Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - argybargy

Hi all

Changed the front pads and discs on my son's 59 plate Fiesta 1.4 on Saturday afternoon.

In the past, and having read posts on this and other forums where contributors have stated that they've done many a pad and disc change without bleeding the system and never flipped the seals, I've simply opened the cap on the master cylinder to release excess pressure when the pistons are pushed in to accommodate the new pads. However, for once I decided to take note of Haynes's recommendation that the brakes should be bled at the wheels whilst pushing in the pistons.

Thing is, on the first wheel I forgot to follow the Haynes instructions and clamp the hose before opening the bleed screw and pushing in the piston (on the second wheel I didn't repeat that omission). I opened the bleed screw, but probably not enough to release all the displaced fluid.

After taking the car for a test drive--the braking was fine--I checked and found that the master cylinder was so full that fluid was actually leaking from the cap. I carefully removed excess fluid down to the MAX level, but my question is this: can temporarily overpressurising the system in this way do any lasting harm?

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - dadbif
No
Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - argybargy

Your directness and brevity is much appreciated. Thank you.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - gordonbennet

I doubt you've done any harm Argy.

I seldom if ever open the bleed valves when pushing the pistons back carefully and gently, and in 40 odd years of working on brakes both diy and (years ago) kerbside cowboying i've never had a single instance of seal flipping or other problem...though if working on a neglected system with mucky fluid full of crud likely to have been in place donkey's years, then not allowing such muck to go back up the system would make sense.

The problem with opening the bleed valve is that unless you get everything absolutely right its easy to introduce air into the caliper this way, though slipping a tight fitting clear tube onto the bleed nipple whilst doing so means you can observe better whats happening and so lessen the chances of it happening...plus direct spillage better into a bowl.

For the average car user, fitting new pads/discs is as good a time as any to flush the whole system through with fresh fluid, and if doing that you might as well open the bleed valves to push the pistons back as any air is going to be expelled anyway...it only takes two minutes with an assistant to pump the system for you whilst you're down there (other possibly better bleeding methods are available and don't wish an argument about that).

Edited by gordonbennet on 04/11/2014 at 07:28

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - Bolt

I doubt you've done any harm Argy.

I seldom if ever open the bleed valves when pushing the pistons back carefully and gently, and in 40 odd years of working on brakes both diy and (years ago) kerbside cowboying i've never had a single instance of seal flipping or other problem...though if working on a neglected system with mucky fluid full of crud likely to have been in place donkey's years, then not allowing such muck to go back up the system would make sense.

The problem with opening the bleed valve is that unless you get everything absolutely right its easy to introduce air into the caliper this way, though slipping a tight fitting clear tube onto the bleed nipple whilst doing so means you can observe better whats happening and so lessen the chances of it happening...plus direct spillage better into a bowl.

You can still get air passing the thread,so like you, I never open the valve unless I had to,plus the risk of sheering it off (painfull) which I did once never again.

Valves dont have to be corroded to shear off, they can be just too tight!

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - bathtub tom

You didn't 'overpressurise' the system mearly displaced fluid back to the master cylinder by pushing back the caliper piston.

I don't like undoing the bleed screw when pushing back the pistons, as air can be introduced via the thread. I may have to learn to though, as I accept it's possible to 'flip' the seals on the master cylinder and may not do the ABS pump a lot of good by reversing the flow.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - madf

I ALWAYS clamp teh brake flexi and undo the bleed nipples before changing pads.

But as I know we;; in advance of doing it, I will know I have serviced the car before - so it will be OK or if not:

I spray the threads with Comma rust easer (NOT WD40) at least 2 days before. Then when undoing, if there is ANY sign of the screws binding I work them backwards and forwards to remove rust. When the pads are changed, I fully unscrew the bleed nipple and lightly copperease the outer section of the thread furthest away from the fluid. I then tighten gently, bleed the brakes as normal.. and leave.

There is no risk of the copperease contaminating brake fluid and the copperease prevents further rusting.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - skidpan

Never found it necessary to clamp brake hoses and loosen the bleed nipple before pushing (or screwing) the brake pistons back in and never had a problem.

In fact on the Caterham this would not be possible since the braided brake hoses would be impossible to clamp and would probably be damaged by doing that. And its not just Caterham that fit braided hoses.

As for the level of fluid in the master cylinder rising i simply remove the lid and using a syringe remove a little when the fluid rises.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - Railroad.

Never found it necessary to clamp brake hoses and loosen the bleed nipple before pushing (or screwing) the brake pistons back in and never had a problem.

You've obviously never changed front brake pads on a Vauxhall Astra F then?
Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - Cyd

You didn't 'overpressurise' the system mearly displaced fluid back to the master cylinder by pushing back the caliper piston.

I don't like undoing the bleed screw when pushing back the pistons, as air can be introduced via the thread. I may have to learn to though, as I accept it's possible to 'flip' the seals on the master cylinder and may not do the ABS pump a lot of good by reversing the flow.

Some years ago one of my colleagues in the chassis department who deals with brake systems explicitly warned me against pumping fluid 'backwards' through any system fitted with ABS. It can cause damage - though I'm afraid I can no longer remember the technical details.

In any case, why would you want to push old, degraded, possibly dirty and wet (water content) fluid back up into the system?

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - skidpan

In any case, why would you want to push old, degraded, possibly dirty and wet (water content) fluid back up into the system?

The fluid in your calipers should be no older, more degraded, dirtier or have a higher water content than the brake fluid elsewhere in the system.

If you suspect the fluid is in that condition the system needs bleeding.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - madf

In any case, why would you want to push old, degraded, possibly dirty and wet (water content) fluid back up into the system?

The fluid in your calipers should be no older, more degraded, dirtier or have a higher water content than the brake fluid elsewhere in the system.

If you suspect the fluid is in that condition the system needs bleeding.

Err the fluid in calipers ios usually balck with dirt from the pistons and bits of rubber from the seals... And water gets into teh fluid either from teh filler cap or from around the seals...

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - skidpan

Err the fluid in calipers ios usually balck with dirt from the pistons and bits of rubber from the seals... And water gets into teh fluid either from teh filler cap or from around the seals...

Precisely so bleed to whole system rather than just bleeding a little out when you push the psitons pack with the nipples open.

But if water is getting in around the seals the calipers need refurbishing. If the seals are falling apart the calipers need refurbishing.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - Cyd

But if water is getting in around the seals the calipers need refurbishing.

Water in the form of VAPOUR passes through all the rubber components into the fluid directly adjacent and spreads through the fluid from there. Same at the reservoir cap which is, of course, vented.

It is for this reason that all OEs specify a brake fluid change interval, usually between 2 and 4 years. Shell manufacture a high quality, long life fluid which has a greater resistance to the effects of moisture absorbtion. Some OEs fit this fluid in production.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - argybargy

Probably the last time I'll be doing my son's Fiesta because I think he plans to sell it shortly. I'll be selling my 2007 Focus in January and buying nearly new Fiesta with low miles (hopefully), so might not be working on brakes again for some considerable time.

However, its still been a fascinating discussion which no doubt applies in principle to all popular cars, and thanks to all.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - argybargy

Just one other point: I note the advice about "working" the bleed screws one way then the other, after applying copper ease to make them easier to remove. Is it feasible (or indeed advisable) to remove them completely, clean the threads up with a wire brush then put them back?

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - madf

Just one other point: I note the advice about "working" the bleed screws one way then the other, after applying copper ease to make them easier to remove. Is it feasible (or indeed advisable) to remove them completely, clean the threads up with a wire brush then put them back?

Yes if you clamp the hoses or all the fluid will drain out. You also need to take EXTREME care to prevent rust, oil or grease from entering the open hole when the nipple was. So clean around the outside first with great care.. and plug the hole with clean thick paper towel (Scott's blue is ideal)..

Personally I never do: just uncrew a few turns and use a copper wire brush to clean up the threads which are visible. Far less risk of dirt entry.

Ford Fiesta 1.4, 59 plate - Brake fluid level following disc and pad change. - Cyd

I've done this myself. As Mad says, make sure the area around the nipple is scrupilously clean before complete removal. I usually wire brush, followed by plenty of brake cleaner. I use a small screw to plug the hole usually without clamping the pipe - any fluid flow out of the caliper should prevent any dirt going the other way.