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I recall Car Mechanics magazine saying that EFI would prove a nightmare for secondhand owners to maintain - c 1988.
In reality, EFI has proven to be one of the most reliable bits of a car..
30 years ago, a car was clapped out at 80k miles. Today mileages of 300k with very few replacements are commonplace today.
Even (some) French cars can be very reliable- loads of HDI Xantias with well over 100k miles..
Thirty years ago, exhaust systems lasted 4 years at most. Now 10 years is quite normal for high mileage cars,
And I can recall engine coolant hoses being clapped out after five years. Japanese car ones last 13-15 years easily..
Do I miss brake adjustment, contact points and plug gap resetting? Nope..
It's a compliment to the white goods industry - which is what cars have become.
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Don't confuse 21,000 miles and annual servicing.
If JLR are happy to do that (servicing at 21,000 miles) or annually, which I am sure will be in the "small print" then all well and good. This engine has run millions of miles in testing and also under stressed conditions, so theoretically it will do well.
However do The petrol and diesel models have the same service intervals, that is not clear.
The proof will be in the resale market, buying a possibly almost 4 year old car that might only have one service so far.
Any takers???
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Any takers???
I know someone with an XF, his repair bills are more than i pay for cars.
It's a buyers market, the new car buyer can choose to buy into this type of servicing, or not...invariably the new car user has little or no choice and isn't in the least bothered either way because the car will be replaced again once warranty is out.
It's a used car buyers market too, also has the choice whether to buy into a car that has been serviced in this manner, or not.
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>I know someone with an XF, his repair bills are more than i pay for cars.
And my repair bills in five years for my XF have been precisely €0.
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<< Why is progress so often derided? >>
Because manufacturers are responsible for repairs during the warranty period, and after that you're on your own, mate. Especially aimed at fleet or 'management' owners, costs are pared to the bone, so if oil changes can be eliminated during warranty that would be great. That kind of 'progress' doesn't supply the young-used car market with a supply of vehicles in ideal condition. But JLR owners probably don't keep theirs after the warranty expires, so why worry?
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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-tran...l
Look at the highest cost to repair column om the chart at the end of the article....some eye watering sums there!!
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The cars with circa 20,000mile oil change intervals use much better oil and typically hold 2-3 times as much as your average asian transportation appliance.
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Like the 4 odd litre sump under the now famous (for the wrong reason) 1.6 Diesel found in those well known Asian PSA Ford and Volvo models.
It's not just about how good the oil is, it's what the oil is carrying suspended around the engine.
Fortunately, we as buyers don't have to agree that 20k intervals are a good thing and can vote with our feet.
Edited by gordonbennet on 16/04/2015 at 11:27
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The cars with circa 20,000mile oil change intervals use much better oil and typically hold 2-3 times as much as your average asian transportation appliance.
Got any data to back up that ? Because I'll tell you right now that it's a pile of dross, and I worked for a major multinational, in the oil development labs.
Castrol, for example, list exactly the same oil for a Hyundai iX35 (as an example of 'average asian transport') as they do for my BMW 325d. I think Castrol know a little bit about oils. In addition, my car (2.0d engine, inspite of the 325d name) is listed as needing 5 to 5.5 litres of oil. The Hyundai (2.0d variant) is listed as 6-7 litres.
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20k service intervals (with strict conditions) are the norm these days. If the manufacturers thought it was unreasonable and would lead to reliabilty issues would they gamble their reputations? Sure there will always be a few questionable failures but there were questionable failures when it was 12k and even 6k and lets be honest here.......the roadsides are not exactly littered with modern cars with kippered engines.
I am 100% sure that somewhere in the world there are presently oils in development and that R&D is taking place that will extend service intervals to 30k or even higher. When the manufacturing costs involved become reasonable and any reliabilty issues ironed out it will undoubtedly happen.
We need to get over the mindset that oils degrade like they did a few decades ago.....they obviously dont. The car market continually demands progress and advancement and if the manufacturers dont deliver they fall by the wayside and get left behind.
I remember my Grandad climbing underneath his Ford Pop and greasing his trunnions evey 6 months!, nowadays it would be laughed at. Maybe in 40 years time my great grandsons will remember me climbing underneath my car every year to change the oil and laugh just as much
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We need to get over the mindset that oils degrade like they did a few decades ago.....they obviously dont.
I have no doubt that today's oils last better than they did 30 years ago, especially in an engine which uses unleaded petrol. But when fresh oil in a diesel engine is opaque after a few miles' driving, it strains credulity to suggest that it should last 12,000 without needing a change.
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Not really, the fact the oil is black suggests its holding the inevitable combustion by-products rather then allowing them to lodge in the engine.......doesnt it?
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I remember my Grandad climbing underneath his Ford Pop and greasing his trunnions evey 6 months!, nowadays it would be laughed at. Maybe in 40 years time my great grandsons will remember me climbing underneath my car every year to change the oil and laugh just as much
He'll probably be laughing at how people used to replace engine parts such as EGR's and turbochargers regularly instead of having a new pre charged fuel/power cell dropped in.
Some things are certain and will never change, someone will be after the small amount of money the govt of the day haven't already removed before he saw it.
We all know oils have improved, what hasn't changed is that engines, especially Diesels, still have combustion by products and its those that are the real enemy of the engine itself (note how turbos and timing chains are now almost consumables in some cases), and for the small cost involved if you do it sensibly avoiding the main dealer, it's cheap as chips to renew the oil and filter to get rid of those nasties between the makers recommended (to please the leasers and companies) intervals.
Each to their own, if you buy new, or someone else is buying you a car, and it's replaced when warranty exprires, it matters not a jot...but there are many of us out there who won't be in the least interested in a minimally serviced car unless it's so cheap it can be thrown away should it seriously fail, so new car buyers who do the bare minimum lessen their buyers pool and potential price.
Edited by gordonbennet on 16/04/2015 at 12:54
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In addition to him greasing the trunions I also remember him and my dad rebuilding the bottom end at 35K, call it 36k and its the same as as 6 oil changes at the the time.
6 oil changes today equates to about 120k......go figure.
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The problem is not the oil, per se, modern full synthetics dont break down and can last far longer than we are talking here, BUT the problem is the contamination of the oil from the engine, environment and combustion process. Fuel, part burnt hydrocarbons, gums, varnishes, water, soot, acidic compounds all get into the oil. Also metallic wear of several types at sub filtration levels get mixed into what becomes a diluted slurry of grinding paste.
The rate at which that happens varies widely and depends heavily on how the engine is used and driven.For instance many short distance runs with stop starts where the engine never gets to full operating temperature for any significant time, is a recipe fpr rapid contamination especially in cold damp climates.
Slightly different contaminants for petrol vs diesels.
Sure, there are more additives in long life oils to help combat acid build up and aid suspension of sub micron level debris, but it can only go so far to help.
As an example, I know, from experience, that the sub par quality camchains that VAG used (and admitted), wear at their pivots, due to poor stamping combined with the grinding ability of oil contaminants. They then "stretch" and can lead to early writeoff of engines. This process is accelerated greatly when you run 20,000 miles regimes opposed to 10,000 miles.
Its no coincidence that VAG have dropped camchains in all their new designs. VAG dont care about what happens when the warranty expires. Its always the customers fault.
Its a complicated subject, dependent on many many variables. If you intend to keep your car for a long time, change the oil regularly! After many years preaching the mantra of oils are that good that you can extend the drain interval, I finally saw the light when problems surfaced on our Octavia 1.2tsi camchain, and saw how badly gummed up the oil was on one of our Fabias that had done less than 5000 miles over 12 months even though in both cases, the oils were the best longlife synthetics.
Diesel may be another matter, I only have one old school rotary pump 1.9tdi which seems bombproof (touch wood). I suspect modern diesel that regenerate DPFs and contaminate the oil with fuel simultaneously are more fragile.
it seems all new engines are being designed to use the minimum material necessary, e.g. smaller bearings that offer lower friction, but will they last as long when you throw some dirty oil at them??
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One thing not yet mentioned is, what effect will automatic stop-start systems (that they put on modern cars to fake another 10g of CO2) have on engine life?
Engineers used to say that 90% of engine wear takes place in the first few seconds of starting.
Discuss.....
Edited by brum on 16/04/2015 at 13:16
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Stop start, not going to found operating on any car i own...unlikely to own a vehicle new enough to have it, ever...turbos bound to suffer, but again probably after warranty has expired so no one's bothered.
This seems an ideal moment to add this link to the proceedings, it's not a JLR engine, its the 1.6 Diesel as found in PSA Ford and Volvo cars, and possibly some BINI's too, not sure what else.
www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentati...f
Thanks to the original poster here who linked it a few weeks ago, long live long life servicing..:-)
By the way Private Investor, were you CIA in yer previous life, opened the door slung a grenade in dived for it till the shrapnel stops...you've got us all going here and vanished.
Edited by gordonbennet on 16/04/2015 at 13:24
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Good link, shows that once you allow contamination to build up beyond a certain level, its almost impossible to remove with magic solutions such as engine flushes (snake oil).
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Brum, i don't know where you'd start to clean that engine up, unless you did it yourself it wouldn't be cost effective, even then it would only take missing one lump of carbon to render all that work null and void when it jammed itself in the turbo oil feed pipe.
Not just Diesels either, i've seen 2 V12 Merc petrol engines stripped out on my indies bench with rocker area black death that would put a neglected Escort CVH to shame.
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Good link, shows that once you allow contamination to build up beyond a certain level,
bad link, as merely shows effect of neglect and doesn't describe the quality of the 5 'services' it had in 107,000m. Also, it's a dirty diesel.
Was the oil changed when warm and were a few hours allowed for it to completely drain out? Old sludge sticks to the sides like tomato sauce in the bottle and needs time to flow to the bottom. Was the oil filter replaced (looks as though not) and were good quality ones used?
I can think of no good reason not to reuse the highly expensive synthetic oil after 10,000m in my Audi in our 15yr old 107,000m 1.6 Focus. The Focus is worth peanuts and I doubt if we will do more than another 50,000m in it. After that I could use it in my 40yr old mowers. Reminds me of triple expansion steam engines.......waste not want not...
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<< I can think of no good reason not to reuse the highly expensive synthetic oil after 10,000m in my Audi >>
I am assuming that you are changing the filter and reusing the 'expensive' oil ? With the notion that all the junk has been caught in the filter? Probably true, but I don't think even the best synthetics withstand simple mechanical breakdown in an engine indefinitely - the molecules just aren't as stringy and lubricant after weeks or months being thrashed round a hot engine. They may not oxidise much, but some of them get smaller.
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<< I can think of no good reason not to reuse the highly expensive synthetic oil after 10,000m in my Audi >>
I am assuming that you are changing the filter and reusing the 'expensive' oil ?
Assumption correct. No point renewing oil without renewing filter.
I would be interested to know how long a bog standard unturboed petrol engine might last once it has nicely bedded in at say 20,000m with no subsequent oil changes at all, just a filter change every 10,000m. I think a highmiler should be crowdfunded to find out.
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I quote from the above reference case:
Serviced by a main franchised dealer 2 times from new, at every 30,000 miles approx , and 3 times by an independent garage 3 times in total, every 15,000 miles
No-one is suggesting 30k intervals.. That engine was grossly neglected..
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Speaking from recent personal experience I found the extended service scheme very good. When I bought my last car I spoke to the dealer service manager and we discussed the situation. I had the choice of more regular oil changes using standard oil or extended ones using long life oil. At the time I drove 30k+ miles per year and mainly motorway too, so I chose extended services. My car, a Skoda Superb 1.9TDi 130PD, used to flag up a service about every 19k or so, which turned out to be about every 6 or 7 months. I still have the car and it is now 10 years old with nearly 200k on the clock. Never missed a beat, no smoke from the exhaust, excellent fuel consumption and has used 3 litres of long life in top ups in 10 years. I think the answer is; you pick the service regime according to how you use the car. High mileage will benefit from extended services while low mileage will not. Horses for courses. I don't think either scheme can be derided for what it is, it is just a matter of choice.
Cheers Concrete
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