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As you've pointed out yourself, 'lifetime' means 'for the designed lifespan of the car', rather than 'will last forever'.
BMW had a similar misguided policy a number of years ago, with 'filled for life' gearboxes. It usually meant that the gearbox went bang at 100-120k miles, and being expensive, meant that a considerable number of cars became uneconomical to repair.
Engine coolant should certainly be changed every 3-5 years, in my opinion. The rust inhibitors do degrade over time.
Gearbox oil, people can argue it all day long. BEST practice would probably be after 1 yr old, and then every 5 years or so, depending on mileage.
PAS fluid is very similar to brake fluid, in physical composition and properties. It isn't under the same conditions, so probably twice the change interval, say 6 yrs or so.
I doubt you'll find any 'official' VAG statement regarding those, though. After all, if they did, then it would bump up lease/PCP/fleet costs, or pull down residuals, as the next buyers would be able to point at the upcoming bills.
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In 40+ years of driving I have both maintained cars myself and had them dealer maintained, here are examples of what has been done.
Gearbox oil. Never had it changed.
Engine coolant. That depnds on the type of antifreeze used. If its the old fashioned stuff every 3 years max. (normally 2) but the long life stuff is normally in for 6 years.
Brake fluid. Every 3 years max. but normally every 2 years.
PAS fluid. Never had it changed.
Fuel Filters etc. Changed at specified intervals.
I would be stunned if your Skoda delaer had not changed the brake fluid or engine coolant in 12 years. They are on the VAG service schedule for all to see.
In the knowledge that a recent VAG UK directive specified that cam belts now had to be changed at 4 yearly, 40,000 mile intervals
I have a 2013 Seat Leon 1.4 TSi which has a cam belt. The official cam belt replacement schedule (e-mailed to me by Seat Customer Services in June 2014) is to inspect at 60,000 and every service thereafter and replace if damaged. Replace at 5 years or 120,000 miles regardless of condition.
Edited by skidpan on 28/01/2015 at 16:43
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Just to confirm, I've checked all the service records from new, including all the annotations., going back 12 years
Engine oil, Brake fluid, engine air filter, pollen filter and brake pads are the only things that this dealer has replaced during services on a regular basis.
Spark plugs were last replaced six years ago.
Fuel filter, Gearbox oil, power stearing fluid aa and engine coolant are not listed on any of the service documentaion as ever been renewed. I certainly have never been charged for them and the amounts involved would be large enough to warrant aline entry in the invoice for each item.
The only thing done was for the first time last year when a value for the coolant was measured (Presumably a pass/fail test using a value obtained from a hydrometer).
If you look at the on-line VW Service Schedule ERWIN, not only isn't there a stated service interval for the fuel filter but there is no stated service procedure for the fuel filter - one would have thought, perhaps, that at 3/4 year periods there would have been a service procedure for measuring the fuel pressure being supplied at the inlet to the filter and at the outlet This could be then compared with reference data from a pristine filter so that a "Heads up" assessment could be made as to how dirty/blocked the filter was. This data would be inferential, but better than nothing.
As it stands there's no service interval or procedure specilfied for the fuel filters for Fabias - but for diesels, there is.
Similarly, ERWIN just says inspect andf top-up gearbox fluid as necessary at each inspection service (About once every two years). There's no replacement interval or procedure for replacement specified.
Same for Power steering fluid.
However, coolant is a diffrent matter.
My feeling is that the fuel filter, gearbox oil, power steering oil and coolant should be replaced after 12 years. Even though the vehicle has only done 60,000, these components and fluids deteroiate with age.
Don't get me wrong, the car is running fine at the moment, but I don't won't to be in the position where the serviceablity and lifespan of one of these components is put at risk, because they weren't serviced correctly.
The motoring forums in the USA for both BMW and VAG (Particularly Audis and Golfs) are advising to change these things by 60,000 miles. And there are plenty of instances where owner/drivers have taken the "Lifetime" declarations of the motoring manufacturers seriously, and have driven well in excess of this (100,000-120000) and then experienced severe and costly component failure.
Perhaps, as some have said Skoda/VAGs policy on this is conditioned by the fact that the largest owners of their vehicles are fleet users, who will buy from new and ditch their vehicles after two-three years, never reaching the age/mileage threshold at which these issues occur.
So, all you can conclude is that the MM's don't give a stuff about private new single vehicle private owners or second hand owners. SO its PRIVATE OWNER, buyer beware.
It seems to me that these standards, if they exist could do with some publicity.
Nick
Edited by Clunkclick on 28/01/2015 at 17:29
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As you've pointed out yourself, 'lifetime' means 'for the designed lifespan of the car', rather than 'will last forever'.
Quite right. The manufacturer's intended design life of a modern car can be as little as three years. It's not in their interests to make it repairable, they want you to throw it away and buy a new one. In relation to earnings new cars are now cheaper than they've ever been.
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Quite right. The manufacturer's intended design life of a modern car can be as little as three years
Not that old nonsense again. Cars last longer now than they have ever done. When I was started driving a 10 year old car was at the end of its life both mechanically and bodily. Now you see loads of 15+ year old cars that are still in good usable condition. Our 7 year old Micra looks virtually new both inside and out with no extra special care, just washed every couple of weeks.
Its true to say that some repairs to older cars can be uneconomic with new parts but specialists can normally source good used parts to keep them on the road.
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Are we saying that the Department of Transport granted Type Approval for these vehicles on the basis that they would be beyond economic repair after three years ? I think not.
VAG incapable of specifying something along the lines of "Three score years and ten" ?
IMHO, what you are seeing here is marketing trumping engineering interests in a situation where over 50% of car sales are to 3 year fleet users. And the remaining private owners from new are too dumb to know what a proper servicing and vehicle lifetime should be.
If only I could be assured this policy was consistent "Across the group" .
I can't see Porsche and Buggatti owners standing for this sort of BS and lack of precision.
And, if its good enough for them, its definately good enough for me.
If they are so confident in the "Lifetime fit" standard, where's the matching "Lifetime" warranty provisions to give buyers that extra assurance ?
Nick
Edited by Clunkclick on 28/01/2015 at 17:46
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Are we saying that the Department of Transport granted Type Approval for these vehicles on the basis that they would be beyond economic repair after three years ? I think not.
The DOT could not care if the car lasted 3 seconds as long as it was roadworthy.
You entire argument is falacious based on expectations for £100k cars being applied to £20k cars.
The real world is not like that.
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"The DOT could not care if the car lasted 3 seconds as long as it was roadworthy" - can't see that appearing in many brochures.
Economically, as a private small car owner, replacing a car every three years is not feasible and economically its extremely wasteful. That's why you still see a fair number of older cars. Further the technology cycle on these cars is about 20 years - so if you buy at anything less than a 20 year cycle you won't get new technology efficiency improvements.
.It may be a marketeers pipe dream, but economically its a non-starter. Even if it were possible at the lowest level of buyers i.e.the polo/Yaris/Corsa owners, the Treasury would have a fit as the Balance of Payments on international trade went even further into deficit (If that's possible).
So lifespan and durability must be a consideration for DOT, if its only on ecvonomic grounds, let alone public safety.
There may be more older cars on the roads, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are in a better state of serviceability, more that people have got larger incomes. You can't say, looking at a passing older vehicle, how much extra maintenance has actually been done to keep it on the road. It may be and probably is well in excess of current recommendations by manufacturers.
N
Edited by Clunkclick on 28/01/2015 at 18:21
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"You entire argument is falacious based on expectations for £100k cars being applied to £20k cars"
Many of the components are common across the range.
A European Court might find such an attitude was discrimantory against budget buyers, especially when its remembered that the prestige car manufacturer market couldn't stand alone without the infrastructure provided by the mass market manufacturers.
N
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I don't know how other buyers would feel, but, personally, after paying out the money sufficient to secure a "Ten year lifespan" car of old, I'd be a bit p***ed if it transpired that what the manufacturer really sold me was a three year car. I'd say its a form of contractual misrepresenation.
There's just too many legal loopholes for these b*****s.
N
Edited by Clunkclick on 28/01/2015 at 18:31
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Personally, I'd rather not wait at the discretion of the EMU, when at some future date unspecified, it decides to flick a CEL light in the instrument binnacle (Based on inferential data from other components) and I have to pull over and turn the engine off, whilst in the middle of nowhere in the middle of France, on my annual holiday, only to find after shelling out £200 in towing and garage fees that a component that could have been replaced for £50, including labour at a regular service, has failed or gone beyond serviceability limits.
I know what I'll be doing, instructing the dealer to replace the fuel filter and gearbox oil at the next service and the coolant and power steering fluid at the following service.
Hopefully at 2-4k annual mileage that will keep it going for the next five years.
Edited by Clunkclick on 28/01/2015 at 18:53
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No one said cars only last three years? What I said was the manufacturer's intended design life can be as little as three years. That isn't the same thing at all. I've worked in the motor trade for over 30 years, had more training than I can remember, had numerous visits to vehicle manufacturing sites and training departments, worked on the technical helpdesk for one of the UK's major motoring organisations right alongside people who know about motor vehicles, and I've heard the same story again and again. Cars are not intended to last, even though they do. Skidpan is a DIYer, and his experience is based on his own motoring rather than a profession.
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You've missed the point there. I didn't expect the car to last for ever. This is my third car, so I'm well aware of that simple fact.
All I'm trying to find out is the following:-
1). Which components/fluids on my Skoda Fabia are officially classified by them as a "Lifetime fit" and therefore require no attention during services.
2). How long does a "Lifetime fit" endure for, as far as VAG are concerned.
Is it 3 years, 5 years, !0 years, 15 years ? Or, alternatively, ot 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k, 100k or 150k miles ?
At the moment, I'm only able to speculate as to what components possibly fall into the "Lifetime Fit" category by reviewing the full service history for the car and enumerating which components/fluids haven't been changed. In these circumstances, I can't definitively tell whether an unserviced component is an act of neglect/ommission by the dealer or whether VAG intended it to be treated in this way.
I'm sure Skoda UK wouldn't want this information to be kept from customers, bearing in mind that could impact future customer loyality.
If there is an official answer to these questions then it would help inform my decision as to whether I should request the main dealer to replace the fuel filter, renew the gearbox oil, renew the engine coolant and renew the power steering fluid at the next or forthcoming services.
Simple facts, which the novice, on his first week afterstarting in the office, should be able to ascertain and tell me.
All the components that compromise VAG and Skoda vehicles have all been designed to an engineering specification which will have been prepared before they stamped the first body components or poured the first engine casting or let the first contract to a sub-contractor supplier. This specification and the component testing resultd will hold the detail as to how long a component can be kept serviceable/used.
The way some people react when you ask these simple questions, you would think you were asking them to workout the riddle of the Sphinx.
I have to say I have now contacted Skoda Customer service by e-mail and hope to speak to them tomorrow. Let's hope they've got the Sphinx all squared-away, otherwise they next stop will be Mr Winterkorn.
Nick
Edited by Clunkclick on 29/01/2015 at 00:17
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If you buy a VAG car, you must realise tehy design new parts abd don't properly test them before using them: see coild, DSG gearboxes and timing chains.
If you want long lasting cars, buy Toyota or Honda. (They have longer warranties as well.) Or Korean (7 year warranty).
Simple.
(And it IS simple. Warranty length = maker confidence in design and build quality).
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From recollection, the 3 year makers warranty was about the industry standard when I bought the Fabia in 2003. South-East Asian manufacturer warranties only started going skywards after that point.
contraire !. I got 17 years out of my previous car - a VW Golf Mk1. And when I sold it on it still had a MOT and was completely serviceable.
On my estimation, my current Czech-built Skoda Fabia is better built than the 1981 Belgium built Golf.
All that's needed is the information I've requested to ensure its correctly serviced. This information was freely available with the Golf Mk1 at that time !
Nick
Edited by Clunkclick on 29/01/2015 at 10:26
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We need to understand that technology regarding the engine management systems in cars today are entirely driven by the ever more strict emission standards. And those standards are set to get even tighter by 2019. No one yet has come up with credible alternative to a conventional piston engine, and so we're still stuck with the Victorian relatively inefficient units powering our cars. Precise control improves matters, but in no way does it solve all the problems. Electric cars are a waste of time, and hybrids aren't really the answer, plus they're expensive.
Car manufacturers have a duty to provide the consumer with a product that will last a reasonable time, but how do you define 'reasonable'? They also know that after a period of use a car is not likely to be able to meet the emission standards. Why do so many older cars have MIL's illuminated? All manner of engine wear conspires against the ECM to maintain the stoichiometric 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio.
So the manufacturer intends a car to last typically from three to five years, and the service and maintenance schedule is set out accordingly. Beyond that the owner is on his own.
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"So the manufacturer intends a car to last typically from three to five years, and the service and maintenance schedule is set out accordingly. Beyond that the owner is on his own."
Anyone with any understand of statistics and distribution theory will understand the glaring holes in that statement.
Think srandard deviation.
Edited by madf on 30/01/2015 at 10:28
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Anyone with any understanding of statistics will also know that:-
There are lies.
There are damn lies.
And there are statistics.
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There are distribution curves and probability theory which enable you to forecast what kind of lifespan you can get from a product and how many fail before teh "average" you aim for. If you aim for a lifespan of 3 years, you will have a forecastable number of failures at 2 years.. etc..
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I think you have completely missed the point, which is no one is saying cars will only last three or five years. History has proved that. What I'm saying is the car manufacturers don't build them with the 'INTENTION' of them lasting beyond that. Large passenger aircraft are built with service and maintenance in mind, and built to serve for a reasonably long period of time, say 20 years or more. Large passenger vessels are also designed and built that way. Cars are not, but that isn't to say they won't. Am I making myself clear now?
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Here's the text of the E-mail response That I got from Skoda Customer Service Uk regarding "Lifetime" components on my Fabia:-
"Dear Mr *******
Thank you for your email dated 27 January 2015 regarding your ŠKODA Fabia.
I have checked with our Technical Department and they have confirmed that there are no recommendations in the service intervals for the replacement of the petrol fuel filter, manual gearbox oil or power steering fluid.
If you would like to have these items replaced then your ŠKODA Retailer would be able to perform these tasks and charge you accordingly.
I trust this information has been of help to you, but should you require any further help then please feel free to contact me on the telephone number listed below."
It was also later confirmed over the telephone that the engine coolant (Pink, G12, in the case of my car) is also a "Lifetime" component.
I think VAG are being dishonest. If, as you say they are designing cars for lifetimes of 3- 5 years, then statisically, just as there will be cars that become economically unserviceable before this time, then there will be cars that go beyond this time.
And I would say, that most non-fleet, private customers would expect when purchasing a car that they want and think they are buying a car which will stay serviceable for at least 10 years., even if the warranty doesn't fully cover 10 years. Granted most private buyers won't keep the car that long.
The proof that these cars can operate beyong the "Design-life", if properly maintained and serviced is evidenced by such vehicles still being roadworthy and on the records that DVLA holds and by the increasing number of older cars on the road.
So, for customers that have this expectation, the omission, by VAG, of any statements in the sales and marketing literature and car manuals as to "Lifetime" components is seriously duplicitous and two-faced and is a slight against the private owner.
One wonders whether this ommission in the literature has been corrected with later VAG marques ?
As it stands now, VAG are seriously behind the curve as regards warranty terms and provisions as compared to the far eastern manufacturers.
When are VAG going to wake-up ?
N
Edited by Clunkclick on 03/02/2015 at 11:40
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VAG and other manufacturers don't design cars to last 3 to 5 years.
Your car is 12 years old and running fine thus immediately dispenses with that load of total nonsense.
If I made a note of cars over 5 years old on our street it would be a huge number, greater than newer ones I do not doubt.
Do as Skoda suggest, get the petrol filter, gearbox oil and power steering fluid changes if taht is what you choose and continue enjoying life.
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If yup were out down the pub having a pint with the managing director of Skoda UK or any other manufacturer, and you asked him when you bought your car new if he'd preferred if you kept your car for twelve years or bought another new one after three years what do you think his reply would be?
Consumer demand for cars is huge, and has been since the end of WW2. The manufacturers are well aware of that. People will not stop buying or using their cars. It's not in the manufacturer's interest to build them to last. In fact quite the opposite. Beeching and Marples even closed a third of the UKs railway network because people preferred cars over trains. But for the past 30 years or so cars haven't improved or changed much. What has changed is our perception of them. They still have an internal combustion engine and a synchromesh gearbox, hydraulic disc brakes and McPherson strut suspension, just as cars did in the late 80s. In that sense they're no different. Cars today though are loaded with gimmicks. Why is this? It's because it's what the consumer wants. The concept of the motor car as we know it has had all the improvements it's ever going to have. No car manufacturer can come up with anything that's genuinely new anymore, yet in the face of competition they have to be seen to be innovative and forward thinking. Cars are cheap to buy. Finance for their purchase is relatively easy to obtain. There are more relatively new cars on the road now than there's ever been, and as I said before the emission standards are set to get even more strict over the next few years making repairs on older cars uneconomical.
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I bought my first "good quality" car new in 1986, 29 years ago. Prior to that all the cars I owned either new or used were pretty much rubbish. Constant niggling faults, poor paintwork after a couple of years, structural corrosion after about 4 years.
The car I bought in 1986 was a Golf. It was so good that after 3 1/2 years I replaced it with an identical Golf. That 1989 Golf was finally taken off the road in November 2013, 24 1/2 years after I bought it.
During the last 20 or so years we have bought cars from BMW, Ford, Kia, Mini, Nissan and Volkswagen. All have been excellent with the exception of the Mini, not unreliable or rusty just had oil leaks. No cars have suffered rust, none have had catastophic failures, all have done exactly what you would expect. They have all been main dealer serviced with no extra work required except for a spring on the BMW and Micra and an alternator belt on the C-Max. The Micra is now 7 1/2 years old and still looks new inside and out. Will probably keep it for another few years yet. When we sold the C-Max it was 5 years old, the chap that bought it still has it, 10 years old now, still rust free and its had no major issues.
I am quite happy buying modern cars. I certainly don't want to go back to the good old days. They are light years ahead of the cars my dad drove in the 60's.
On our street there is a good spreat of ages of cars from a 64 plate Kia Rio to an "H" plate Sierra Saphire. That is still in daily use, no surface rust, no smoke. In between there are such cars as a "R" plated Renault, a "W" plated Nissan and the usual assortment of Corsa's and Fiesta's of all ages. We rarely see a breakdown truck, when we do its normally the muppets next door who claim to have a son who is a mechanic yet managed to have the car freeze up over the Chtristmas/New Year period, think its been scrapped now.
Don't forget that whilst manufacturers obviously want people to buy new cars the dealers actually make more money servicing and repairing cars than actually selling them. Old car or new car there is money in them for the garages.
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Best car I had was a 1986 Vauxhall Cavalier SRi. It was carmine red and anthracite with alloy wheels, and had a 1.8 OHC engine with LE Jetronic fuel injection. It went like the clappers and was really nice to drive. It didn't have power steering when I got it so I went to a scrappy and bought the rack, pump, pipes and brackets off of a broken car and fitted them on mine, so now it did have PAS. It also had a slide and tilt sunroof. I kept that for seven years. It's probably rusted away now but I wish I still had it.
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