Enough with progress - pullgees

As we know any make of car is a global clone, any one model fits the entire planet. The engineering and electronics in cars are so sophisticated - okay for the metropolitan rich. So how on earth do they manage to maintain and cope with breakdowns in third world countries where the supprt structure is few and far between and even if in the cities no help in remote places hundreds of miles away? You can't plug a lap top in in the middle of the bush somewhere.

Edited by pullgees on 14/07/2014 at 17:16

Enough with progress - gordonbennet

Isn't this why you see lots of Hilux/Landcruiser/Patrol etc in middle of nowhere.

When i was still on the cars i used to visit the ports of Southampton, Tilbury, Sheerness regularly among others, on these ports particularly you could see rows of good used cars waiting for returning cargo/car transporting ships...good stuff went in shed loads to Africa, things like Landcruiser Colorados, Shoguns and Volvo 850's etc were common sights, didn't see too much modern German or French offerings in the lines though except for 406's, many hundreds of the better old school Mercs had already been shipped out to far east during the late 80s, the company i worked for had regular contracts for that.

Enough with progress - Wackyracer

I think you'll find that there are cars in the world that we never get to see here in the UK.

Cars built for specific market and home market, We occasionally see a few 'grey imports' which are built purely for the Japanese home market.

As for needing diagnostic tools to repair cars, That is mainly a trick used by manufacturers to force people into taking their car to a franchised dealer. I remember looking at Mercedes diagnostic tools. They would sell you a Mercedes tool but, it would not do all the operations that the tool they supply to the franchised dealers could do.

Edited by Wackyracer on 14/07/2014 at 19:09

Enough with progress - pullgees

Isn't this why you see lots of Hilux/Landcruiser/Patrol etc in middle of nowhere.

When i was still on the cars i used to visit the ports of Southampton, Tilbury, Sheerness regularly among others, on these ports particularly you could see rows of good used cars waiting for returning cargo/car transporting ships...good stuff went in shed loads to Africa, things like Landcruiser Colorados, Shoguns and Volvo 850's etc were common sights, didn't see too much modern German or French offerings in the lines though except for 406's, many hundreds of the better old school Mercs had already been shipped out to far east during the late 80s, the company i worked for had regular contracts for that.

Of course you will see an abundance of 4x4s yet even these are very complex machines today, they are just more reliable for the terrain. I'm not talking about off road travelling - there are plenty of unsealed roads all over the world in remote place even Australia, where saloon cars can easily travel.
In the middle East for example saloon cars are sold in the millions and there are plenty of isolated areas there.. I know Arabs are pretty good at make do and mends, I've seen them take truck engines apart in the middle of nowhere but when it come to computer tech what do they do then?

Enough with progress - gordonbennet

My last Landcruiser didn't have a computer, it was entirely mechanical, not really a design for Europe at all, but unbreakable, as SWMBO proved when she redesigned some steel railings including uprooting the concrete foundations at 50mph, which still failed to make the vehicle undriveable, she shoved it four wheel drive and simply reversed through the battlefield to extract herself, and Toyota still made them like that until very recently (might even make the 70 series now for special order) but known as troop carrier..

What it did have was every single electrical relay or similar part had stamped on it what it was, eg Glow PLug Relay 12v, thats how you design a vehicle to be fixed in the field, could be fixed in a blacksmiths...indeed that model was shipped in crates to Australian salt mines, assembled underground and spent their whole long lives there.

Later Landcruisers, eg the 100 Amazon as supplied here from around 1998 to 2011 fitted with a lifting tailgate electrically controlled air suspension all round and IFS isn't found in hostile areas, they get the 105 model instead, same shape but has the good old barn rear doors and steel springs and dampers all round, and a live front axle, just like its 80's forebear the 80 series, first used on the last of the 70 series...if it aint broke don't fix it applies there.

I suspect as said above that the vehicles used in such areas are nothing like the electronic junk shipped here to relieve us of mucho wonga and designed with a short and expensive life in order to relieve of us even more, that applies as much to cars as it does off road stuff.

Edited by gordonbennet on 14/07/2014 at 20:16

Enough with progress - pullgees

Edited by pullgees on 14/07/2014 at 19:39

Enough with progress - focussed

As well as an fn3 diesel Civic and and an L200 classic shape, both including lots of electrickery, I own two motorbikes. One is a BMW R 1100 S which has the usual fairly low-tech Motronic injection because it's pre-canbus, and a Yamaha FJR 1300A.

The Yamaha has an LCD screen which displays fuel level, coolant temperature, gear position, odometer, trip meter etc. It also has the facility, without using any fancy tools, to display and cancel fault codes for all the ecu and sender functions, the abs stored codes,cycle and operate and test the abs, adjust the injector CO levels, and test the throttle postion sender voltage output and probably a few other functions that I have forgotten.

All this is achieved by manipulating the dashboard select and reset buttons, the ignition switch, and for some of the functions the safety cut-out switch and start buttons in various timed sequences. The abs test requires access to a shorting link in the loom under the dash which can be activated by a paper clip.

If this can be incorporated in a 2006 motorcycle - why can't it be built into modern cars?

Enough with progress - Wackyracer

All this is achieved by manipulating the dashboard select and reset buttons, the ignition switch, and for some of the functions the safety cut-out switch and start buttons in various timed sequences. The abs test requires access to a shorting link in the loom under the dash which can be activated by a paper clip.

If this can be incorporated in a 2006 motorcycle - why can't it be built into modern cars?

Probably because then people with some ability could repair and maintain their cars for many years without having to go to the dealership which would mean their car was not worth the cost of repairing.

Enough with progress - Sofa Spud

There were probably people who said 'enough with progress' in 1911. It's a good job nobody who mattered listened to them!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 15/07/2014 at 14:30

Enough with progress - thunderbird

If we had not progressed we would still be chasing wild animals with a rock for dinner instead of posting messages on an intenet forum using a personal computer (or other similar device).

I say progress is good. My first car was only 9 years old when I bought it and was total carp compared to a 9 year old car today. The body would not have passed even a cursory glance at an MOT station and mechanically, although resonably sound) took forever to start even on a decent morning.

The brakes needed a few days notice and the coil spring clutch was so heavy that I still have an over developed left leg.

The steering was only manageable since the tyres were the same width as a modern mountain bike but had all the accuracy of a boat tiller.

So if its clubbing animals to death or driving a modern car I know which I will settle for.

Enough with progress - Wackyracer

There is progress and then there is unnecessary complicated solutions to problems that did not exist.

I'm not a ludite but, I just think sometimes the old addage "if it ain't broke...." seems to make the most sense.

Enough with progress - madf

My personal experience of electric.electronic additions is one of increasing reliability.. Electric windows in the 1980s were occasionally slow or failed: now they are 100% reliable.

Of course if you bought a mid 2000s Renault that is not true. Or a Range Rover with air suspension..Or an early 2000s Peugeot..

But most cars have great electronics..

I assume the OP will revert to an IBM PC instead of a modern laptop or a simple mobile phone?

Thought not.

Enough with progress - Trilogy

My personal experience of electric.electronic additions is one of increasing reliability.. Electric windows in the 1980s were occasionally slow or failed: now they are 100% reliable.

.

Not the case with VAG electric windows. The regulators on all 4 windows failed on my 1998 Octavia. Unforgivable for a company like VAG and one of the main reasons why I might never buy another one of their cars.

Enough with progress - Andrew-T

There is progress and then there is unnecessary complicated solutions to problems that did not exist.

On balance I agree. Picking up madf's point about electric windows - they are nice to have, but not really essential. If one fails, you are stuck, or at least the window is. If it wasn't electric, you just turned the handle a bit harder (till it broke, I suppose).

These days, cars are stuffed full of gismos, some of whose purpose is little more than to go wrong and cost a fortune to fix. Each new model has to have more, so has to be a bit larger. It's all very clever stuff, and it keeps people in jobs, but necessary? I'm not sure.

Enough with progress - madf

The Allegro in 1973? was fitted with electric screen washers. A novelty. Most cars had a hand pump at teh time. Guess what? The pump on mine failed - when 3 months old.

Who worries about electric screenwashers failing now?

No-one..

Enough with progress - mark999

The Allegro in 1973? was fitted with electric screen washers. A novelty. Most cars had a hand pump at teh time. Guess what? The pump on mine failed - when 3 months old.

Who worries about electric screenwashers failing now?

No-one..

Waiting for MOT test last week they had an 03 Honda Jazz in with a failed washer pump. Lasted a bit longer than 3 months.

Mark

Enough with progress - Wackyracer

There was probably a blockage and they just kept pressing and burned out the pump. I've done a few of them where that has happened.

Enough with progress - pullgees

There is progress and then there is unnecessary complicated solutions to problems that did not exist.

I'm not a ludite but, I just think sometimes the old addage "if it ain't broke...." seems to make the most sense.

My point exactly. The title of this thread was just an eye catcher which some took literally. Many lurkers who join in late don't bother to start from the top.
And really it was the more impverished countries that prompted me to start this thread. How do drivers cope with all electronic sophistication and an ever commanding central processor - the ecu - where they haven't got infrastucture to fix these machins when they break down?

Enough with progress - mss1tw

My point exactly. The title of this thread was just an eye catcher which some took literally. Many lurkers who join in late don't bother to start from the top.
And really it was the more impverished countries that prompted me to start this thread. How do drivers cope with all electronic sophistication and an ever commanding central processor - the ecu - where they haven't got infrastucture to fix these machins when they break down?

Do they though? i know we scrap them here but maybe they just get melted down rather than shipped away.

Mean while the 'knackered' old mechanical cars sent to far flung places are still plodding on.

Enough with progress - Wackyracer

That is the thing, Alot of these traders that export cars to other countries have a good knowledge of what vehicles are desirable there.

I remember talking to such an exporter while he was waiting for an old Mitsubishi van to be MOT'ed so he could drive it to the docks, He said these old vans were in demand and he was going to fill it with spare parts too that he had taken from old wrecks he had bought for next to nothing.

Enough with progress - pullgees

That is the thing, Alot of these traders that export cars to other countries have a good knowledge of what vehicles are desirable there.

I remember talking to such an exporter while he was waiting for an old Mitsubishi van to be MOT'ed so he could drive it to the docks, He said these old vans were in demand and he was going to fill it with spare parts too that he had taken from old wrecks he had bought for next to nothing.

Interesting, but there will come a time when even wrecks cant go on any longer. Well maybe Cuba's the exception where they might fit a Lada engine into a 1956 Desoto.

Enough with progress - mss1tw

That is the thing, Alot of these traders that export cars to other countries have a good knowledge of what vehicles are desirable there.

I remember talking to such an exporter while he was waiting for an old Mitsubishi van to be MOT'ed so he could drive it to the docks, He said these old vans were in demand and he was going to fill it with spare parts too that he had taken from old wrecks he had bought for next to nothing.

Interesting, but there will come a time when even wrecks cant go on any longer. Well maybe Cuba's the exception where they might fit a Lada engine into a 1956 Desoto.

Well if we're talking about ripping out engines and shoe horning any old lump in, then modern cars (well the bodyshells and steering/suspension at least) can be kept going indefintely too.

Enough with progress - veryoldbear

Ah, a bit like my Saab 2.2tid estate ...