Its all relative....
A BMW driver who buys a Alfa Romeo will be dissapointed with the rattles/squeaks and lower build standards but someone who previously drove Kia's will think the Alfa is quality craftmanship.
80's Peugeots were considerably better built than Fords/Vauxhalls, but there is not much in it these days.
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Agreed that JD Power type surveys are fairly meaningless, but you can't ignore the large amount of objective data from breakdown organisations and warranty claims plus more subjective forums like this. Can you convince me that, on the whole, french and italian cars are as well built and engineered as japanese ones? I mean really convince, with objective not subjective , evidence?
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It's very difficult, I guess. The warranty claims surveys are obviously the most objective, but even they have their problems. Some manufacturers have more cars on the road than others (so more warranty claims), the customer profiles of some vehicles mean that they are mostly bought privately, others go into fleets and so on. The point is that the life a car has, and the kind of owner it has, can affect warranty claims. Plus some expensive warranty claims are for relatively trivial faults so that skews it too. I just think it's extremely difficult to say this is better built than that without intimate knowledge of the production and quality control process.
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I quite liked a Toad defending a Frog but i have to say that you would argue your corner until your pink furry dice fell off Chris. What your saying is that no information such as warranty claims, road reviews, consumer feedback should be allowed to colour our opinion of a car, even if everyone says it is a dog.
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No mate, just that we have to see them for what they are and take them all together along with our own observations. But it's daft to dismiss good cars just because "the word is" the build quality is bad.
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In the blue corner we have...............
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Great thread - there's been too much consensus lately...
I think I'm with Chris on this one.
The sheer subjectivity of it all makes assessment by survey or warranty reports difficult, even if the information does allow you to compare apples with apples - which they seldom do.
Besides, we will forgive cars we enjoy almost anything. Put us in one we don't like and as soon as the key's out we're telling anyone who will listen what a dog it is!
Coming from the other angle a terrific reliability reputation makes squat difference if you can't stand the look or drive of it.
Practicality and reliability? Pah! We'd all be driving Corollas and, no offence but I'd rather remove my own gall bladder! I don't care how reliable it is.
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I'm not sure why I'm stepping back into this madness (but it does give me the opportunity to confirm that I am not a particular proponent of JD Power, it has its flaws), but Steve S and others here, can I ask what criteria do you take into account when say drawing up a shortlist before you spend precious time and shoe leather tracking down and studying particular vehicles in the flesh?
I didn't get a sensible answer to what I thought was a fairly precise and innocuous question before - what is the advantage of disregarding information if it's freely available and is independent of the manufacturer/dealer?
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NWS,
Easy one mate - I'd shortlist according to those I'd seen around that took my fancy (within budget, of course).
Then I'd make sure those on the list conformed to any minimum requirements re-seating and space. Then get in and drive 'em.
Err, that's it.
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And what about ensuring it was a nice pretty colour too - you forgot that one. I bet the dealers rub their hands with glee when you come knocking.
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If you're serious, I just avoid colours that would be difficult to sell on. Dealers don't like me any more or less than anyone else who's buying - whether they spend time comparing stats or comparing cars.
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The simple fact is that Chris is broadly correct.
How folks see their cars has a huge impact on their reputation. The factor of ownership profiles and brand loyalty does come into it a great deal.
I have a modest database on this PC of various vehicle service/repair records going back some ten years and I'm unbiased as to the various makes because I don't own them.
I can tell you for a fact that folks don't report the full truth "down the pub" when talking about their vehicle.
For example the most expensive disaster on my "fleet" was described by the owner after he had sold it as "not too bad at all".
What!....it was a complete dog!
Just to take a final example I was working on a 1994 Cavalier 16V the other day when a guy called for some underbonnet advice on his new (100 miles recorded) Volvo Estate TDi. They both happened to be the same colour and frankly up close you couldn't say which car was which from the way components were made and paint/interior quality. No way could you say they were chalk and cheese.
But this guy has always wanted a "Volvo" and now he's got a "Volvo" so he's very happy, nothing wrong in that as long as he sees a quality difference in line with the extra he paid to get a "Volvo".
MM
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Could it be that those that don't like the JD power survey, drive cars that don't come very high in it ?
The survey is about satisfaction, if you don't like it you don't have to read it.
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Keep redaing these thread titles and thinking yuo're on about Tiny Blur and his merry band..hehe
FRench vehicles did not always like to be like this. I think of those redoubtable Peugeot taxis, 504's/404/s which are to be found hammering along the remotest tracks in remotest Egypt/Africa/Jordan desert carry three generations of families along with their household effects plus a coupe of relatives on the roof. Then those beat up heaps with villainous gap-toothed drivers that pick up you at Beirut airport and make Bullitt look like a pussy as they hammer downtown in those old Peugeots, not one of 'em a day less than 20.
If I recall Peugeots were always among the winners of those African rallies too. But I admit, I look at the object with the same badge my nephew in UK is driving, and can only say I wouldn't touch the thing. Always going wrong.
Seems won't be long before Mercs go the same way. Last decent one they made was the Stuttgart taxi, don't care what yer say.
Sad.
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Phoney Blur's got enough on his plate at the moment, I think...
The nice thing about the old Peugeots was that they were relatively simple and tough, yet had an excellent ride. There's still a lot to be said for an in-line drive train and live axle, and of course the cars Growler refers to pre-date any fancy engine management, fuel injection pumps, cam belts and catalysers, so there was a lot less to go wrong (and it was usually fixable if it did).
There seems to be an 'all cars are the same now' school of thought abroad, but one should remember that the devil is in the detail, and all car parts are not the same. Some engines are more durable than others (look up 'Nikasil' if you doubt this!) and there are any number of other factors to consider - even if they're all put together by robots and made from the same materials, some cars will simply work better than others. And that's before you take personal opinion into account!
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Keep on running down French cars! They are absolute rubbish! In that way I can continue buying Cits that are very cheap and yet I can add to the 15 years that I have owned them without yet suffering (touch wood!!) one breakdown! They are obviously total carp and suffer immense depreciation in the first three years so that they cost b***er all to buy second hand. Long may it continue as long as there are a few mugs buying new so I can buy their 2 or three year old cast offs, run them for a couple of hundred thousand miles, and then sell them on having enjoyed a top of the range model (admittedly of a rubbish car!). Those diesels go on forever! Just wondering when the (original)clutch on my old 150k BX is going to go and whether a new clutch will cost more than the car is worth. (I have the same conflict when I buy a tankful of diesel) Still, I could always get a Xantia TD SX with air con etc for a few hundred quid. What a dilemma - tank of diesel or "new" car? What would you advise. Must consult HJ's CBC breakdown - Xantia doesn't come out too bad!
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PhilW, just a point here: I have found that "wondering when (something) will go" frequently causes it to do so! There are often mystic forcesat work in automobiles which no fact-fixated engineer and the manual cannot explain. I would ignore it if I were you, I often think cars run much better if ignored. Although I guess by your account you could another get car for the price of a new clutch anyway!
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PhilW, just a point here: I have found that "wondering when (something) will go" frequently causes it to do so! There are often mystic forcesat work in automobiles which no fact-fixated engineer and the manual cannot explain. I would ignore it if I were you, I often think cars run much better if ignored. Although I guess by your account you could get another car for the price of a new clutch anyway!
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Quite agree. There's a couple of CX turbos in the current 'Citroenian' for under a grand - I know it's a high risk strategy, but you could just get a year or two's seriously quick motoring for almost pocket money. I can't think of more bang for your buck, off-hand.
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Great what a debate!
I can't resist any longer so here goes.......
Peoples perception is remarkable in it's lack of logic, if a car with a low image has lots of faults it's junk, however if it's a Lambo it's character. If a low image car is good, reliable, effiecient it's boring. If it's a Ferrari then it's the ultimate car.
To draw a parallel, the Honda Superdream (250cc) is slated to hell and back for being crap but alot of riders will confess that it was perfectly good for what it was made for.
I'll be sticking to cars that I can fix and I can afford the parts for.
Statistics etc!
Keep it going.
Steve.
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As this is the first time I have visited this site I realy enjoyed reading it, special thanks to Chris and NWS for their entertaining contribution and for their disipline in avoiding censorship by Mark.
Mal.
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Site?, silly me should have said thread.
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Fascinating thread. It confirms my opinion that (in the final analysis) people believe what they want to believe; and if they believe it strongly enough it is impossible to change their opinion, even if it can be incontrovertibly shown to be unfounded nonsense! [ and it applies to a whole lot more topics than motoring ] How many centuries was it before the Vatican conceded that the earth was round?
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What do you mean the earth's round?
Steve.
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Burn the heretic!!!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Yeah, if it was round - all our cars would fall off it.
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"It confirms my opinion that (in the final analysis) people believe what they want to believe"
Andrew,
Is it that? Or is it just that we are far more likely to forgive the imperfections in the things we already like/enjoy/find pleasing in some other way?
Car cuts you up. You catch up with them at the next junction and get ready to exchange glances/glare/gesture - turns out it's a complete "babe" who pouts a simpering smile.
Still ticked off?
Every fault with a car you're not well disposed to feels like a personal insult.
I know these things - I worked for a company where your car had to be either a Ford (pre-Mondeo days) or a Vauxhall.
I also had a toy that had just as many "niggles" but every minute it wasn't niggling......etc.
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Have you ever read the nonsense they talk about in hi-fi listening tests or tried to understand the babble of so called art experts when describing a piece of "modern art".
I would like someone to pay me £12000 to kick an empty curry carton up the street in the name of art but then I am not an artist so it would not be art if I did it.[todays Daily Express]
Sorry for straying off topic Mark I have only just read the paper and got myself worked up about that story.
Mal.
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Maybe the blind HiFi listening tests are the one's to take note of. It's interesting to find that modern testing equipment has progressed to a level where an accurate prediction can be made of peoples reaction to certain pieces of HiFi.
Another can of worms opened.
Steve.
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In-car HiFi of course (motoring link).
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Can you link my curry carton story to motoring Steve?.
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Blind car HiFi listening tests?
Sounds dangerous to me!
Steve.
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I can, it's taking place next month alongside the rank I sit at in Bedford High Street... ;-)
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My favorite 3 (ICE ;-) ) Hi Fi myths.
1) Putting CD's in the fridge gives better performance.
2) Copied CDs lose sound quality.
IT'S DIGITAL!!! IT'S IDENTICAL!!!!!!
and my personal favorite:
3) Vinyl sounds better.
Sadly number 3 is arbitary and not easy to disprove *but* if you put random low frequency noise on a CD a Hi Fi buff will claim to be listening to vinyl.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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You forgot the one about running a green felt pen around the edge of the disc to improve sound.
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You forgot the one about running a green felt pen around the edge of the disc to improve sound.
That's to trash the Table of Contents so a 'protected' disc can be played in your PC player and copied!!!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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No Toad this idea came out years ago in hi-fi mags in the days of floppy discs!!!:-)
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No Toad this idea came out years ago in hi-fi mags in the days of floppy discs!!!:-)
I see!!! Now that is funny.
Hi-Fi enthusiasts are the funniest group around.
A rabid hi-fi mate came over the other week, by car [1]. He went ballistic 'cos the speakers weren't a foot off the wall.
He had me adjust them 'till the sound was 'just right', without realising I'd disconected the left one!!!
[1] Phew!!!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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ToTH,
The copied CD thing, are we talking jitter here?
Steve.
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Jitter is a thing of the past.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Any more on this subject and Mark will move it to "I have a question"
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I can see a ticking off looming as we head further away from motoring :)
1) Of course refridgerating CDs produces better quality, just the same as putting the old BT phonecards in the freezer used to blank them! Sadly, and this applies to number 2 as well, zeros and ones are zeros and ones whatever temperature they are. To keep CDs playing at best quality, advice of not putting fingerprints/scratches/snot all over the back of them is usually the best.
3) Always an interesting one, the vinyl and CD debate. It is true that you are not getting "complete" sound digitally that you could with (impossible) perfect analogue but you find me someone who can generally tell the difference. Want deeper and more natural bass? Buy a valve amp! There is the argument that certain sonics are produced from "natural" sound that a CD can't reproduce but most peoples speakers and hearing is outside the scope of that anyway. I always love it when a vinyl buff puts on his favourite record and won't shut up about the resonance and how amazing it sounds, while you stand there grinning hearing all the dust "clicks" and background hiss that he seems to be overlooking!
Just to pop in a quick motoring link, didn't they make a car record player in the early 70s?!
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Dan J's
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This thread has gone quite far enough.
Thank you.
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