FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

Hi,
I've been having a starting problem on my diesel Fiat Grande Punto 1.3 (08 reg, 64k) for a while now. I am not sure where the problem's roots lie, so will try to describe things in detail and hope for advice.

For some time after bying I started the car without waiting 10 sec for the glow plug light to go out. My mistake (first car; no diesel experience before). Corrected my mistake after some time, no warnings developed while I was starting incorrectly.

After some weeks the glow plug warning started flashing for about 15-20 sec after start, but starting was fine. Checked with a garage, they found code P0683 (pre-heat error) and said in most cases it's a harmless ECU error and I should not worry unless problems develop. Drove for 2 months with no problem.

Then starting became more difficult with colder weather: it took more time, there was more and more white smoke. Went to the garage again, they found same code P0683, and checked glow plugs. One plug was shorting internally and causing controller to overload and cut-out. When replacing the plug, one was snapped; one seized but working; two were replaced for new ones. I needed the car urgently so had to collect it from there.

Drove a couple of weeks on 3 plugs (2 new, one old). The car started great, but warning light continued. Same code (P0683).

I wanted to see the problem to the end, so a specialised engineer drilled out the broken plug and the seized one without removing the head; and put 2 new plugs in. All plugs have now been changed. All plugs checked for current and seem to be working correctly.

However, the problem with starting is back: it takes 10-15 sec of spinning to start (sometimes takes 2 attemts), and there is a cloud of white smoke when it finally fires off. Same warning flashes for about 20-30 sec after starting (P0683). Once or twice it started without smoke or spinning, but that is very rare. Once started, the car runs beautifully, no alien sound, full engine power.

Any ideas or advice?

My questions are along these lines:
1. I am surprised that before drilling the car started way better on three plugs than now on all four. Could this outcome be caused by some mistake in the drilling, say cylinders got affected? Or in that case symptoms would be more severe (loss of power, alien sound, etc.) Should I take it as a coincidence with some other problem getting worse?

2. If it's not the glow plugs, what could it be? Electrical? GPCM? The flashing glow plug light leads me to suspect something is still wrong there... What should I get checked next?

3. Could this somehow be a consequence of me starting the car in a wrong way in my first month after bying? What are the possible problems caused by such a start?

4. Could it be a problem with the battery in some way? Say, it gives weak charge to glow plugs? I had a battery go flat once when I was away for 6 weeks and had to jump start it. But I am driving actively these days, and the starting problem is there.

Would appreciate any advice!

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - gordonbennet

I'd be inclined to buy a good set of new glow plugs, as noted in another thread Beru are a well respected make, and put them in...whilst the plugs are out connect each plug to its own connector and hold the plug against the engine block with pliers, switch on ignition and physically watch each plug glow red continually, watch out they hold heat for a while.

I've known people buy glow plugs from various sources and they've failed in very short order, as little as 6 months in some cases.

This also usefully tests the wiring to each plug.

You can test your old plugs by 'hot' wiring them with a set of jump leads, any good ones keep as spares.

Course it would be cheaper to physically test each plug and only replace any faulty ones, but i'd be inclined to replace the lot unless you know they were all of good supply.

I suspect the glow plug light is flashing because not enough current is being drawn as one or more of the plugs isn't working correctly.

edit...nothing wrong with how you were starting the car by the way, giving it 10 seconds to pre heat won't do any harm.

Edited by gordonbennet on 23/04/2014 at 13:41

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - madf

Glow plug controller.

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

Glow plug controller.

Is there an easy way to check it if the garage does not have a spare one to put in and try? The suggestion I heard from the garage is buy a new one (costs about 80 quid?) and see whether it solves things.

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

So a test of current and resistence of glow plugs without taking them out would not show this? I am a bit concerned about taking them out again, especially the ones that needed drilling-out.

The plugs were supplied by two garages, so they may be of different make (the first garage put in 2, and the engineer put in 2). When the engineer completed the job, he tested the current and said all four were functioning properly. That was 1 week ago, and the oldest glow plugs now are 3-4 weeks old only. You say 'as little as 6 months' - surely the new glow plugs should still be operational?

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - gordonbennet

Ah, didn't realise this was so recent, i assumed for some reason that this happened before the winter, quite why i thought that i haven't a clue, apologies.

You can check the current draw, but will need a serious ammeter to do so, IIRC each glow plug draws about 15/20 amps, so looking at an 60/80 amp ammeter to check with, and you really need to test a single glow plug to work out if all 4 are drawing current the same.

I used to keep an old Lucas ammeter from a 70s scrap car for jobs such as this, wouldn't handle all the plugs but for checking single ones was perfect, plugs left in situ it was a case of removing the feed wire and hot wiring each plug in turn.

Follow up on Madf's suggestion at the same time, when checking the current drawn see when the control unit shuts off.

Edited by gordonbennet on 23/04/2014 at 17:08

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - dieselnut

The OP has said this is an 08 car so will almost certainly be a DI diesel. It won't need the glow plugs to start with the present temperatures, but they wil be activated to reduce emissions. These emissions would barely be seen by eye.

So I think you have a basic problem that isn't due to the glow plugs themselves.

The engineer may have done some damage to cylinders during his drilling or maybee the plugs arn't sealing properly. If so there may be some deposits from around the plug threads.

I would take it to a diesel specialist & get them to do a compression test, & if ok then check the injectors.

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - RobJP

OP - have you had the car battery checked ? Turning over and starting a diesel engine requires a lot of power from cold. If the battery is struggling, that could explain the long startup, and if you've then got loads of unburnt diesel in the cylinders, the large amount of smoke.

Always worth checking. Batteries do have a lifespan, and they can either fail outright, or die slowly.

Regarding whether you've caused this by your actions in the first month or 2 - I very much doubt it. Pretty sure any of us who've had diesels in the past have done that plenty of times

Edited by RobJP on 24/04/2014 at 11:28

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

OP - have you had the car battery checked ? Turning over and starting a diesel engine requires a lot of power from cold. If the battery is struggling, that could explain the long startup, and if you've then got loads of unburnt diesel in the cylinders, the large amount of smoke.

Got the battery checked today. Was told the battery is not brilliant, but good. Service test print-out says: Good - Recharge. Voltage: 12.48V, measured 291 A(EN). Rated 360 A(EN), temp 30'. They advised to take the battery off and charge overnight and see what it shows then.

In the past week I drove about 200 miles on it, so I don't expect it to be flat. A month ago, before I went to the drilling specialist, the car waited for me at the airport for 2 weeks, and started without hesitation - so combined with the flashing glow plug light, I suspect it should not be the battery (though it may need replacing soon too)

Edited by Dmi on 24/04/2014 at 17:42

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi
The engineer may have done some damage to cylinders during his drilling or maybee the plugs arn't sealing properly. If so there may be some deposits from around the plug threads.

I would take it to a diesel specialist & get them to do a compression test, & if ok then check the injectors.

Thanks. If this is the problem, wouldn't there also be loss of power? Couple of times the car started well - if there is a compression problem, would the car be consistently bad to start? How would it start when warm?

I only suspect problems in the glow plug circuit because of the continuing error with the relevant code. But as far as I understand yes, in this weather the glow plugs shouldn't really be making a difference to starting...

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - dieselnut

On a diesel the heat generated by compressing the air in the cylinder is what ignites the fuel. In very cold weather the glow plugs will assist.

When the engine is cold the cylinder walls take away some of this heat making starting more difficult. A loss of compression exacerbates the problem & can lead to unburnt fuel coming out the exhaust as white smoke. Within a few seconds of running the cylinder should warm up enough to start working.

If the engine is already warm, the cylinder, even though down on compression will probably fire up cleanly.

There will be a slight loss of power but probably not enough to be noticable, & will depend if only one, or more cylinders are affected.

You havn't been through flood water recently have you.

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

You havn't been through flood water recently have you.

No, nothing of that kind. Thanks for the details.

Just another question: if it is a compression problem in 1, max 2 cylinders (two were drilled), would the car be always bad to start on cold? Here we currently have about 8-10C in the morning, so there is not much temperature fluctuation. However, starting takes anywhere from 5 to (mostly) 15-20 sec on cold.

If glow plugs indeed seal badly, is that a problem which needs urgent care?

Also, any danger/extra caution in taking out the glow plugs in the cylinders which were drilled?

And could anyone comment on the battery readings above? i just think it's not the battery because between repairs it started brilliantly, even after 2 weeks idle.

I will get the compression and GPCM checks next week. Thanks!

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - dieselnut

If it is a compression problem, the colder the engine & incomming air, the harder it will be to start.

If the engine is turning over strongly after 20 seconds of cranking I would think your battery is probably good.

If the repaired glow plug threads arn't sealing properly that could be a cause of your lost compression, but would expect some sign of deposits around the threads or worse.

Removing glow plugs is a question of feel. If they don't turn smoothly as you undo them, work then in/out a little at a a time with some WD40. Then use some copper grease on the threads before putting them back.

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - Dmi

Got the problem checked today at a good garage. And it's worse than I thought.

One of the drilled glow plugs is shorting badly. When the current check is carried out - there's a fountain of sparks, and the short circuit effectively knocks out the glow plug relay immediately. There is an apparent mistake done in the drilling: the glow plug is at wrong angle. The specialist that looked at it said it was a real mess, and the plug looks cracked/broken beyond the tip, and the tip may have fallen into the cylinder. So it is most likely I will need a new cylinder. We decided I'll take it back to the engineer and see how he fixes/compensates for it.

Advice?

As I understand, that is an apparent mistake in the drilling - so whoever did the job now should have a responsibility to get it right?

Edited by Dmi on 13/05/2014 at 12:46

FIAT Grande Punto - Fiat GPunto starting problem, glow plugs - jc2

You won't need a new cylinder-it'll be a new head at least if not a whole engine!