All - The death of Indicators - Ethan Edwards

This weekend...the weekend drivers were out in force. Very noticeable that Indication is now firmly dead.

"Mirror Signal Maneouvre" is no more. "Lunge in, thrust out , gesticulate" must have replaced it when I wasn't looking.

I really miss seeing civilised behaviour. I still indicate, smile, let people out where possible etc because thats the way I was taught. Mostly you do get a cheery wave and thats a good feeling dammit.

I do wonder what the instructors of today are teaching the newbe's.

All - The death of Indicators - FP

"Very noticeable that Indication is now firmly dead."

We've touched on this elsewhere, in a different thread.

Many posters there seemed to be of the view that you signal only when necessary. Clearly a lot (most?) of drivers think it's hardly ever necessary - or rather, they don't even think about it.

I stick to my view that if people always signalled (cutting out the bit about having to make a decision about whether it is "necessary") things would work a lot better on the roads. As it is, people don't actually weigh up whether signalling is necessary - they just don't bother.

Signalling "only when necessary" has become an excuse for not signalling at all.

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

I had a letter published in the IAM magazine in which I supported a previous letter questioning the 'only when necessary' mantra.

My argument was that if you always signal you will never fail to give necessary information. It is also obvious that no harm can be done whereas failing to indicate may result in disaster.

The result of the current way is the signficant number of motorists who fail to give signals when they are needed. This results in, at least, irritated drivers.

All - The death of Indicators - hillman

If one follows the practice of only signalling when [one feels that it is] necessary one gets lazy habits and sometimes forget to signal at all when it definitely is necessary.

All - The death of Indicators - brum

Whether some modern indicators are actually noticeable is another question.

Exhibit 1, this morning, new shiny large white Jeep boxy thing. Forward facing bright white string of stars led drl's, one side turns off and then limply flashes on and off with not as bright pale slightly yellow colour. As it approached and I was located on offside pavement it became less an less visible obviously cheap directional leds.....

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

Sometimes indicating can be misleading and therfore result in accidents. If you can remember to change gear or brake when necessary you should be able to remember to indicate only when necessary too. IMO indicating every time is robotic, and in a way lazy, and a sign of incompetence.

All - The death of Indicators - FP

"If you can remember to change gear or brake when necessary you should be able to remember to indicate only when necessary too. IMO indicating every time is robotic, and in a way lazy, and a sign of incompetence."

I think this misinterprets the mental processes involved in driving. We do not "remember" to change gear or brake - those actions are not conscious decisions in themselves, but the automatic results of decisions to accelerate, slow down or whatever.

Indicating every time does have a robotic element to it; the conscious decision is made to turn or perform some other manouvre and the signalling is part and parcel of it. Nearly all the time this leads to no problems at all.

You have to come up with some pretty unusual scenarios to show a particular signal would be misleading, but in those (unusual) cases one would hope that most of the driver's automatic actions (not just signalling) would be suspended, if the situation was so weird.

Whatever the merits of the "signal-only-when necessary" argument, the fact remains that an awful lot of drivers do not signal when they should and thereby cause a lot of frustration. It seems to me they're the ones that are driving robotically, or are just plain lazy.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

Perhaps never indicating is better than indicating every the time. A friend of a friend was killed by someone leaving their indicator on when it wasn't necessary. That has stayed with me ever since.

For some indicating is as automatic as braking or changing gear. It shouldn't be, if drivers think about their actions and the consequences of indicating, or not doing so. TBH, if people can't tell when they should or shouldn't indicate, perhaps it would be best for them to use public transport.

All - The death of Indicators - Andrew-T

I don't agree that every single movement needs to be prefaced by an indication. Indications are to reduce doubt in the minds of other road users - where there can be no doubt, there is no need to indicate. Most drivers signal right when joining at a slip road - why? There is no possible doubt about their intention, so it either means 'let me in' or it just makes their presence more noticeable. But if the indication is not cancelled, (as has been said above) it can become a nuisance or worse.

And as one is advised to drive in the left lane except when overtaking, there may be little need to indicate when moving in either.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

Actually, braking and changing gear should be, and if you are competent, both be conscious decisions. I supsect many people are invariably in the incorrect gear. Therefore for some the process is not an automatic result of decisions to accelerate, slow down or whatever. I was a passenger in a car this morning. The driver was certainly in the wrong gear some of the time. When he ceased day dreaming he remedied his mistake.

Sorry, Andrew T this wasn't meant to be a reply to your post, but FP''s. BTW, AT I agree with your post.

Edited by Trilogy on 29/04/2015 at 15:30

All - The death of Indicators - alan1302

Whether some modern indicators are actually noticeable is another question.

Exhibit 1, this morning, new shiny large white Jeep boxy thing. Forward facing bright white string of stars led drl's, one side turns off and then limply flashes on and off with not as bright pale slightly yellow colour. As it approached and I was located on offside pavement it became less an less visible obviously cheap directional leds.....

I've seen a few cars with indicators like that recently.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

I had a letter published in the IAM magazine in which I supported a previous letter questioning the 'only when necessary' mantra.

My argument was that if you always signal you will never fail to give necessary information. It is also obvious that no harm can be done whereas failing to indicate may result in disaster.

The result of the current way is the signficant number of motorists who fail to give signals when they are needed. This results in, at least, irritated drivers.

Always indicating can and does cause accidents. If you've taken the IAM test you'll know why.

All - The death of Indicators - Bromptonaut

Always indicating can and does cause accidents. If you've taken the IAM test you'll know why.

What sort of always indicating? Issigonis Minis were notorious for 'wrong' inidication. Combination of slightly undersensitive self cancel mechanism with an indicator pilot light 60 degrees off the driver's sightline and cabin noise that overwhelmed the tic-tic-tic of the indicator relay.

Today's cars are better but not impossible to leave the winker on.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

Citroens used to have non'cancelling indicators. You're a Citroen man so I think you'll know which I mean. Perfect..................they made drivers think.

All - The death of Indicators - Bromptonaut

Citroens used to have non'cancelling indicators. You're a Citroen man so I think you'll know which I mean. Perfect..................they made drivers think.

I know the cits you mean though by my time (Mk2 BX was my first) they'd gone conventional. I did though run a Pug 205 from 1996 to 2000 with a failed self cancel mechanism. Twigged it on the test drive and never had a moment's problem subsequently.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif
Not indicating is lazy and thoughtless, and potentially dangerous.

Indicating all the time, including when not needed, can be indicative of laziness and lack of awareness. It is no substitute for being awake, and aware of other road users.

Your arguments are specious, you conflate not signalling with signalling when needed. To be honest I find your remarks offensive, the way you imply that signalling only when needed is equivalent to not thinking. You make too many vague sweeping statements.

Driving standards would be better if people drove better (doh!) which includes keeping your distance, appropriate speed, indicating when needed etc.
All - The death of Indicators - FP

"...I find your remarks offensive..."

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is I apologise for offending a respected member of the forum. Possibly I did not explain myself properly.

I did not intend to conflate not signalling with signalling only when necessary. I wanted to say that the latter led to the former in the driving habits of some people.

It seems to me the "signal only when necessary" position is fine as long as it is the result of a high level of concentration.

My point was that many drivers seem to think they're doing it, or were taught to do it, but in fact they seldom if ever signal at all. They are the lazy, unobservant drivers.

I stick to my point, though, that if you're unable to maintain a very high level of concentration (and most drivers won't), it's better to signal always and automatically than never signal at all.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif

Hello FP, sorry that remark of mine was over the top. I think we would all agree that it is better to signal too much than never at all.

All - The death of Indicators - Smileyman

The indicator is to communicate intent to move, it is not an instruction to other road users to make way so you can move ... makes me think of the video recently discussed on this forum, the car towing caravan driver indicating left and moving into road space already occupied by a van driver ... the result was a collision and blocked road. Read the first part of my post ... you know where I stand on this matter. Mirror Signal Maneouvre - Maneouvre is 3rd and requires understanding of what is seen in the mirror

Edited by Smileyman on 27/04/2015 at 22:17

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

I am at a loss to understand why indicating can cause an accident. If you are trying to say that indicating on every occasion that it would be necessary, if there was a car that would be affected, leads inevitably to mindless driving then I disagree.

The letters in the magazine supporting always signalling did not receive a single response to disagree. Of course, doing my IAM drives and test I followed the established procedure.

Please give an example of when giving a correct signal could cause an accident. Please note I am not asking for details of any misleading signals such as indicating left before a turn when you intend to pull in after the turn, or not cancelling a signal. They are misuse of signals. There are numerous examples of failing to signal causing accidents.

The 2013 edition of Roadcraft states, 'If in doubt, it's better to signal than not signal'

I am asking the question from a point of genuine interest. If I am wrong then I would like to learn why so I can improve.

All - The death of Indicators - Bilboman

Some random thoughts about indicators:
1. With directional foglights/"turning lights" now becoming common, we do at least get an inkling that a car is turning, so in a sense they may come to replace indicators. Although, of course, it may be a momentary change of direction or "false alarm". Why a Seat/Skoda/VW/Audi going round a roundabout has to shine one foglight then the other then both off - in broad daylight - remains a mystery.
2. Having the indicator on the left hand stalk in a RHD car - this has been common practice for around 30-40 years now - seems to make the process of indicating just too much hassle for certain drivers, especially those with manual gearboxes. There seems to be an underlying determination to keep the left hand "free" to grip the gear knob in case of sudden gear changing or the phone in case of that all-important phone call. Living abroad and driving on the right in a LHD car I much prefer having the indicator on the left and on my trips to the UK when I hire a car I find the opposite set-up (ie indicator stalk on the SAME side as the gear lever) strangely awkward.
3. The fairly common set-up of "programmed" indicators, whereby a quick flick sets off three flashes and a self-cancel is a brilliant idea, but my car doesn't have it. Having to hold the indicator for a few seconds to make sure another driver has seen my signal (three flashes just in case he didn't see the first two...) - or else turning them fully on then fully off is a pain and that probably explains why some drivers are non-indicators.
4. The self-cancel often kicks in too early and I often find myself re-activating the indicators. It's now second nature to know when this will happen and I always react right on time. And I don't think I'm alone in this!
5. How long before voice-controlled indicators become common? A new feature for Siri, maybe?

Edited by Bilboman on 28/04/2015 at 02:05

All - The death of Indicators - Andrew-T

How long before voice-controlled indicators become common? A new feature for Siri, maybe?

I was thinking a little further ahead. The driver only has to think 'I'm about to turn left' to activate the indicator. But I suppose if that develops, the thought can easily be transmitted to drivers behind (or the driverless car behind).

We haven't discussed the obverse of signalling - the assumption that no signal means 'I intend to continue ahead' which obviously applies in normal driving. Unfortunately that can't be assumed when approaching a major intersection, when drivers can't be relied upon to signal if they are turning. That's why people object when rigid lane discipline is forgotten on roundabouts.

All - The death of Indicators - skidpan

Why a Seat/Skoda/VW/Audi going round a roundabout has to shine one foglight then the other then both off - in broad daylight - remains a mystery

My Seat Leon has cornering foglights and this is my obseravtion.

They do not operate unless the headlights are turned on.

They only operate at relatively low speeds.

Thus I cannot understand why you are seeing them in broad daylight unless of course the driver has his headlights on and is travelling at walking pace.

All - The death of Indicators - davecooper
Always indicate, always will, even when turning into my driveway. Why, why not? I don't even think about it, it is pretty much automatic, 40 years of indicating have seen to that. I never indicate incorrectly, I am going where I say I am going. The only time I would not indicate is where there could be confusion as to what I was going to do.
The way I look at it is that I will attempt to tell other drivers what I am going to do, it is up to them if they believe me or not.
All - The death of Indicators - scot22

I wonder why this only signal if.... was ever introduced. Did someone sitting in an office think it would make everyone concentrate more on their driving ? If so, I don't think it worked.

There seems to be the assumption that nobody will ever miss anything that should have been noticed, or a situation might not change in seconds. Percentage wise ( although there are no statistics ) I am convinced that the safer strategy is always to signal ; providing, as has been often stated, it is not misleading. In which case it is incorrect signalling.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif

Programmed indicators are in my view a menace. When you want to turn left, and there are cars behind, you indicate a bit in in advance, to give them warning that you will be slowing and turning.It lets them position their car appropriately ahead of time. The problem with these programmed indicators is (unless I am mistaken, could be) that they are designed for the kind of driver who does not start indicating until they start the manouevre e.g. turning, at which point there is not that much point, it's obvious what you are doing. I could rant about that, drivers who only indicate after they start turning, fnnnarrr ...

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

Is anyone going to provide an example of automatic indicating being a dangerous practice ?

All - The death of Indicators - Leif
You need to direct that question to the other poster.

I wasgoingto say somthing but ths web siteis unusable.
All - The death of Indicators - Hamsafar

I have started to set off onto roundabouts in front of people and then beep at those who don't signal.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

Yes Scot, later. Still can't believe no one has yet realised when it is dangerous and misleading!

Edited by Trilogy on 29/04/2015 at 15:33

All - The death of Indicators - Leif

I know one example, approach a junction with a left turn which you intend to take, and a small side road on the left just before. If you indicate left, someone might pull out from the side road into your path.

Another case is when a nutter is on your tail while you overtake. Indicating left, before you pull in, means nutter might accelerate and move even closer to you. Best not to indicate and just move left when safe. (Nutter might take this as an invite to undertake, so you can't win really.)

All - The death of Indicators - FP

"...approach a junction with a left turn which you intend to take, and a small side road on the left just before. If you indicate left, someone might pull out from the side road into your path."

So what do you recommend? No signals at all? Surely you signal, but immediately after the first turn.

The second example is undermined by saying, "You can't win", which I take to mean there is no one way to handle this one. You might as well signal and get to the left soonish. It's more the delayed drift back into the nearside lane that will encourage the undertaker, not the signal.

Edited by FP on 29/04/2015 at 17:52

All - The death of Indicators - FP

My last bit was not well put. I should have typed:

"You might as well signal and get to the left soonish. It's more the delayed drift back into the nearside lane that will encourage the tailgater, not the signal."

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

Trilogy, a dangerous and/or misleading signal should not be given.

I still am at a loss to see how always signalling your intention, i.e. giving information, correctly could any more dangerous than giving the signal when you've thought about it. Obviously making sure it is cancelled when no longer needed. I am not suggesting having your brain out of gear. A decent driver would know if a signal could cause confusion. Then don't give it. A correct signal is a correct signal.

I still suspect more accidents are caused by drivers not signalling when they should have done.

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

I know one example, approach a junction with a left turn which you intend to take, and a small side road on the left just before. If you indicate left, someone might pull out from the side road into your path.

Another case is when a nutter is on your tail while you overtake. Indicating left, before you pull in, means nutter might accelerate and move even closer to you. Best not to indicate and just move left when safe. (Nutter might take this as an invite to undertake, so you can't win really.)

Leif, well done. Your first comment is the example I was going to use. Sadly, there are accidents when drivers indicate too early and fatalities too. A friend of a friend died when a numpty was in robotic I always indicate to let others know what I am doing mode. If there is no one behind you, it is of course not necessary to indicate.

To all, please think what you are doing. There are always exceptions. None of us is perfect. We all make mistakes, but we just have to minimise them as much as possible.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif
As an inexperienced driver I nearly pulled out in front of someone, indicating left, as per the scenario earlier. Sorry about your friend.

Locally I keep seeing people indicating right then left when going straight ahead on a two lane roundabout. It gives me the willies, as I do not know if they are turning right, so I cannot overtake. Some people are thick enough to occupy the left lane, when turning right.
All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy
As an inexperienced driver I nearly pulled out in front of someone, indicating left, as per the scenario earlier. Sorry about your friend. Locally I keep seeing people indicating right then left when going straight ahead on a two lane roundabout. It gives me the willies, as I do not know if they are turning right, so I cannot overtake. Some people are thick enough to occupy the left lane, when turning right.

Agree.

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

The example provided is a standard, given in the Highway Code, for the incorrect use of indicators.

I totally agree with the need for drivers to think and we need to work at our driving.

I suspect we may have different interpretations of automatically signalling. Providing drivers do not fail to indicate when they should - fine.

Providing drivers do not give misleading signals, signalling automatically, in my opinion, is fine.

Safe driving everyone.

All - The death of Indicators - Andrew-T

<< If there is no one behind you, it is of course not necessary to indicate. >>

I'm sure you don't mean exactly this. Your signals can have just as much value to those in front, including pedestrians who may be waiting to cross, for example.

All - The death of Indicators - Avant

There's one other really infuriating example of over-indicating that I cna think of: people who are going to go straight over a roundabout (second exit in a typical four-exit roundabout) but indicate right when approaching the roundabout, then left when about to turn off.

The impression given is that they're going to take the third exit to effect a right turn, but then often cut across to come off at the second. Most civilised drivers don't indicate at all before the roundabout if they're going straight on, then left before they turn off.

For some reason it's mainly elderly drivers who do this.

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, many years ago, learners were taught to indicate right when entering a roundabout then left before the exit. This is another example of incorrect signalling, because it does confuse.

If the country took driving sufficiently seriously there would be factual programmes informing people of what should be done. I know there is a driving test but regular input on good driving I believe would be valuable.

I regularly watch good driving DVDs by instructors like Chris Gilbert to keep things fresh in my mind.

All - The death of Indicators - Wackyracer

I know there is a driving test but regular input on good driving I believe would be valuable.

Your right but, that would also need people like me who are willing to admit that we can make mistakes and also keen to try our best to be better drivers.

The problem is people (who are not interested in driving) take a driving test, Then they never look at the highway code again. They just do as they please with the thought "I've passed my test so it does not matter anymore" or "I've been driving since 1950 so I know everything there is to know" (but, have often forget pretty much everything including the meaning of 90% of road signs)

I am a firm believer of only indicating if neccesary. I got a fair bit of flack for it on some other threads. This does not encourage people to not bother indicating, It makes you indicate with thought rather than an automatic robotised action.

Typical example - I'm parked up at the side of the road, I get in the car start engine etc, Check mirrors and road ahead, there is no cars, pedestrians or cyclists. If I indicate, Who is going to benefit? answer is obviously nobody. So is there any point? If I did indicate it would prove that I was not really acting on the information I observed in mirrors and by looking around. So I could argue that it was not an indicating fault but, an observation fault.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif

That is the argument I have heard, that automatic signalling is consistent with a lack of awareness. Someone once argued strongly against my views, saying you should indicate because you don't know what is coming and will need the information. Well, you should know what is coming, otherwise you should not be driving.

All - The death of Indicators - Andrew-T

I'm parked up at the side of the road, I get in the car start engine etc, Check mirrors and road ahead, there is no cars, pedestrians or cyclists. If I indicate, Who is going to benefit? answer is obviously nobody.

The only flaw in that argument is that it assumes that you are aware of every possible observer or that you have unobstructed vision in all directions. Can you be sure of that?

All - The death of Indicators - Trilogy

I'm parked up at the side of the road, I get in the car start engine etc, Check mirrors and road ahead, there is no cars, pedestrians or cyclists. If I indicate, Who is going to benefit? answer is obviously nobody.

The only flaw in that argument is that it assumes that you are aware of every possible observer or that you have unobstructed vision in all directions. Can you be sure of that?

Andrew -T. Scenarios are different. You have to make a decision on the information available.

All - The death of Indicators - Leif

That assumes people want to learn. I took some IAM lessons and they were of huge benefit, picking up some bad habits, and teaching me some new ideas. I once knew someone who described himself as a professional driver. Being in his car as a passenger was a terrifying experience. He would swear at other drivers, tail gate, speed, it was really horrible! I suspect this person would not watch programmes for amateurs. ;)

All - The death of Indicators - scot22

Wacky, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. If everyone shared your philosophy our car journeys would be safer and more enjoyable.

On the main thread, I suspect it is one of the cases when there are valid reasons for both points of view.

In the end I think it comes down to drivers wanting to improve, being aware we ALL make mistakes sometimes and considering other road users. Not too much to ask for.

All - The death of Indicators - Wackyracer

That assumes people want to learn. I took some IAM lessons and they were of huge benefit, picking up some bad habits, and teaching me some new ideas. I once knew someone who described himself as a professional driver. Being in his car as a passenger was a terrifying experience. He would swear at other drivers, tail gate, speed, it was really horrible! I suspect this person would not watch programmes for amateurs. ;)

I know someone like that, in his opinion he is the best driver in the world. He never understood why his young kids got car sick when he drove but, not when his wife drove.