any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - gordonbennet

After reading a current thread (in legal section) which highlighted another expensive issue about modern Diesel ownership out of warranty, thought it might be interesting to have a list of reasons to but or not buy modern Diesel out of warranty.

The thread itself concerns the thorny and sometimes expensive (engine and car scrapping in extreme cases, A class MB a prime example) of the difficulty of removing glow plugs or injectors when problems develop.

If i was to (doubtful) buy another Diesel, say a 75k miler at 3 years, i think it might be worth running it into a Diesel workshops and get the injectors removed, overhauled/chemically cleaned and reset whilst they're out and new sealing washers fitted, also get the glow plugs removed and replaced, hopefully soon enough, those that will come undone before snapping torque is reached anyway.

This wasn't usually a problem on IDI Diesels, i found those mechanical injectors (whether screw in like oversized spark plugs or clamped) came out easily, as did glow plugs.

Anyway, anyone fancy starting off a for and against list of modern Diesel ownership, out of warranty that is, and what preventative measures you would personally take, if any, to take engine into a long hopefully trouble free life.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - mss1tw

what preventative measures you would personally take, if any, to take engine into a long hopefully trouble free life.

EGR by-pass for a start (Yeah yeah, environment, etc etc etc. Don't care.)

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Simon

I'm not sure that I would call that preventative maintenance in your example, I would class it more.as fixing something that isn't broken. For the cost of having that work done you might as well buy a slightly newer car. You've got to draw a line somewhere and take your chances with whatever you buy.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - balleballe

I do 20k ish miles a year.

I have a 2.0l petrol Mazda. If I get a 2 litre diesel then I save around 1000 a year in fuel.

If I keep the car for 2 years then that's a saving of 2k

The car I'm looking at doesn't have a dog and has a proven engine so let's say that I get unlucky and have to replace the clutch and dmf in my ownership, it's only 600 quid.

Extra maintenance will be a couple of hundred due to more expensive oils/ filters etc..

That would still leave me 1.2k better off in 2 years

That's the only reason I'd consider a diesel out of warranty, it should save me money

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Wackyracer

I tend to be in the prevention rather than cure group so I like your thinking GB.

When I bought the last car, It developed an open circuit glowplug so I changed them all and lightly painted the shanks and threads with some very expensive ceramic grease so the next time they should be no problem to undo.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - daveyK_UK

Remove the dpf, drill out the inside, put it back on, get a car diagnostics expert to change the ecu to stop trying to 're-gen.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - craig-pd130

Personally, I wouldn't do glow plug / injector removal if it wasn't necessary to replace a faulty component. In a petrol car, removing / replacing the spark plugs could lead to stripped threads in the cylinder head (especially with current long service intervals between plug changes), which would be costly to remedy.

I believe the big issue with out-of-warranty ownership of a modern diesel with DPF etc is the longevity of the various pressure and temperature sensors that control DPF regeneration and emissions.

From experience with my previous Volvo V60, if one of these sensors should fail, it can take even a main dealer several attempts to properly diagnose the problem. I had a DPF pressure sensor fail, and it took three trips to the dealer and several days of workshop diangostic time for them to fix the fault.

I had an in-depth chat with the dealer service manager about this, and he told me (subsequently verified on a Volvo forum) that in the Volvo diagnostic system, there is no specific fault code for the DPF sensors. The fault code logged in the ECU relates to the EGR valve.

So the dealer replaced the entire EGR valve and pipework, only for the fault to pop up again. In the end, they had to resort to swapping sensors from a fault-free car one at a time, to identify which component was faulty.

Of course, my car was still under warranty, and I had a courtesy car, so it wasn't really a big problem for me. But if the car was out of warranty, I would have ended paying for several days of workshop time and replacement parts that were not needed before the problem was actually found and fixed.

So it concerns me that even a main dealer, with the proper factory diagnostic computer and software, cannot easily locate a fault. I've no idea if this issue is limited to Volvo, or if the lack of accurate fault codes applies to other marques too.

But based on that experience, I would only own an 3+ year old DPF-equipped diesel on condition of having a warranty that specifically covers the costs of replacing faulty DPF sensors.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Wackyracer

Volvo are not alone in this. I think all the brands have franchises with staff that have little or no diagnostic ability.

I remember some years ago talking to some of the diagnostic companies that sell aftermarket diagnostic equipment and one of them told me that Mercedes worked on a 3 part changing idea that swapped upto 3 parts associated with the symptoms the customer reported and if that didn't cure the problem then they went down the route of trying to diagnose it correctly.

MY sister had a hell of a job trying to get her Focus repaired and in the end just traded it in against something else.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - craig-pd130

Volvo are not alone in this. I think all the brands have franchises with staff that have little or no diagnostic ability.

I remember some years ago talking to some of the diagnostic companies that sell aftermarket diagnostic equipment and one of them told me that Mercedes worked on a 3 part changing idea that swapped upto 3 parts associated with the symptoms the customer reported and if that didn't cure the problem then they went down the route of trying to diagnose it correctly.

Interesting. I'm not sure how much blame lies with the manufacturer's established procedures that dealers have to follow for warranty fixes, and how much with the increasingly complexity of car systems.

Either way, once a customer is out of warranty, these faults can get costly ...

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Trilogy

At the moment I'm toying with the idea of going for a petrol car instead of a diesel when I change. Purely on pollution grounds.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - S40 Man

At the moment I'm toying with the idea of going for a petrol car instead of a diesel when I change. Purely on pollution grounds.

Global or local pollution?

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Trilogy

Both. It is not good in Cambridge.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Engineer Andy

Both. It is not good in Cambridge.

Sounds like a petrol hybrid is in order. They might not be sexy or set our proverbial pants on fire drive-wise, but the good-ol Prius (or equivalent) seems to be a good long term bet for use in congested city centres.

Loads of minicabs in such areas are changing from diesels to petrol-hybrids, especially where city mayors/councils [e.g. London, I wouldn't be surprised if Cambridge does soon as well] put in place congestion charges with reductions/zero rates on low polutting vehicles - especially now that the detremental environmental/health effects of diesel engines have been highlighted.

I also think that the 'boundary' between the long-term economic case for owning a diesel car has shifted upwards nearer to 25k miles pa of medium-long out-of-town journeys given the recent improvements in petrol engines and petrol-hybrids and both's inherrant better reliability than diesels (at least over the past 10 years).

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Avant

There was I think a 'golden age' of diesels between about 1985 and 2005. They were quieter than before - well, a bit, and certainly quieter than the Perkins Prima or that wonderful 1950s two-stroke Commer lorry - and glowpug warming time had come down to a few seconds. And there weren't all the 3-letter acronyms which were installed allegedly for the sake of the environment but which tend to fail expensively at higher mileages.

SWMBO had two Peugeot 205 diesels - lovely cars which were livelier than the petrols (other than the GTI of course) and much easier to start when hot. She had a 206 too - generally a disappointment but the engine was the one good thing about it.

Yes, you save money in theory with a secondhand diesel - particularly if you avoid pasying more for it than you would have done for a petrol - but it's a gamble which I don't think I'd take.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Hamsafar

When my DPF expired, I had it hollowed out - that was a few years ago.
Had it happened these days, I may be tempted to get a new one as they are only ~£300 each - I paid about that for hollowing out and reflash ECU as at the time a DPF was dealer only and just shy of £2000. It's basically the same story we had with petrols and catalytic convertors in the late 1990s...people had them hollowed out or replaced with a pipe because they were £1000 and many cars had no lambda probe after the cat or anything like that, nowadays they are sometimes less than £100.

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - coopshere
The writings on the wall for Diesel engined cars. Regulators are making it harder for manufacturers to comply with emission output. Manufacturers are increasingly turning to small petrol turbo or hybrid engines with greatly improved fuel consumption because of this. Taxation is likely to change on diesel fuel and diesel engined cars in the not too distant future. As fleet owners start to buy petrol engined cars instead the residual values of diesels will plummet so that only those choosing to buy bargain basement cars will buy them. A private owner using their own money would be mad to buy a new/nearly new diesel engined car unless they were loaded with money. Add the reliability factor in and diesel is dead.
any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Jag_Bri

August this year I had a dodgy glow plug on a Diesel Vauxhall Corsa and took it to the Vauxhall dealer, the mechanic that usually fixes and services my cars said I needed Vauxhall to get the correct codes as it was a 2010 tech2. The service manager at the VAuxhall dealer said that it would be £200 BUT if the glow plug is stuck and cant be removed easily it could get up to nearly £1,000 !!! the car had covered 120,000 miles, luckily the glow plug was fixed for just under £200..

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Alby Back
No doubt diesel engines can be expensive when they go wrong and that's the gamble, but if you do a high mileage the fuel cost savings are still significant.

Then there's the "if" they go wrong bit. I've run two consecutive Mondeo TDCi estates each to nigh on 200,000 with no reliability related problems at all. Total unforseen expenditure ( ie other than normal servicing items, tyres, brakes etc ) was two headlamp bulbs. I've run a diesel Qashqai to 80,000 without any grief and my current car, which I've had from new, is a 3.5 year old Merc E Class diesel estate which has now covered 111,000 without problems.

The fuel cost saving I've benefitted from on all those cars by having diesels is huge and thankfully they haven't generated any unforeseen bills but even if one of them had cost something I'm sure I'd still be ahead.
any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - madf

Our 11 year old Toyota Yaris d4d has been faultkess for the nine years we have owned it apart from the battery which died last year...

any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Alby Back
Come to think, in the last 20 something or so years, I've been "lucky" not to have any problems with, a diesel Xantia, 4 diesel Mondeos, a diesel Galaxy, a diesel Qashqai and a diesel Merc. I did have many problems with a diesel Espace but then it was, after all, a Renault. The only other car to let me down was a petrol Signum which was, after all, a Vauxhall.



any make - Diesel versus petrol ownership...out of warranty - Trilogy

Engineer Andy, I really need an estate, budget £1,500 or less.. Might go for an older Passat as these can run on recycled veg oil. Otherwise will see if I can find an lpg estate