Today i've travelled around 50 miles in upto 6" of snow, not by choice but necessity.
I've passed vehicles at the side of the road and one in a ditch, another with no front end on.
I drive a AWD car which is very capable so i have been held back by slower drivers, BUT always leave a generous braking distance.
Twice i've had a car drive dangerously close, one an X3, the other some large 4x4, i don't care what tyres they have its dangerous driving.
A very apt observation! Just because one is driving a more capable vehicle, doesn't mean everyone else should be.
I note too much intolerance of others who may be less capable, whatever the weather.
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I'll update from my earlier reply too.
Where I am (North Wales), we've had some snow/hail/freezing rain in the last 48 hours, and the roads are treacherous, especially the proper rural roads, where the only sort of gritting that occurs is what you do yourself, from the piles that the council drop off in the autumn.
I've been out, to get some shopping for ourselves and a neighbour who is largely housebound in bad weather. Our 2007 Shogun Sport (16" wheels, Bridgestone A/T tyres), coped admirably in 4WD high mode when needed, and was in 2WD mode for most of the journey.
Seen various neighbours too, all of us have 4WD vehicles, which we have because they are needed - our Mitsi is my wife's daily driver, while I have my BMW for commuting and work.
The only vehicle I've seen stuck was an Audi Q7, which must have been on 20 or 21 inch rims, with ridiculous low-profile tyres, attempting to get up a hill so the family could go sledging. He'd just managed to get it stuck in a hedgerow when I saw him, and I gave him a pull out. He was mystified as to why his 4x4 was stuck, whereas mine had the grip for me AND to pull him out.
He was from Liverpool, over staying with family
Says it all ...
Edited by RobJP on 28/12/2014 at 13:57
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Some of these 2.5-3 tonne behemoths on bling bling wheels and racetrack tyres scare the bejesus out of me - when the overconfident muppet behind the wheel loses control in the snow - it'll take out a small village!
I'm not anti SUV - I drive a Range Rover on sensible wheels and tyres.
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I find the most worrysome aspect of driving in these conditions is not what mess I can get myself into but what mess I can be put into by the actions of other motorists ... it's all very well having 4x4 and / or winter tyres but if the vehicle behind (or oncoming) looses control then suffering the consequence is my fear - i drive a car that's 10 years old, 130k miles, purchased almost brand new, if the car is damaged by another motorist no insurer is going to repair or give much financial compensation to me, I want to replace the car at a time of my choosing, and not as a distress purchase.
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An SUV has 4-wheel drive but all cars have 4-wheel brakes - the message being that an SUV might be able to keep going when others come to a stop in snowy conditions, but it's not necessarily any better at stopping!
Also, while having 4-wheel drive is certainly an advantage on snow it could also just mean that you can go further before becoming stuck - possibly further away from help.
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An SUV has 4-wheel drive but all cars have 4-wheel brakes - the message being that an SUV might be able to keep going when others come to a stop in snowy conditions, but it's not necessarily any better at stopping!
Also, while having 4-wheel drive is certainly an advantage on snow it could also just mean that you can go further before becoming stuck - possibly further away from help.
A 2wd car on the right tyres is way better than a 4x4 on the wrong tyres.
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Twice i've had a car drive dangerously close, one an X3, the other some large 4x4, i don't care what tyres they have its dangerous driving.
I can remember being followed dangerously close by a large HGV on falling snow. The driver had not appreciated that just enough snow had fallen for my car tyres to noticeably lose grip but not enough for those on his much heavier lorry.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 28/12/2014 at 23:22
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Sofa Spud, "An SUV has 4-wheel drive but all cars have 4-wheel brakes - the message being that an SUV might be able to keep going when others come to a stop in snowy conditions, but it's not necessarily any better at stopping!"
I was told that an all wheel drive vehicle, because all the wheels are driven, is marginally less likely to skid than a two wheel drive car where the non-driven wheels can stop completely on ice with gentle braking. Discuss !
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Some 4x4 also have engine braking to all wheels. No matter how you wrap it up a 4x4 is better all round, put the same tyres on both cars and the 2wd is not going to have more traction or stop any quicker.
I'm talking straight comparisons for example a Xtrail 2wd against a Xtrail AWD.
I'm happy with all my wheels being driven in this snow we have at present.
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Interesting point Hillman.
Old school 4 x 4's, that would be RWD for normal road use, leaving you to manually engage the front drive effectively locked the centre diff.
This did massively improve the handling and especially the braking, as you rightly point out the usual case of the front wheels locking up was lo longer the case as they are locked to the rears, whilst potentially in theory a worse case, in practice it imporoved the vehicles no end.
I'm sure many of us older drivers that had really old chod like Zodiac autos with non manual chokes and long before ABS found an interesting thing out, that being on fast idle (manual chokes) we've found ourselves on snow or worse, ice, with the front wheels locked up solid but the fast idle revs still powering the rear wheel drive, needing either to brake heavier to overcome drive or to quickly knock it into neutral.
This brings us to another phenomenon, the fully automated vehicle not being capable of dealing with snow without some input, often trickery, from the driver, the most obvious being switching off the TC/ASR in order to be able to make some progress when conditions deteriorate.
This manifests itself in modern lorries and modern lorry drivers, who haven't been taught in their now superfast training sessions (to pass the test and thats it) to actually drive a lorry, and the majority of logistics operators who increasingly don't want lorry drivers but prefer bums on seats to steer their increasingly fully automated lorries.
This is all very well until snow arrives and some old fashioned skills and taking control from the electronics are the only way to get the things going and keep them going...these new drivers are not encouraged (could even be disciplined for doing so) to take control of their automated manual gearboxes, indeed some of them have had the manual override disabled at factory point, and it's not use whatsoever trying to learn a lorry when there's 6" of snow on the ground.
This applies equally to cars, be interesting for example to see if the electric parking brakes self release on black ice, or is it possible the front wheels could darg the locked rears along with ice on the road not providing enough friction to trigger release, would the mdoern auto pilot driver even know till the car started to yaw?
You have to learn your car whilst conditions are good or expect to fail miserably when conditions aren't good.
I offer one example of this, i regularly deliver to a small factory where the entrance is on a fairly narrow one way street, the street is downhill and the entrance on the neaside goes up another steep bank, so its effectively a jack knife blind side reverse up a steep bank, about as bad as its gets.
I drive a dry road tanker and we usually gross 43 tons or just over but all of our lorries are parcel spec, the same spec as Royal Mail would have to carry 60cu yds of fresh air and three boxes of teddy bears, automated manuals with roughly 12 litre engines, wholly inadequate for the type of operation we do, so tricking the lorry out of doing what it wants to is the only way to get in, this means lifting the mid lfit axle on the tactor unit, and switching off TC, or ASR on my own lorry, if you don't do these things the vehicle starts to wheelspin as the trailer enters the bank and cuts power and you run the risk of broken half shafts and ruined clutches...we've already had one clutch failure here for this reason.
Speaking to one of my colleagues about this place the other day, he and several others are not able to reverse in due to wheelspin, now he's not a new driver by any means, he had no idea about dumping the tax axle (mid lift) air, nor switching off TC....i was amazed and it proved absolutely how shockingly bad our real world driver training is, he now knows what to do and hopefully this will help him in snow when the same principles apply.
My previous lorry had a manual box and it simply romped back up into this delivery without the slightest hiccup.
Edited by gordonbennet on 29/12/2014 at 10:29
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Given that a fair percentage of drivers cannot control the throttle when reversing in the DRY - see thousands of revs and 2 mph - why anyone expects them to be competent on snow - or ice - is beyond me.
Most people use 3,000 rpm and wheelspin to try to move on snow - it is ineffectual of course.
I have the luxury of not driving and postponing visits in snow - many do not..
First thing to do when snow driving is switch ooff traction control..., If it's bad enough for snow socks, it's too bad to travle as you get stuck behind others .
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You only need to turn TC off with 2wd cars.
I've never turned mine off.
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gordonbennet. Can I take that to mean yes ?
, "If it's bad enough for snow socks, it's too bad to travel as you get stuck behind others ."
The best all wheel drive system in the world is useless when you are stuck in traffic in snow behind two wheel drive cars driven by the average motorist.
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Most people use 3,000 rpm and wheelspin to try to move on snow - it is ineffectual of course
Chap up our street used far more revs than that in his Focus a couple of winters ago when we had had a huge dump of snow. He simply made a hole in the snow just big enough to get into the car and cleaned just enough snow off the windscreen to see through. Then he started the car and sat with the engine at about 5000 rpm spinning the wheels until it moved, took about 15 minutes. He had probably wrecked the tyres by then.
He's got a BMW 325i now. God help us when he has to move it.
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Sofa Spud, "An SUV has 4-wheel drive but all cars have 4-wheel brakes - the message being that an SUV might be able to keep going when others come to a stop in snowy conditions, but it's not necessarily any better at stopping!"
I was told that an all wheel drive vehicle, because all the wheels are driven, is marginally less likely to skid than a two wheel drive car where the non-driven wheels can stop completely on ice with gentle braking. Discuss !
On a traditional 4x4 like a Land Rover Defender, it's possible to lock three wheels completely when braking on a slippery surface if the diff-lock isn't engaged, and two wheels (one on each axle) if it is.
Also if you brake sharply on snow or ice in a 4x4 (or any manual vehicle) while it's in gear, the brakes can 'brake' the engine down to tickover or stall in a second or two, while leaving you skidding along the road.
Most modern vehicles have anti-lock brakes so the problem on snow and ice, I guess, is not so much skidding if you brake as not being able to stop in time.
I would agree that under gentle driving in snow or ice, where one is controlling speed just by the throttle, a 4x4 is more controllable. It's when you need to use the brakes (which you do sometimes, whatever the experts might say) that the advantage disappears.
I agree a 4x4 is probably marginally less likely to skid, but what I'm trying to dispel is the false sense of security that some 4x4 drivers seem to display in snow and ice.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 30/12/2014 at 10:29
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Re-ABS?
In general, for cars, what is the MINIMUM speed below which ABS does not activate?
[I am aware that in large vehicles, LGVs/PCVs, etc, ABS won't activate below walking pace, ie circa 7 kph]
In my experience, most mishaps in snow or icy condiditons happen at low speeds.....[for example, the double deck bus coming to a halt, and, once the speed becomes very slow, slipping sideways on the camber, to lean against a lamp post? Very annoying!]
IF...I get to see any snow [despite it being heavens high just 5 miles up the road!]....I shall have to get out my 1950's, Ford-based 2 seater, on its 5.25x16 tyres, and oodles of round clearance, to get anywhere....and s*d the cold!
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Some 4x4 drivers think their vehicles are invincible in snow and ice.
Today's DT has the story of a car driver who skidded on ice, hit a tree and was killed. He was driving a Discovery..
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Doesn't matter what you're driving, whether it has 4WD, FWD or RWD, whether it has winter tyres or not, the laws of physics remain the same, a low friction surface requires more care and sensitivity than a high friction surface.
As an aside, I have to say, for the third winter in a row, I'm delighted with how well my RWD Mercedes copes with winter conditions even on its watch strap profile / beer barrel width tyres !
If you were to believe all the hype you read on sites like this you'd imagine a bit of snow or ice made such cars undrivable. It just doesn't. For sure, you have to take a bit more care, but that should apply to any vehicle.
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Doesn't matter what you're driving, whether it has 4WD, FWD or RWD, whether it has winter tyres or not, the laws of physics remain the same, a low friction surface requires more care and sensitivity than a high friction surface. As an aside, I have to say, for the third winter in a row, I'm delighted with how well my RWD Mercedes copes with winter conditions even on its watch strap profile / beer barrel width tyres ! If you were to believe all the hype you read on sites like this you'd imagine a bit of snow or ice made such cars undrivable. It just doesn't. For sure, you have to take a bit more care, but that should apply to any vehicle.
Ditto. My daily car is a BMW 325d M sport estate, which in summer runs on 19" rims, and the winter tyre set is on 18" wheels.. If there's 6" of snow, then yes, I've got major problems, but so does an FWD Ford Focus, or almost any other car
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Well your experience is very different to most people with rear wheel drive.
My self daughter and son have all found through personal experience that rear wheel drive is best avoided, especially if theres only hill climbing in snow.
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Depends what you're used to I guess. I was brought up on RWD cars in Scotland where I spent most of my formative driving years finding ways of affording being at the ski resorts on winter weekends. My main car then was an MG Midget, not renowned for its rear end grip at the best of times ! The only other car I had access to was my dad's Volvo 240, also RWD. Neither with traction control or ABS.
It's just about having sensitivity to the conditions and driving accordingly. Modern machinery so detaches the driver from the "feel" of the road that I'm sure it encourages heavy footedness.
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Let's see:
Next door neighbour garages his Mercedes 280SE in winter and drives a fwd hatch.
A friend who does yoga had to abandon her Mercedes on an icy road that my Yaruis got along (just).
And another acquantance with a MX5 had tp sushed off an icy car park.
No BMW drivers seen round here in winter.
Of course, we get "proper" ice here.. not namby pamby rubbish that any fool can drive on in a RWD car :-)))))
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My first 3 cars were rear wheel drive.
When i moved to my first house it was midway on a very steep hill, second gear in normal conditions.
During my 7 years there the rwd cars both failed to climb in snow to get the car onto the drive, i had ballast in the boot but it made no difference, a Mk1 cortina followed by a Mk4 Cortina, very basic cars.
I eventually had enough of parking the car at the bottom of the hill and bought my first FWD a Mini Metro. That car got me onto the drive in snow, as did the fwd Honda Accord saloon. As did the Astra.
I havent had a RWD car since, i simply dont see the point of them.
I also tow a caravan and once got stuck on wet muddy grass towing with a Fwd Cavalia. So eventually i bought a 4wd Audi quattro. As yet i have never been stuck on any 4wd car i've had.
I'm not saying i can't be, but my experience has shown me that theres a lot less chance of that happening.
Edited by xtrailman on 30/12/2014 at 20:13
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Fair enough, we all have our preferences, but for the handful of days a year when it might make a difference I'll take my chances thanks ;-)
I drive all over the UK and also sometimes the European mainland for work in my diesel auto E Class estate. It goes out to work no matter what the weather. Being RWD for 95% of the time it drives more pleasingly ( subjectively to me of course ) than the alternative configurations. I'd not for one moment suggest that a 4x4 might not be better in extreme conditions, in fact I've had several of my own including a Discovery, a 4x4 Qashqai and a Defender. But, and this is the only but, the deficiencies of RWD on loose surfaces are much exaggerated. They may be slightly disadvantaged occasionally but only by that much.
Only yesterday for example, in order to access a mountain biking route I needed to drive half a mile or so up a steep, unmade, snow and ice covered track to a forest car park. It was clearly challenging people to walk on on it due to the ice and snow but my car just plodded up it with an occasional blink of the TC light.
A couple of weeks ago I was in the north of Scotland in really quite heavy snowstorms and once again it just chugged on through without drama.
There is far too much hype and scare mongering spoken on this subject but, as is usually the case, if you say something often enough and loud enough it becomes the truth even if it's actually not.
Anyway, what I think is irrelevant really, except to me of course ;-)
Everyone else is more than entitled to believe whatever they want and act accordingly. Just reporting my own experience.
Safe journeys to everyone this winter anyway, whatever wheels your engines are sending the power to !
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Well, all I want to comment on is, it 's very much down to the driver, rather than the vehicle, as to whether progress is made, & maintained.
FWD, or RWD is irrelevant for me.
I have made poor progress in FWD, and equally so in RWD.
And, also quite the opposite.
Having driven mostly double deck buses since the ealry 1970's, largely in more rural environments, I have never actually been 'stuck' in snow with one. I have been stuck because someone else is blocking the road, but never through the inabilities of the vehicle. [RWD? Not all rear engined, either!]
I have struggled to complete journeys in FWD cars, yet driven all over environments like the North York Moors in heavy snow, with nothing more than the expected drama.
In a RWD Volvo 740 estate, with nothing more than 3 bags of logs in the back, and my autistic son asking nicely, 'can we go to Grosmont, Daddy?''...I never disappointed him, ever...in that respect. On that particular trip, where all the roads were being closed, and we had to return southwards...that every single broken down car [ie parked, hazards, and bonnet up...in the dark, in a blizzard]...was a [newish?] BMW. Every car we passed, that was in a ditch, was an Audi. Very notable.
I have also motorcycled..as a means of transport, rather than a weekend pastime, through many snowy nights....not without drama, but nothing a few curses couldn't put right.
It's not just about us adapting to conditions these days, but the antics of the millions of others out there, expecting to be able to make progress as they have always done, summer or winter.
Towards the end of my bus drivng career [which ended 17 years ago, when I started something new]....instead of hoping we drivers would 'struggle through' to get folk home, to work, etc.......the employer would simply pull every bus off the road at the earliest opportunity. I could see their point, however...by that stage they were private companies, not state-owned services....if a bus got clobbered by some errant motorist in the snow, that bus was 'down for several days, if not weeks....unable to earn its keep.
The snow never lasted long....and the buses were needed when the weather eased....
Although driving has been, and still is, one of my passions....I don't feel the need to simply 'go out and drive around' when the snow falls....like so many I read about. I KNOW how other drivers can make life so difficult for me in such conditions....without doing meaningless journeys to re-inforce that view. It's just disappointing that when there are so many wrecks upside down in hedgerows, few of them have any useful bits to 'salvage.' At least, nothing that works for old cars!
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During the early 1960s, when FWD cars were becoming popular, one of my work-mates bought new RWD car. We were working in the Peak District in the depths of winter and one of the hill roads was slippery with ice. My work-mate tried several times to drive up the hill and failed. Then he had a brainwave and tried reversing up the hill and succeeded. Shortly afterwards the gear lever broke off and he abandoned the car and got a lift home. In those days the cars had a one year guarantee and you had to get a lawyer on side to get the maker to honour it.
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A few winters ago I had to tow a work colleague's Audi S4 out of the icy carpark because all four of his sportily shod rims were spinning on the ice. I was driving a front wheel drive saloon fitted with budget Chinese all season tyres.
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Be careful... I'm not sure this forum can stand yet another supporter of chinese ditchfinders?
:)
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