been in one.

Audi showroom - sat in A4, A6, as top specs though great and build quilty was superior to my C class and my dads S Class. However, sat inside the Q5 S line, build A1 but very dated inside and gadgets. So put depsot down on GLE/Suv many weeks ago.

The Mecedes have never let me down as yet, but nor did the Audi years ago.

Audi build quality - daveyK_UK

I find lexus to be the best quality, but there range is not very big.

Its a shame they dont offer an estate car

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Please don't confuse the quality of the fit and finish of the interior (seats, carpet/ceiling, dash and fittings) and exterior panels/lights with engineering build quality (which you cannot see). You are likely to have been one of the 'lucky ones' who haven't experienced any problems, a much smaller group than your Japanese-car-owning counterparts. Other people's experiences unfortunately (many detailed on this website) bear this out.

Audi build quality - Steveieb

Having driven various cars over the last 50 years and been responsible for a large fleet, I now own a humble A4 circa 2003 and I am so impressed with the build quality. It is the first car I have owned which has no squeaks and rattles inside the cabin.

My last Golf Mk 6 had a really irritating dashboard rattle which the main dealer simply couldnt fix even after removing the whole dash and mounting it on rubber bushes.

Silence is golden !

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Your Audi is no different in that regard to my 2006 Mazda3 mk1, but as I said before, interior build quality isn't an indicator of engineering quality. Maybe Audis (and VAG cars more generally) were better (in terms of overall [including engineering] build quality) back then overall than they are today, but maybe not - the evidence of one owner doesn't mean that's the case across the board - that's what all the reviews here and elsewhere are for.

One person I know sold their A3 mk2 because it had loads of problems and bought a Hyundai i30 (same age) instead, which has since been far more reliable. Does that mean anything significant? Probably not on its own, but taken in the round, a pattern of below-par VAG engineering quality, at least since 2005, appears to be developing.

I remember VAG themselves saying when the Golf mk6 came out that they redesigned it to 'save money'. It appears to me that they did so in the wrong areas - made them look nice, but scrimped on the oily and electrical bits compared to their Far Eastern rivals, who build 'acceptable' interiors build-quality-wise, but save money by not making their cars' interiors really plush for the same overall cost. That seems to be paying off in the main.

Audi build quality - Big John

VAG cars do get a bit of a bashing - sometimes deserved but I personally have had great reliability out of my recent VAG cars covering over 600k miles in the ownership of Mr & Mrs Big John

VAG list :-1984 VW Polo 1.0, 1990 Passat 1.6td, 2001 Skoda Octavia 1.4, 2003 Skoda Superb 1.9pd, 2104 Skoda Superb 1.4 tsi

Very regular servicing may have something to do with this though - never extended intervals


Edited by Big John on 25/03/2016 at 13:04

Audi build quality - RT
Very regular servicing may have something to do with this though - never extended intervals


Isn't that true of all cars? My Astra had a 20,000 mile oil change interval - I changed it every 6,000 miles - at 100,000 it was still running sweeter than new

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Yep - following HJ's sage advice and keep your car well oiled = less problems and a longer life for the car's engine. On the other side of the coin, long service intervals and chain cam engines don't mix, for example. That leads to engine failures and huge repair bills. VAG have only recently started to realise this. All for saving £30-50 every other year on oil changes.

i build quality - FoxyJukebox

Quite right...I recall somebody saying they were thinking of buying a year old Audi with 15,000 on the clock and asked if the car would be serviced before delivery. The salesman said it would be subjected to a special 100 point check( ha ha ha!?) ...Did that include an oil change? "no" came the reply, because the car is on long life service intervals and an oil change is not due.

i build quality - gordonbennet

If VAG have only just realised the problems associated with cam chains or other important components made of cheese, and lack of good lubrication helping early failure along, then there needs to be a serious culling of ineffective staff.

More likely their marketing staff might have finally realised that the motoring public in places like this have seen the light and the game's up (you'd think in the age of t'internet this would have been forseen), what will be interesting is to see how they manage the fall out, will they go down their usual denial route or do the right thing, huge goodwill operation and long extended warranties put in place for known issues.

i build quality - Engineer Andy

I wonder, given the likely huge fine and lawsuits in the US and possibly elsewhere (to a lesser extent), VAG may not have the funds to be able to keep up with the opposition in terms of R&D, and may have to consider reducing their ranges and substantial options list considerably to reduce costs.

It seems to have worked for Mazda after their 'divorce' from Ford a few years ago, for example, on the current Mazda3, you get the choice of 'any trim/colour as long as its black cloth' on every model except the Sport Nav, which you get the option of black or two-tone leather seats (at extra cost). I haven't seen the number of variants on the A3, but on the Golf there are 16. I personally would like a bit more choice for the Mazda (say 3 no-cost options in the range generally plus the two leather options on the Sport), but 16? C'mon guys!

It would also be nice if more VW, Audi and SEAT dealerships (and the UK arms of the makes themselves) earned themselves a better customer service reputation (admitedly Mazda can be variable on that score, although still better than those three, and besides, if [apart from some diesels] most contact is limited to dropping off/picking up your keys and paying for the annual service [all ok], then its not so bad!), then people and governments might warm up to them again if they thought they were taking the reliability/dieselgate issues seriously in both the short and longer term.

Maybe they could learn from their stablemate Skoda (as well as the Japanese makes) about how to improve their reputation in that regard - they appear to do far better in customer satisfaction surveys as regards the dealership/after sales experience. That's why, despite some recent big faux-pas, Toyota still rank very highly in that regard with the public.

i build quality - corax

In the eighties Audi had some great technological advances. They were one of the first to fully galvanise their body shells. That made a real difference at a time when you would see cars with virtually everything below the bumpers rusting to bits.

The quattro system was a very slick piece of engineering, simplifying the layout by keeping the transfer box in the gearbox.

And they made big advances with aerodynamics. The Audi 100 was amazingly economical for such a big car at the time.

Other manufacturers have caught up now, and Audi these days look very ordinary, if you look past the slick (and boring to me) looks and flashy drls.

Part of the blame has to be aimed at the ever tightening emissions regulations, which mean that VAG have had to develop cleaner burning engines quickly, which means that they are at the limit of new technology. Look at how many problems have affected diesels over the past few years, and VAG are not the only guilty party, many manufacturers including Japanese have been affected by these problems.

But I can't see there being any excuse for snapping timing chains, surely this is fundamental engineering that should have been known years ago. Who the hell designs this stuff?

i build quality - Engineer Andy

I think some Japanese car firms, including Mazda, were caught on the hop as regards emissions and the rise of diesel engines in cars, and perhaps decided (rather foolishly) to just 'buy in' engines from other makes, possibly without any real in depth inspection/review of the engineering involved to see if they met their own quality standards.

If Mazda hadn't bought in the PSA/Ford diesels, then (w***el engine reliability issues asside [more to do with idiots using RX8s on mainly short trips to the shops against the advice of the manufacturer than actual unreliability]), then they would be at or even above the reliability level of Honda, Lexus and Toyota. I'm hoping they've now learned there lesson on that score and revert back to making mainly efficient petrol engined cars and a smaller number of diesels.

With regards to Audi, and more widely VAG as a whole, I agree that they lost their way when they went (in my opinion) for 'style over substance' and cut corners (and possibly cheated) in their cars' engineering to save on costs and to meet emissions targets whilst maintaining their 'premium feel' to the consumer. The same could be said (though not for the dieselgate cheating) for Mercedes, which had very similar reliability issues following their well-documented cost-cutting measures in the late 90s - mid 2000s, which seriously dented their reputation, probably only saved by the on-track reputation of their motor racing engines and car ownership relationships with many celebrities during that period and beyond.

Most people still have respect for Mercedes, but with Audis (and to an extent BMWs) many people think less of them than they used to, because they are seen by many as 'cars for snobs and show-offs' (even if that's not the case in reality), hence why drivers of those cars aren't exactly held in high regard on the road (not driving ability, just generally). I think Audi and VW have an image problem, exacerbated by the 'dieselgate' scandal. SEAT and Skoda will be less affected in this way (though will be by any financial penalties/lawsuits to the group in general).

i build quality - Steveieb

If only the engineering side of Audi could match their marketing division which has constantly hit the spot with consumers by providing cars to stars.

When the public see the subliminal message of Kate Middleton, Diana Spencer, Prince Charles and Film and TV celebrities driving Audis, it sends a message to them that they are buying into an exclusive club.

And it costs Audi very little, so its got to be a stroke of genius on their marketing departments part. Even Anne Robinson has one !

i build quality - galileo

If only the engineering side of Audi could match their marketing division which has constantly hit the spot with consumers by providing cars to stars.

When the public see the subliminal message of Kate Middleton, Diana Spencer, Prince Charles and Film and TV celebrities driving Audis, it sends a message to them that they are buying into an exclusive club.

And it costs Audi very little, so its got to be a stroke of genius on their marketing departments part. Even Anne Robinson has one !

What most celebrities know about motor vehicle engineering could be written on the back of a second class stamp.

Celebrity endorsement of a particular car is the last thing that would influence me to choose it.

i build quality - gordonbennet
Celebrity endorsement of a particular car is the last thing that would influence me to choose it.

Couldn't agree more, and as for Top Gear and its like, i sincerely hope no one ever took a blind bit of notice of anything endorsed there, buy a car recommended by that mob?, i'd rather line me Y fronts with nettles.

i build quality - corax
Celebrity endorsement of a particular car is the last thing that would influence me to choose it.

Couldn't agree more, and as for Top Gear and its like, i sincerely hope no one ever took a blind bit of notice of anything endorsed there, buy a car recommended by that mob?, i'd rather line me Y fronts with nettles.

I'll be watching the first episode of the new Top Gear just out of curiosity, but Chris Evans has got one of those faces I want to punch as soon as I see it.

i build quality - John F

They were one of the first to fully galvanise their body shells.

The quattro system was a very slick piece of engineering, simplifying the layout by keeping the transfer box in the gearbox.

And they made big advances with aerodynamics. The Audi 100 was amazingly economical for such a big car at the time.

But I can't see there being any excuse for snapping timing chains....

Quite so. But of all the old VW/Audi chain engines there now are in the world I do wonder how many of them have actually snapped? I know there have been problems with plastic guides/tensioners in a few V8s, possibly owing to oil neglect? I can find no instances of their flagship W12 chain failure and this engine has been around since the turn of the century.

Audi build quality - Engineer Andy

Have a look at the 'good and bad' sections on HJ's reviews of many VAG car (especially Audis and VWs - the 1.4 twin charger is one that has such problems, but I think many others have as well).

Edited by Engineer Andy on 27/03/2016 at 11:11