Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - meldrew

Top Gear covered this a while ago but can anyone see the sense in a pricey car with a range of 100 miles? Or the optional Extended Range pack to do a further 30?

There are TWO charging points at Warwick motorway services. How long does it take to charge? How much does it cost in terms of units of electricity? what happens if three cars want charging at the same time....? Who would be daft enough to go that far from home?

Somebody please explain. I must be missing something here..?!

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

Top Gear covered this a while ago but can anyone see the sense in a pricey car with a range of 100 miles? Or the optional Extended Range pack to do a further 30?

There are TWO charging points at Warwick motorway services. How long does it take to charge? How much does it cost in terms of units of electricity? what happens if three cars want charging at the same time....? Who would be daft enough to go that far from home?

Somebody please explain. I must be missing something here..?!

Depends on how many miles you need it to do each day. Depends on where chargers are in relation to where you live. Most people who buy an electric car are not wanting it for longer journeys.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - madf

"Top Gear covered this a while ago but can anyone see the sense in a pricey car with a range of 100 miles? Or the optional Extended Range pack to do a further 30?"

Top Gear are full of ten year old childen whose opinion is good for five year olds but not adults.

The biggest sector for cars in the UK - and the one growing fastest - is small cars.

As for "pricey" cars, remind me what cars Top Gear likes .. mainly expensive cars unsuitable for town driving.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - benjohnson66

I have just seen an episode of fifth gear where the two presenters criticise an electric vehicle for its limited range especially at night- and quite rightly the vehicle is dismissed as not a practical alternative to a combustion engined vehicle. (six hour charging times and a 100 mile range) so the technology isn't quite there yet. Some time ago I test drove a leaf but with 130 mile range It wasn't suitable. I asked Nissan UK at the time if they did an auxillary battery that could be plugged in but they said they didn't have any plans for this.

If an auxillary battery could be fitted (eg something around 20KG) that be be easily plugged in and out (and maybe sat in a quarter of the boot space) then for me an electric car would be viable. especially if they were offered at petrol stations on an exchange basis ( similar to the old calor gas cylinders where you paid full price for the first one and then swapped it for future full ones at a lesser cost)

Often the manufactures quote that most car journeys are less than 25 miles-defeatist talk! I dont want to be told on how far I can drive in a day but the bottom line is I'm not spending big amounts of cash on a car that might not get me home.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Avant

A petrol / electric hybrid surely makes a lot more sense for most people. And if you're going to do only short journeys, something small and economical like an Up or an i10 is a l.ot cheaper than, say a Nissan Leaf.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - galileo

£16K plus £70 per month battery lease for a Leaf (and insurance costs), what short journey usage is more economical than taking a taxi?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - bazza

For certain modes of use, it may make sense. For example, consider a city runabout used by e.g couriers or hotels. Assume 90 miles a day on a single charge costing about £2 according to Nissan. That makes it £14 a week plus £70 a month battery rental = £126 monthly fuel bill.

Same calculation for e.g small petrol averaging perhaps 40 mpg in the city = £95 a week petrol bill = £378 monthly.

£1512 annual fuel electric car

£4536 annual petrol bill - small city petrol car

Assume 10 year ownership life = savings of over £30000 for the electric car. More than pays for its additional purchase cost.

But agree, it's very specialised application and range anxiety means it's not suitable for most of us. Petrol-hybrid from Toyota certainly is though, from what i am hearing from neighbours and the general chat on here.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

A petrol / electric hybrid surely makes a lot more sense for most people.

I don't think a hybrid car makes much overall sense for any person. It just transfers its pollution from the vicinity of the vehicle to the power station. And the car has to lug around a big heavy battery as well as the fuel tank. Unless these things really catch on, there won't be many charging points either - rather like things were in about 1905, I suppose.

And then you must factor in the cost of the battery technology and materials.

Edited by Andrew-T on 18/11/2013 at 15:46

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
The first thing to say is that for many early purchasers of electric cars, it's not just an economic decision. It becomes a lifestyle choice. And try getting 5 adults in an Up!
Yes, LEAF and Zoe have a range of up to 120 miles. But the average Briton covers about 25 miles a day, so that's potentially 4 days on a single charge. A range extender vehicle, such as Volt/Ampera, or the RE version of the new BMW i3 will add another 0 to the quoted 30 miles extension of their range.
Motorway service stations are now starting to get charge points, with each one capable of charging 2 cars simultaneously. If they are the latest 43Kw posts, you'll be on your way in 30 minutes. About the time it takes a Starbucks coffee takes to cool to drinking temperature. Cost? Zero. The only place you pay to recharge an EV is if you do it at home. Typically a 22Kw/h motor in the car, charging through a 7Kw domestic charger. Supplied and fitted free, incidentally, under a government initiative.
I'm not an apologist for EVs, I'm a fan of them. Go and drive a LEAF or Zoe, or the i3 when it appears. You'll be very impressed. And if it doesn't suit your lifestyle? Easy. Don't buy one.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Collos25

I do not think I will and I wasn*t and I won*t.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - artill

From my point of view, an electric car would work for me only as an additional car. It would need to be charged at home, and not need to travel further than a single charge can get it as i dont see how you can be sure to find somewhere to recharge it when out.

Whilst a Leaf may claim upto 120 miles i recall Autocar testing one, and in the winter the range was down to 43 miles, so thats what i assume they will do.

Its possible the drive very well. They really should for the cost.

Too often i need to travel more than 43 miles in a day, and the cost would never make it worthwhile having a car just for that, but i am open minded. Maybe one day they will be a cost effective way to travel short distances.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
Yes, I'd agree that there's only a small number of people that could run an EV as their only car.
As far a Autocar testing one, and getting 43 miles, I spent a week in a LEAF during the summer and was getting 100 miles per charge in a city centre.
The UK now has about 8,500 petrol stations, and that number has dropped fom a peak of 37,000 in 1970. There are already over 3,000 public charge points in the UK, and growing daily. The sat-nav on most EVs will calculate whether you've the range to make your destination, and divert you to a charge point if it's out of reach.
The battery lease is equivalent to a tank of petrol or diesel, so is it that expensive?
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Skezza

I still believe we should have focussed our energy on super-efficient diesels, rather than electric cars or hybrids for that matter.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - bazza

Skezza, a lot of people would agree with you that a super-efficient diesel is hard to beat. But the EU legislation on emissions is adding so much cost and complexity to the units that it is no longer cost effective for manufacturers to continue developing them for small applications. Whether one agrees with the anti-pollution science and overall strategy is academic, that is what is happening. Hence the focus on small turbo petrols, hybrids and EV. When Euro 6 comes into force in a couple of years time, that will effectively kill off small diesels as it will add about £1000 to each car to produce. Plus the question marks on running costs, reliability and servicing of the additional Nitrogen reduction kit plus the DPFs etc. For most users, it will not be cheaper or logical to choose diesel in a small car, hence the movement of development in other directions.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Skezza

But they're not sustainable. There's already reports of 1st gen Prius (about 10 years old) having battery failures and the cost of a replacement is over £2000! Not only that, new Prius' are sold with a battery warranty of 8 years or 100,000 miles. I'm sorry, but how can anyone call that sustainable. It's classic short-term'ism without considering the long-term effects.

Companies should have continued focussing on super efficient diesel cars, as I already said. VW made a special version of my car, the Lupo 3L. The reason it was called 3L was because it could achieve 100 kilometres on 3 litres of fuel, roughly 94MPG, on paper. It still holds the Guiness World Record for the highest MPG ever achieved, it got 99MPG driving across Australia. There's numerous reports of them getting well over 100MPG on eco-modders etc. So what did VW do? They stopped manufacturing them. There's only about 5 or 6 in this country anyway and they go for serious money, but there's loads across Europe and you can import them.

They're a sustainable car. They have a small turbo, so the likelihood of engine failure due to forced induction is fairly low and they are super cheap to insure (trust me, I nearly bought one).

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - madf

"But they're not sustainable. There's already reports of 1st gen Prius (about 10 years old) having battery failures and the cost of a replacement is over £2000! Not only that, new Prius' are sold with a battery warranty of 8 years or 100,000 miles. I'm sorry, but how can anyone call that sustainable. It's classic short-term'ism without considering the long-term effects."

Who in their right minds spends £2k on a 10 year old car?

And who spends £2k on a new battery pack when it can be repaired for much less.-- just replace dud cells.

Straw man . illogical.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - daveyjp
The average life of a car is now only 8 years, so if you get ten years you won't spend the money, it will be scrapheap fodder.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - galileo
Yes, I'd agree that there's only a small number of people that could run an EV as their only car. As far a Autocar testing one, and getting 43 miles, I spent a week in a LEAF during the summer and was getting 100 miles per charge in a city centre.



From this time of year till Spring, using lights and assuming the heater is at least 1kW, fans to demist and wipers when it rains, I think you would be lucky to get 43 miles per charge. (You could, of course, wear thermal underwear and do without the heat)
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Collos25

There is not a battery car made that will use less co2 than the average petrol car in its life span and unless there is a massive breakthrough in battery technology it will remain so.Anybody who thinks these vehicles are a shade of green want to do a bit of homework.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
Yes, an EV has a larger co2 footprint to produce than an ICE vehicle. indisputable. However, from that point on it's zero emissions in use. It's effective co2 will depend on how a country's electricity is produced. If its coal based, then an EV is close to a petrol car. If electricity is hydro, wind, gas, nuclear, emissions in use are much lower than an internal combustion engine.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - bazza

From my own point of view I am not the slightest bit interested in the overall carbon footprint of what I own and drive, but I am very much interested in how it affects my bank balance! if electric vehicles give me a cost advantage in my daily running about then I shall have one, if not I won't! Same for hybrids, they are now a viable option hence I am interested. I can still satisfy the petrol-head in me by buying something more interesting for when I am not commuting. Driving around /commuting needs to be as efficient as possible to make any sense financially these days.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Collos25

Not a question of how electricity is produced its down to the rare materials that help make the batteries scarcer than oil and only found now in very wayout places.If you were to convert all cars not wagons or aeroplanes or ships to battery power then firstly there is not enough materials to make the batteries and if there were you would have to increase grid supply by 7 fold an impossible task we cannot produce enough to cope with what we have without importing large amounts of energy from unstable countries.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
Bolivia alone has enough lithium reserves for 4.8 billion electric cars, and massive reserves have been found in Wyoming, potentially making the US self sufficient. If we're talking about importing from unstable areas, it doesn't get less stable than the oil producing Middle East, does it?
We're not talking about the World going 100% EV - all I'm trying to point out is that they're viable for a greater percentage of the population than is currently thought.
I'm a massive fan of all things internal combustion (I'm a race and rally instructor), but I honestly believe that EV is part of the future.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

and if there were you would have to increase grid supply by 7 fold an impossible task we cannot produce enough to cope with what we have without importing large amounts of energy from unstable countries.

We can, we choose not to - when I say we I mean energy companies/government

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

There is not a battery car made that will use less co2 ...

A car that uses CO2 would be a world-beater.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
Part of the way to offset this is to pre-warm the car remotely, via your mobile, while it's still plugged in to the mains. The heater, using an air source heat pump on the Zoe, only then has to 'top-up' cabin temperature.
They're not perfect, yet, but battery technology will evolve to the point where we'll be used to silent cars on our streets.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - artill

Another issue which bothers me about electric cars is tax.

Right now there are so few of them it doesnt matter, but over time if they have any success it will. Fill your car with petrol or diesel and you are making a very large and generous contribution to running this country. Refill the batteries of an EV and the chancellor gets next to nothing.

So what will happen. They cant tax electricity like petrol and diesel because we wouldnt be able to run our homes, so we will have to have road charging, or just add the tax lost to general taxation. Either way, the more people who buy electric cars the more tax the rest of us will pay

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - SlidingPillar

Until or unless battery technology gets a lot better electric vehicles will remain a footnote in history. While they are perhaps suited to the shorter commuter run, people currently use their cars for this, longer commutes and holidays.

There have been electric vehicles since the very early days of the car, there are even a few London to Brighton eligable ones, although I doubt very much they could do the distance.

But if a battery is made that gives a 400 mile range (without pussyfooting), not inordinatly heavy, at a reasonable price, and can be easily recharged, I think the bets are off. I might even buy an electric car then.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
You're quite right in saying electric cars are suited to shorter commuter runs, a long commuter run becomes more problematic: unless your employer has a charge point at a place of work.
However, if the sole reason to dismiss electric cars is because you can't go on holiday in them, then you're driving the wrong car for 50 weeks a year. It'd be much cheaper to hire a car for a two week period than to pay a fuel penalty for 96% of the year. Nobody thinks twice about hiring a car at foreign airports, why not for UK holidays?
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - glowplug

Having run a Prius, various diesels small and large plus petrols inc turbos with LPG and worked on them all to different degrees I can say this and know that it's not based on other peoples opinions.

Old diesel vehicles aren't that efficient around town, modern diesels around town are a liability - the DPF fouls up, they need expensive oil and during regen their MPG plumets plus dual mass flywheel problems.

Large petrol vehicles gobble fuel around town but small petrols can be great but cramped.

My Prius did the same mpg as a 107 but is far bigger, has all the driving comforts, can seat 5 adults and has luggage space, is easier to driver, no clutch to wear out, brakes last for years and the batteries last a long time. Never needed a thing during the year I owned it (it's mileage was over 110,000), cost £10 to tax, was cheap to insure and relaxing to drive. Why did I sell it? Because you can't tow with a Prius. The main design aim with a Prius is/was low emissions not ultimate economy.

As for sustainability, batteries are recycleable. Also bear this in mind, fuel refineries use as much power as a small town so the base CO2 load for any hydrocarbon fuelled car is massive before you even start it up.

My ideal setup would be a house with solar and a Zoe or plugin Prius. Not because I'm an eco warrior but because I begrudge paying so much money to corrupt money grabbing businesses.

I'm off now to light the wood burner....

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - veryoldbear

I'm impressed. Where can I get a wood burning car?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Top Gear are full of ten year old childen whose opinion is good for five year olds but not adults.

The biggest sector for cars in the UK - and the one growing fastest - is small cars.


So because you don't like Top Gear we must therefore ignore all of the shortcomings of electric vehicles?

I think they're a very expensive, pointless, rich persons plaything at best.

Edited by jamie745 on 08/11/2013 at 21:44

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

Top Gear are full of ten year old childen whose opinion is good for five year olds but not adults.

The biggest sector for cars in the UK - and the one growing fastest - is small cars.


So because you don't like Top Gear we must therefore ignore all of the shortcomings of electric vehicles?

I think they're a very expensive, pointless, rich persons plaything at best.

No, just ignore what Top Gear think!

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

This thread wasn't about Top Gear. It was about the total con which is the electric car.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

This thread wasn't about Top Gear. It was about the total con which is the electric car.

So why even mention Top Gaer yourself?

I was just saying you can ignore Top Gears thoughts on electric cars as I would ignore any of their other comments as it's just an entertainment programme.

As foe electric cars they are hardly a con - they are very good at what they do and as the years go on will begin having more of a range and prices will come down.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

When will the Government stop subsidising them by giving £5,000 of my money to every Oxfordshire, Guardianista toff who likes to show off his green credentials at wife swapping parties?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

When will the Government stop subsidising them by giving £5,000 of my money to every Oxfordshire, Guardianista toff who likes to show off his green credentials at wife swapping parties?

I expect when costs come down from manufactuerers and more people start buying them so the governement will not be wanting to pay out as much in subsidys.

And nothing like sweeping stereotypes for people! LOL

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Yes but the Government shouldn't be subsidising businesses who wouldn't be able to sell their products otherwise. With you and me picking up some of the bill on a Nissan Leaf, Nissan has less incentive to make it cheaper.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

Yes but the Government shouldn't be subsidising businesses who wouldn't be able to sell their products otherwise. With you and me picking up some of the bill on a Nissan Leaf, Nissan has less incentive to make it cheaper.

I agree with you there.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jc2

As foe electric cars they are hardly a con - they are very good at what they do and as the years go on will begin having more of a range and prices will come down.

Can you please explain where this EXTRA range will come from? Hybrids/hydrogen-yes but pure electrics have been around since the late 1800's wth very little improvement.A lot of years have gone by!!!

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mcb100
The majority, for use as a second car, don't need any more range. Yes, it'd be nice, but not essential.
So an electric car from 100 years ago would do 100 miles on a charge? At a maximum of 25mph, taking considerably longer than 30 minutes to charge, and without the ability to charge and discharge batteries thousands of times without issue.
Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - mondeo1306

Using electric motors to power a car is great, 100% torque instantly

but where to get the leccy from?..

relying totally on batteries wont work, they simply havent HAD to evolve to the point where storage and recharging can replace an IC engine so.....

the options

1. Generate leccy onboard (fuel cell or gas turbine)

2. Have a super efficient IC engine powering a genny

3. Onboard additional charging to help (solar panels at least)

Jaguar almost went the GTurbine route but backed off, the Ampera has an IC engine which doesnt power the wheels

But I reckon (me personally) that all the big CAR builders, also being big IC ENGINE builders are avoiding producing a viable leccy car, untill they buy out General electric (or other electric motor builders), once the oil runs out all the proper leccy cars will suddenly appear, or to put it another way, we are being stitched up

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jc2

Remember the old joke:-

"What's a Californian ZEV(Zero Emission Vehicle)? An electric car using power generated in Nevada!

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jc2

Very few people get anything like the "quoted" range on pure electric cars;remember that power is also used for heating/AC,wipers,lights,PAS etc. and also drivers tend to make use of the torque available for acceleration-in the US,GM made a limited number of electric cars available to members of the public and the publics' main complaint was limited range-much less than GM quoted.If I am only doing limited milage,I walk,cycle or use public transport-I only need a car for long journeys and,at this moment,that means petrol or diesel or some form of hybrid but these are expensive.Also,people tend to forget that electricity has to be generated,can only be stored inefficiently & expensively and that most batteries use a combination of heavy metals and other chemicals which have to be refined and at the end of their useful life,disposed of.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dimdip

mondeo1306 wrote:<<

1. Generate leccy onboard (fuel cell or gas turbine)

2. Have a super efficient IC engine powering a genny

3. Onboard additional charging to help (solar panels at least)

Jaguar almost went the GTurbine route but backed off, the Ampera has an IC engine which doesnt power the wheels>>

Yeah I think the ICE driving a generator like a diesel-electric train will be the way it'll go. Does away with the clutch, multi-ratio gearbox, differential, and drive shafts. Presumably only requires a small onboard battery, probably similar in size to current ones. Plus of course the water circuit heat on tap for heating, dehumidifying and demisting which, let's face it, you need most of the year in a wet country. So basically solving a lot of the current EV problems.

Solar panels don't really produce much power per area compared to what the motor needs. Though the Leaf has one for ancilliaries, according to the TG report?

No idea how new small gas turbines compare with reciprocating engines for economy – does anyone know? They're certainly lighter though.

Edited by dimdip on 09/11/2013 at 22:07

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Hamsafar

My ideal setup would be a house with solar and a Zoe or plugin Prius.

That brings up another problem, wind drops at night and there is no solar panel output and this is the time that all these EVs would be charging.

I agree with you about having this setup to be self-sufficient would be satisfying, but the only reason solar and wind are would having is due to the financial scam that accompanies them, ie paying five times the market value for each unit of electricity and getting ordinary bill payers to stump it up for the big foreign corporations those who can afford to invest in installing the technology.


Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Avant

Reading through this thread I realise what it is I have against purely electric cars. The whole point of the motor car is the comparative freedom that it gives us to go where we want, when we want.

You might drive the few miles to your office in your EV and in mid-morning suddenly need to do a 100-mile business trip. Or at leisure you decide 'let's go to the seaside / for a country drive' etc. If you're nearly out of fuel in a petrol or diesel car you go and fill up. Your EV if low on 'juice' might need several hours of charging.

People who want, or need to have, that sort of freedom won't buy an EV, although they might get a hybrid..

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Reading through this thread I realise what it is I have against purely electric cars. The whole point of the motor car is the comparative freedom that it gives us to go where we want, when we want.

Fair point. Owning the current incarnation of an EV is a life full of planning, timetables & discipline. If I wanted that in my life I'd take the f***ing bus!

You might drive the few miles to your office in your EV and in mid-morning suddenly need to do a 100-mile business trip.

Last Tuesday I got a phonecall as I was having my morning toast, telling me somebody has gone sick and one of our retail outlets therefore won't be open. I then had to get down to HQ to fetch site keys & alarm codes, then get 60 miles to cover the site.

Imagine if I only had 40 miles of charge left...

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dimdip

They only make sense for a subset of commuters who know they won't do more than half the available range each way. Though for someone who is in that subset, an EV would be a gem. If they can charge up at work too that would bring advantages in extending the battery's life, since apparently the batteries last longer when kept topped-up. Not an issue for leased units though, I guess. It would make having an economy-7 electricity tariff worthwhile, too.

Seems like this country's bigger problem is the electricity generation one people have mentioned. At least we have one new nuclear station in the pipeline now but could do with a lot more to avoid either a) being held to ransom by Putin for gas, or b) covering the countryside in wind-farms.

Must say I thought the Top Gear piece was genuinely informative and brought some of the issues out into the open for those of us who don't keep up with the technical developments. The brass-rubbing bit was pricelss too...

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - SteveLee

The only "electric" car that makes sense to me is the Chevrolet Volt/Vauxhall Ampera a prechargable range extender - perfectly sensible.

That Top Gear episode where the "Pious" wins the economy test still annoys me to this very day - they gave everyone a gallon of fuel to see how far they could drive in their economic petrol/diesel and hybrid cars - did they start he Pious with a flat traction battery pack? Did they heck, so it started the biased test with a gallon of fuel plus however much fuel it took to charge the traction batteries.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - meldrew

Apologies for not making a further contribution to the thread I started due to various distractions. Many interesting comments and it looks like the jury is still out. Can't see the economy of having the hassle of two engines in a hybrid and electric is useless for long journeys. Mrs M says if it does not use petrol, have gears and 200 HP she is not interested - but at least she buys her own cars!

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Now that is a proper woman you've got yourself there.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dan86

I like the idea of a electric car as I do less than 20 miles a day in commuting but a weekends we tend do a couple of hundred miles on average and the limited range is what puts me off at the moment. But how about longliverty of these cars can u expect them to still be reliable in 10 years time and could the rack up high milage like a normal car?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - RT

Electric cars don't need to be designed to last for vast mileages - they're only feasible for commuting runs so unlikely to ever do high mileage.

They may make sense for two-car families but means more mileage and emissions for the other, presumably, conventional car.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Ethan Edwards

Electric cars don't need to be designed to last for vast mileages - they're only feasible for commuting runs so unlikely to ever do high mileage.

They may make sense for two-car families but means more mileage and emissions for the other, presumably, conventional car.

My commuting run is a round trip of 75 miles a day which means I do 19K a year in total. An EV will be of no use for me whatsoever.

They are only any use to lentil munching Guardian readers on a holier than thou quest to prove how stupid er green they are. Shame is that our idiot politicians are totally in thrall to the lentil munchers.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

They are only any use to lentil munching Guardian readers on a holier than thou quest to prove how stupid er green they are. Shame is that our idiot politicians are totally in thrall to the lentil munchers.

Oh dear, another bit of sour stereotyping .... but I guess it must be cathartic for the writer.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Armitage Shanks {p}

The received wisdom is that you will need a new battery pack, at a cost of £ A lot after about 7 years. This may be why Renault do a lease/rental schemme on their battery packs?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dan86

www.greencarreports.com/news/1084588_update-on-hig...r

I know its from an American website and hes had to have a charging station put in at his place of work and a charge halfway but it seems to be holding up to the high milage.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Happy Blue!

Reading through this thread I realise what it is I have against purely electric cars. The whole point of the motor car is the comparative freedom that it gives us to go where we want, when we want.

Fair point. Owning the current incarnation of an EV is a life full of planning, timetables & discipline. If I wanted that in my life I'd take the f***ing bus!

You might drive the few miles to your office in your EV and in mid-morning suddenly need to do a 100-mile business trip.

Last Tuesday I got a phonecall as I was having my morning toast, telling me somebody has gone sick and one of our retail outlets therefore won't be open. I then had to get down to HQ to fetch site keys & alarm codes, then get 60 miles to cover the site.

Imagine if I only had 40 miles of charge left...

The Better Place range was meant to solve this problem with battery swap stations. The company failed through lack of take up. They opened for business in Israel (where the idea was designed), Denmark and Australia, none of which is a high population country. They would have been better to start in the UK and Germany. Pity. I know someone who had a Better Place Renault Fluence ZE and he loved it.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Collos25

A factory in Germany purely for batteries and battery replacement it has never had any machinery installed it lies empty.perhaps the release today of two new BMW battery cars might kick start the program.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

I'll tell you what I really don't 'get' about Electric Cars, it boils down to one question really;

What's the point?

Seriously. What purpose are they meant to serve?

They can't be to save us from the world running out of oil, because they told us we'd run out in the 1970s yet here we are still. Brazil has just discovered an offshore Saudi Arabia in its own seas, it's not like the stuffs running out anytime soon.

They can't be to save us from the world burning to a crisp next Tuesday, because the climate change lobby has since been hilariously discredited that the general populace doesn't believe them.

They also make no sense from a mere inferstructure point of view. Britain is set to run out of electricity in 2015, so why are we encouraging people to power cars from the plug?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

I'll tell you what I really don't 'get' about Electric Cars,

Seriously. What purpose are they meant to serve?

They can't be to save us from the world running out of oil, because they told us we'd run out in the 1970s yet here we are still.

Just because it didn't run out last time, it does not follow that it never will. Especially as the rate of consumption shows no sign of falling. We all expect the oil companies to go on extracting crude from ever more impossible places (e.g. bottom of sea, Arctic regions) and selling their product to us cheaply.

In any case electric cars are still burning fossil fuel, unless the charging comes from a nuclear power station. Their CO2 just comes out somewhere else.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Everytime they start to scaremonger about running out of oil, they go and find another 50 trillion barrels worth somewhere else. The biggest 'threat' to oil supplies and prices isn't the amount of oil in the ground, it's the amount of oil the OPEC nations choose to produce. Whenever it gets 'too cheap' the Saudis just switch to a four day week to produce less.

If Electric Cars were viable, they wouldn't need Government subsidy. If Wind Energy really worked, they wouldn't need Government subsidy.

When oil eventually runs out, it's replacement won't be engineered by Government. In fact Government will probably be the biggest obsticle to overcome.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

If Electric Cars were viable, they wouldn't need Government subsidy. If Wind Energy really worked, they wouldn't need Government subsidy.

Roof insulation works, but many people are too tight to pay for it. The Govt would like more people to get it, so there is a subsidy.

Solar panels work, but to make it easier for suppliers to get started the Govt subsidised the tariff. Quite a few benefits (small B) would be less accessible if subsidies were banned.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Perhaps if Government didn't rapaciously assault peoples incomes to subsidise the few, then maybe more people would feel able to buy roof insulation themselves. It's up to those selling roof insulation to convince the market it's worth buying, but now they largely don't have to, because the State is picking up the bill.

The technology of producing electricity with a solar panel may well work, but the reason you see massive Solar Farms taking up good farmland, pushing up food bills is because there's Government encouragement for building them. When people (companies and individuals) start making things to earn a subsidy, it's not good. If you promise tax breaks for buying/making things you want them to buy/make, then obviously they will do so.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

Perhaps if Government didn't rapaciously assault peoples incomes to subsidise the few, then maybe ....

So it's all down to market forces then? Don't bother with insulation, just burn a bit more fuel. Ah, the price is going up - h*ll, I can't afford to insulate my roof, I must be paying too much tax ....

Anarchists?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - twitcherman

massive Solar Farms taking up good farmland, pushing up food bills

Hoho, Jamie. Personally I don't see the difference between subsidising farmers for generating power and subsidising them for producing food which they can't sell at a free market price.

If we ended farm subsidies tomorrow (a good idea, in my opinion), we'd find out that most of the UK agricultural sector is not viable in a free market. Won't happen though, because the major landowners who benefit from these subsidies permanently have the ear of government.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

I don't see the difference between subsidising farmers for generating power and subsidising them for producing food which they can't sell at a free market price.

I do.

we'd find out that most of the UK agricultural sector is not viable in a free market.

major landowners who benefit from these subsidies permanently have the ear of government.

Well it's very little to do with the British Government really, it all stems from the European Unions Common Agricultural Policy, which the French President of any political stripe is expected to fight to the death to preserve at every Brussels summit.

Subsidies need to change. The incentive for farmers needs to be to produce as much food as possible so cut them a deal whereby encourage maximum land use.


Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

I don't see the difference between subsidising farmers for generating power and subsidising them for producing food which they can't sell at a free market price.

I do. Well, what is it?

we'd find out that most of the UK agricultural sector is not viable in a free market.

major landowners who benefit from these subsidies permanently have the ear of government.

Subsidies need to change. The incentive for farmers needs to be to produce as much food as possible so cut them a deal whereby encourage maximum land use.

Are you in farming? You might take a different view. 'Cut them a deal?' Perhaps offer a subsidy?

Enough farmers already leave the land because making a living that way can be living on a knife-edge. Would you rather have less and less UK land usefully farmed, and become even more dependent on imports?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - jamie745

Well, what is it?

The difference is clear. You can't grow lettuce at the bottom of the sea, but you can certainly get energy from there. So let's take energy from there and grow food where food can grow, rather than using it for fuel.

Are you in farming? You might take a different view. 'Cut them a deal?' Perhaps offer a subsidy?

I'm in favour of a subsidy if it helps produce affordable food for the public. That's a good use of public money, unfortunately too much of it is now going to landowners rather than active farmers and there's little incentive to actually use the land you have.

I'm not in favour of subsidies for multinational conglomerates to sell things they otherwise couldn't sell.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

In any case electric cars are still burning fossil fuel, unless the charging comes from a nuclear power station. Their CO2 just comes out somewhere else.

Which produces less CO2 though? A tank of petrol or diesel or the equivalent of electricity?

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - galileo

In any case electric cars are still burning fossil fuel, unless the charging comes from a nuclear power station. Their CO2 just comes out somewhere else.

Which produces less CO2 though? A tank of petrol or diesel or the equivalent of electricity?

It depends on how the electricity is generated - hydro and nuclear power stations don't emit CO2, coal and gas fired stations do, but their overall thermal efficiency is probably higher than a diesel which is not operating in an efficient mode.

Wind power I refuse to accept as a viable power source, if there is no wind it might as well not exist, wind can't be controlled, so if you want light to read the paper by and depend entirely on it, wait till sunrise or the next breeze.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - RT

It depends on how the electricity is generated - hydro and nuclear power stations don't emit CO2, coal and gas fired stations do, but their overall thermal efficiency is probably higher than a diesel which is not operating in an efficient mode.

Wind power I refuse to accept as a viable power source, if there is no wind it might as well not exist, wind can't be controlled, so if you want light to read the paper by and depend entirely on it, wait till sunrise or the next breeze.

That's why nuclear power is the lesser of several evils - England cannot ever cope alone on weather dependent energy sources like solar, wind or tidal so will always have to top up with nuclear, coal, gas or oil fired stations - of which nuclear is the cleanest albeit we have to store the spent waste but that's not large volume.

Scotland might cope on weather dependent sources but for the concentration of demand in the Central Belt where they'll always need to "import" huge amounts of energy.

Wales might cope with weather dependent sources but only by covering the country in pumped storage schemes to store the energy when the sun was shining, wind was blowing, etc and release the energy back when needed.

Northern Ireland would probably be similar to England in this respect.

On top of all that, there's transmission losses is the power cables and all the various transformers, that enough to power a region on it's own!

Edited by RT on 19/11/2013 at 08:20

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

< That's why nuclear power is the lesser of several evils - England cannot ever cope alone on weather dependent energy sources like solar, wind or tidal so will always have to top up with nuclear, coal, gas or oil fired stations - of which nuclear is the cleanest albeit we have to store the spent waste but that's not large volume. >

It's all fine and dandy until something goes wrong, as the Japanese recently discovered. We are lucky not to be in an earthquake zone, but remember Chernobyl. Cleaning up a failed fossil-fuelled power station is imaginably possible. With radioactivity you have to wait decades, centuries or longer for it to die down, or dilute the whole problem on an impossible scale. When human error can be eliminated, nuclear will be a brilliant option.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

Human error will never be eliminated.

You need to look to Nuclear Fussion power - if we can get it up and running as planned it will give all the benefits of a Nuclear power station without the downsides.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - harryletterman

I think we are at the very beginign of electri mobiles. I bet in 2-3 years time they will be able to travel at least 300 miles without recharghing the battery. I mean take a look at some Teslo mobiles, they have an enouromous potential.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - alan1302

I think we are at the very beginign of electri mobiles. I bet in 2-3 years time they will be able to travel at least 300 miles without recharghing the battery. I mean take a look at some Teslo mobiles, they have an enouromous potential.

I agree - the world of cars and how they are powered is under a lot of change at the moment. From electric cars, through to hybrids.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - slkfanboy

It's all fine and dandy until something goes wrong, as the Japanese recently discovered. We are lucky not to be in an earthquake zone, but remember Chernobyl

What did Japan discover well that they should a decommsioned the power plan at the end of there natual life and not to put them on an earth quake zone.

Chernobyl used RBMK reactors while cheap to build are not safe (yes they are still in operation). Lession being you must have a full containment structure.. That directly affected some 148,000 people and took two years and 800,00 people to get under control.

What ever is said or done things happen and we need ways to contain them safely. It's the way forward but care is needed.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dimdip

^ agreed, and in addition to the RBMK being a bad design, they were playing silly b*****s with it at the time, which caused the event.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - thunderbird

110 years or so years ago there were very few cars on the road. People at the time were 100% sure they would never catch on for the masses. Horses were reliable and were fueled by simply adding hay and water when needed which was available in most towns. Cars needed petrol and there were very few filling stations meaning your range was limited to the fuel you could take or you had to carefully plan your route to ensure refueling was possible.

Move onto today. Cars with internal combustion engines are reliable and are fueled simply by adding petrol or diesel which is available at any of the 1000's of filling stations and supermarkets across the country. Electric cars obviously need electricity and there are relatively few places when you can top up, you need to ensure you have enough when you set off or plan your route very carefully to ensure you pass a charging point.

Sound familiar.

Technology progresses so much faster today than it did 110 years ago, there is no way it will take the same time for electric cars to become viable transport as it did internal combustion powered cars.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Ed V

For me at least, the issue is less about the viability of electric cars - of that I have few doubts - but their emissions.

If the same emissions are being produced, merely away from the vehicle at a power station, why go electric?

Only perhaps if we go fully nuclear to produce the electricity? Of course, if the oil does run out, electric gives us options.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Andrew-T

If the same emissions are being produced, merely away from the vehicle at a power station, why go electric?

And mark my words, there will be more accidents because no-one can hear the gosh-darned things coming. We need a man with a red flag. Harrumph.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - dan86

If the same emissions are being produced, merely away from the vehicle at a power station, why go electric?

And mark my words, there will be more accidents because no-one can hear the gosh-darned things coming. We need a man with a red flag. Harrumph.

They could give the car a sort of ring tone so your Nissan leaf or gewiz could sound like a Ferrari or a jag.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - corax

And mark my words, there will be more accidents because no-one can hear the gosh-darned things coming. We need a man with a red flag. Harrumph.

You can hear them coming - most of the noise is from the tyres. Engine noise is only noticed from something like a TVR :)

At low speeds you have a point, although I would welcome some peace and cleaner air in built up areas.

Electric Cars - You Can Not be Serious! - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:...""If the same emissions are being produced, merely away from the vehicle at a power station, why go electric?""

At the moment all the fuss is about emissions, but as oil gets more scarce and expensive, we will be forced to rely more and more on renewable energy. The depletion of finite fossil fuels is an inescapable fact.

 

Value my car