The Roads - jamie745

For various reasons I've been all over the place this week. Mostly Suffolk & Essex and I have an observation;

The roads are abysmal.

I'm not talking about traffic. I mean the roads themselves. I have a comfortable, quiet, big car yet even I find most of the major routes in this part of the country almost intolerable.

The Government rakes in enough cash from motoring taxation, so lets stop throwing it at bus lanes, train tracks and 'cycling initiatives.' Let's actually put some back into where it comes from and start sorting this out because this is getting stupid.

I mean sort it properly. Not lay 12 foot of road to patch up the very worst bit - have you noticed the 'chessboard layout' of major routes now? - I mean properly fixed.

Consecutive decades of this 'that'll do' approach have left us with a horribly expensive job.

The Roads - Cyd

Yes. Quite.

Somewhere along the line Local or District Councils seem to have lost all sense of priority.

I live in Lutterworth. Recently we have had the pavements in town all ripped up (the tarmac variety) and replaced with lovely block paved pavements. It looks fantastic, but I hate to think what it cost - just think about how much it is to have your drive block paved - it's a very labour intensive process.

We've also had the pelican crossing replaced. It is now new, but is in the same place as the old one and has exactly the same functionality. So nothing gained.

They've also added a crossing point on a single width one way street. Can't help wondering why? This also had the effect of reducing the available street parking (30 mins limited) by two cars. Bet the local shops love that, lol!!!

So why do I mention these things?

Well, on the corner of George Street there is a large hole in the road which is right in the path of vehicles going round the corner. I have to be very careful in my van or most of the load tries to jump about in the back.
Slightly further out to the west of town is the Coventry Road. Near the Red Arrow, this road is little better than a farm track. It really rattles my van about (a loaded Dispatch with XL tyres). I just know it's wrecking my suspension and steering. It's not much better in my Saab. And you can't avoid the ruts because of the central crossing points.

Seems to me they should be concentrating on the basics of keeping the roads in good order and smooth to drive on before block paving pavements etc.

What really boils my buns is that this is my money they are spending from my council tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare

Agreed on all counts. It has reached a sad, sad state when I travel up the M6 for work and am overjoyed that a hole in the motorway surface has been filled in so that it jolts my suspension less.

The Roads - Avant

I agree: it's local authority budgets for most of the roads in question, but too many waste money on employing people with meaningless titles such as Environmental Diversity Officer (OK, I made that one up but you know what I mean) instead of spending it on essentials like road maintenance.

Does anyone know the answer to this question.... Inevitably road surfaces will wear out, but why do they have to form these ridiculous sharp-sided potholes? If the surface simply crumbled, it wouldn't be ideal but it would be easier to see and less damaging to tyres and wheels.

The Roads - gordonbennet

Felixstowe handles millions of tons of imports (things that we used to make here), most go by road.

Southampton Tilbury Portbury Dover etc all the same story, the roads around all these ports were never designed to cope with the traffic, but then massively increasing the population over the last 15 years especially, without the right infrastructure to service the extra demands was never going to work.

Same problem around the massive hub cetres where this imported tat is stored/distributed...ie Magna Park.

When we made things here the traffic was spread all over the country and certain areas had their specific traffic problems as fitted local industries, eg Longbridge for cars and Sheffield and Birmingham for steel, London for er must be something useful about it oh yes the M1 outbound.

Another 15 years should see complete gridlock on the peak import routes, road surface won't matter too much when you're stationary for hours on end.

Edited by gordonbennet on 18/09/2013 at 21:52

The Roads - daveyjp
Agree we have a lot of traffic, but so do other Countries, yet I go on their roads and they are faultless. This makes me wonder if there is something inherently wrong with our road construction technique and materials.

We also use our roads for all our services. Trenches under roads create weak spots when they are new, then we dig them up which wrecks them.

Do other countries not put services down roads?
The Roads - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:...""The Government rakes in enough cash from motoring taxation, so lets stop throwing it at bus lanes, train tracks and 'cycling initiatives.' ""

Better railways, bus services and cycling facilities would mean fewer vehicles on the roads, which would mean less wear to road surfaces.

The Roads - John Boy

Better railways, bus services and cycling facilities would mean fewer vehicles on the roads, which would mean less wear to road surfaces.

+1

The Roads - Cyd

thing is that for this relationship to work properly these sevices wouldn't just have to be "better", they would have to be MUCH BETTER.

And the real crux is, they aren't getting any better over long periods of time.

The Roads - galileo

Bus and train fares are too high except as a 'distress purchase', that is, only for those who don't have a reasonable alternative such as cycling or a car. Not everyone is fit enough to cycle up and down hills or wants to do so in bad weather or carrying heavy shopping.

The train fare for a fifteen mile round trip, for example, is in excess of the cost of a gallon of petrol, so 4 or 5 people can make the trip by car for the same outlay. If you have a car taxed, insured and depreciating why would you not use it, door to door, instead of fitting in with the vagaries and overcrowding of public transport?

One son abandoned the bus service to work as in 3 months the bus failed to turn up as scheduled on 5 occasions and was late on a further 8 - clearly not acceptable to him or his employer.

Another witnessed a commuter trying to get off a Transpennine train being swept back on by the rush of commuters joining to stand, sardine-like to Leeds.

Public transport has to be cheaper, more reliable and with adequate accommodation before I believe significant numbers will give up their car.

The Roads - jamie745

Better railways, bus services and cycling facilities would mean fewer vehicles on the roads, which would mean less wear to road surfaces.

Government has been using that as an excuse for not bothering to fix roads for years now.

'Oh we don't need to fix them, we'll just tax you off of them instead.'

It hasn't worked. It will never work and even taking every car off the roads of Britain will not do anything to fix the broken roads. Because they're already broken.

Improving a train will not fix a broken road. Only fixing a broken road can do that. Roads don't suddenly mend themselves because you've stopped driving on them.

The Roads - Leif

Better railways, bus services and cycling facilities would mean fewer vehicles on the roads, which would mean less wear to road surfaces.

Where I live, more cyclists would mean long traffic jams. As it is the presence of one lycra clad biklist causes a long tail back until a gap in oncoming traffic allows overtaking. Buses are even worse. So rather counterintuitively, more buses and more push bikes would mean more congestion and more pollution.

As for railways, they work well for the wealthy who can afford to buy an overpriced house close to the railway station. But for most people rail is impractical. I could not get to work by rail. Rail works for many, but there are limits to how many people it can carry simply because it often takes twice as long to get to work by rail compared to car simply because it is often necessary to take very indirect routes, or to use a service that stops at every lamppost.

The Roads - Bromptonaut


Where I live, more cyclists would mean long traffic jams. As it is the presence of one lycra clad biklist causes a long tail back until a gap in oncoming traffic allows overtaking. Buses are even worse. So rather counterintuitively, more buses and more push bikes would mean more congestion and more pollution.

I seriously doubt that's what happens in the real world. Cycle commuting in London has, in last 35yrs, moved from odd to mainstream. Numbers have doubled in last ten years and bikes account for 40% plus of vehicles st some key junctions, eg Theobalds Rd. Motor traffic is as slow as it ever was.

As for railways, they work well for the wealthy who can afford to buy an overpriced house close to the railway station. But for most people rail is impractical. I could not get to work by rail. Rail works for many, but there are limits to how many people it can carry simply because it often takes twice as long to get to work by rail compared to car simply because it is often necessary to take very indirect routes, or to use a service that stops at every lamppost.

Railways are alway going to be linear and of most use to those travelling into or between cities. To some extent the same is true of buses.

IIRC you are based in Luton which was never going to have the critical mass to support its own commuter rail service. Though having said that re-opening of the Dunstable line as either light rail or guided buses is stil on the cards. If on the other hand you commute from Luton to London the train is a no brainer. Even at season ticket rates it's cheaper or cost comparable with road transport.

In bigger cities commuter services that were run hourly and dying on their feet thirty years ago are now at their physical capacity. The line to Ilkley was singled in the early eighties due to falling traffic on the asthmatic old diesel trains. It's now electrified and at least partial re-doubling is on the cards. Thousands of people are off the roads leaving more capacity for those without an alternative.

The Roads - galileo

Jamie, if you want to see really bad roads visit West Yorkshire, Suffolk roads are in better condition and (apart fromA14) much less congested.

However, I agree with the rest of your analysis and comments.

The Roads - jamie745

Felixstowe handles millions of tons of imports (things that we used to make here), most go by road.

If we weren't making them here then the trucks would be going in the opposite direction, on the same road, to the same Port to export them. So I don't see your point.

Better railways, bus services and cycling facilities would mean fewer vehicles on the roads, which would mean less wear to road surfaces.

How does upgrading a cycle lane fill in a hole in the motorway? HOW?!?! Tell me how it does that!

No I'm sorry that's a completely pathetic argument and absolute rubbish. It's the total nonsense the Government has tried to shove down our throats for the last 15 odd years and it doesn't wash.

First off, there's no way trains, buses or bicycles will ever make a considerable dent in car usage. They're either too overpriced, too unreliable or just impractical. If I had to use a combination of them for everything I've done this week it'd take me about a month to do four days work.

Lastly, the biggest reason why your argument doesn't wash is that we're not talking about wear to road surfaces. We're talking about the road surface being practically all gone. The road is broken.

How will taking cars off of a broken road fix that road? It won't. Will it? You've got to spend the mega billions on updating the roads before you can start talking about 'reducing wear' on them. We're many years away from your argument being valid.

Edited by jamie745 on 19/09/2013 at 01:58

The Roads - alastairq

Consecutive decades of this 'that'll do' approach have left us with a horribly expensive job.

Nobody bothers to address 'the whole problem'' any more. We go though life merely 'tinkering' with issues. On another motoring aspect, the above sums up Ford's attitudes to problems they've encountered with their electronic software.....fix it just enough to eliminate that particular problem......''that'll do''.....instead of addressing the whole issue? Quality is no longer preferred over quantity. MAybe someone has shares ina 4x4 manufacturer? And why has the forum software eliminated all my paragraphs...before anyone complains?

Edited by alastairq on 19/09/2013 at 07:33

The Roads - Ordovices

I don't think Essex and Suffolk over a week are really a big enough sample to judge the state of the nation's roads.

In fact to quote yourself;

"No I'm sorry that's a completely pathetic argument and absolute rubbish"

The Roads - dan86

I agree the roads are in a state but in some places they are better than others round here in South London the roads are worse than that of a 3rd world country. With all the speed mountains and potholes. I was visiting family in Germany in the summer and I thought there roads were fabulous. So smooth amd less traffic.

Edited by dan86 on 19/09/2013 at 11:00

The Roads - jamie745

I don't think Essex and Suffolk over a week are really a big enough sample to judge the state of the nation's roads.

I've been driving for 11 years, it's not like I've only just been introduced to the concept of roads. I've always thought the roads pretty much everywhere are quite poor, but I'm rarely on the road constantly enough to really focus on it. When you're driving for 30 mins odd a day, you don't notice it. When you're driving for 5 hours, the state of the roads start to grind you down.

I'm yet to encounter anyone from any part of the country who says their roads are in good shape, so I think that's a fair sample.

The Roads - gordonbennet

If we weren't making them here then the trucks would be going in the opposite direction, on the same road, to the same Port to export them. So I don't see your point.

Strewth its like pulling teeth.

Back a few years we used to make things all over the country and sell those things to our own countrymen, all roads were routes for commercial traffic because it was a nationwide thing, not concentrated on corridors to import centres.

Yes we exported too, but containerisation wasn't the be all and end all as it is now, other docks existed so again spread about.

The Roads - V4 Heaven

I went away to foreign lands between Feb and Jun this year and you could easily see the deterioration of the roads around our way. Wiltshire roads seem to be just about holding on, but when I drive to work, I cross into Oxfordshire. There's an immediate drop in the quality of the roads. It's like driving on a patchwork quilt, albeit not a fluffy one!

The Roads - Ethan Edwards

If Scotland becomes independent, perhaps the cash we save can be better spent doing the roads.

Instead of the Barnett formula cash.....

Rant mode close.

Edited by Avant on 21/09/2013 at 00:28

The Roads - ripjean

As I understand it most new schemes (ped crossings, junction improvements etc) are capital funded (the government give money each year for new schemes) and maintenance is revenue funded (from local council tax). You cannot use the capital funding for maintenance. Therefore new road schemes have no bearing on the maintenance as they are from different budgets.

The Roads - ripjean

As I understand it most new schemes (ped crossings, junction improvements etc) are capital funded (the government give money each year for new schemes) and maintenance is revenue funded (from local council tax). You cannot use the capital funding for maintenance. Therefore new road schemes have no bearing on the maintenance as they are from different budgets.

The Roads - Bromptonaut

Some of the London boroughs, Camden for example, have a bottomless slush fund of parking revenue for street imrovements. Don't think it's available for repairs though.

Local roads in Northants were very bad after last winter as frost and water undermined previous patches and loose carriageway margins. Mending over spring and summer has considerably improved situation but another wet autumn and/or long cold spell will no doubt take us back to square one.

The Roads - barney100

Money gathered from motorists dosen't go to roas improvement on the whole. It goes to other areas like MP's expenses and overseas aid, it's just anotjer source of government income, there again I moan when services are cut so I can't have it all ways.

The Roads - Bromptonaut

Money gathered from motorists dosen't go to roas improvement on the whole. It goes to other areas like MP's expenses and overseas aid, it's just anotjer source of government income, there again I moan when services are cut so I can't have it all ways.

Indeed. Neither fuel duty nor VED is earmarked to roads/motoring. In spite of the term 'Road Fund Licence' still being in use the Road Fund was abolished by Winston Churchill as Chancellor in the twenties/thirties.

That's why cyclists get uppity about accusations that they don't pay for the roads.

Local Authority receipts from parking and fines are supposed to be used for road or public transport improvements but I suspect 'smoke and mirrors' means a fair bit is sucked back into general revenue.

The Roads - Bromptonaut

Money gathered from motorists dosen't go to roas improvement on the whole. It goes to other areas like MP's expenses and overseas aid, it's just anotjer source of government income, there again I moan when services are cut so I can't have it all ways.

Indeed. Neither fuel duty nor VED is earmarked to roads/motoring. In spite of the term 'Road Fund Licence' still being in use the Road Fund was abolished by Winston Churchill as Chancellor in the twenties/thirties.

That's why cyclists get uppity about accusations that they don't pay for the roads.

Local Authority receipts from parking and fines are supposed to be used for road or public transport improvements but I suspect 'smoke and mirrors' means a fair bit is sucked back into general revenue.

The Roads - Snakey

Its the hypocrisy that gets me - we're continually told theres not enough money to repair the roads, yet bus lanes seem to get funding. We're told that the potholes caused by the ice cannot be repaired, yet speed bumps can be built!

A perfect example is where I live in Durham - a 30 mph limit road but with no close housing (fields on one side, housing set right back on the other) is potholed/cracked and in a rubbish state. Just a couple of months ago the council decided to drop 3 speed bumps there - leaving the rest of the road alone. Of course I'm sure its a total coincidence that a councillor lives on the strech opposite the new speed bumps. And doesn't drive.

The Roads - jamie745

You cannot use the capital funding for maintenance.

Why not?

Indeed. Neither fuel duty nor VED is earmarked to roads/motoring.

Perhaps it should be, given the fact nothing is being spent on the roads and everytime we complain, the Government threatens us with increasing those taxes you mention. The Government sure seems to feel the two are linked, even if you don't.

In spite of the term 'Road Fund Licence' still being in use the Road Fund was abolished by Winston Churchill as Chancellor in the twenties/thirties.

Oh for goodness sake is it possible to mention road funding in any thread without you bringing this up? We've been over it about 1,307 times now and you weren't even provoked. Presumably this is your way of telling me to shut up and stop complaining because motorists have less right to criticise Government spending priorities than cyclists do.

If a cyclist comes on here complaining about anything, you'll respond reasonably.

If I complain about poor roads, you just tell me some nonsense about Churchill a century ago. I wonder why you even come on here because you clearly hate cars. I don't waste my time on bicycle sites do i?

Its the hypocrisy that gets me - we're continually told theres not enough money to repair the roads, yet bus lanes seem to get funding. We're told that the potholes caused by the ice cannot be repaired, yet speed bumps can be built!

Quite. They're all funded out of these ringfenced funds Bromptonaut says don't exist though, that's how they do it. Mythical funding.

Government keeps telling us 'x billions is being made available for cycling initiatives' etc, yet a 30 year overdue upgrade for the A14 apparently has to be tolled because we can't afford it.

Government needs to resort its priorities. If we can't afford to upgrade the most vital haulage route then we certainly can't afford cycle and bus lanes.

Edited by jamie745 on 19/09/2013 at 20:11

The Roads - Graham567

2nd year in of a 3 year project to replace ALL the roads in Blackpool.

We now have very few bad roads left and lovely smooth roads everywhere else.

Blackpool might get put down for our tacky seaside resort but the roads could be the envy of the rest of the country.

The building and infrastucture invertment going on in Blackpool at the moment has to be seen to be believed and the roads are only part of it.Say what you like of Blackpool but they are trying hard to make it better.

(Sits back and waits the Blackpool bashing brigade start.Blah Blah yeah right)

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare

2nd year in of a 3 year project to replace ALL the roads in Blackpool.

We now have very few bad roads left and lovely smooth roads everywhere else.

Blackpool might get put down for our tacky seaside resort but the roads could be the envy of the rest of the country.

The building and infrastucture invertment going on in Blackpool at the moment has to be seen to be believed and the roads are only part of it.Say what you like of Blackpool but they are trying hard to make it better.

(Sits back and waits the Blackpool bashing brigade start.Blah Blah yeah right)

I'm hoping that the regeneration carries on down the A583 to us here in Preston!

The Roads - Bromptonaut

Oh for goodness sake is it possible to mention road funding in any thread without you bringing this up? We've been over it about 1,307 times now and you weren't even provoked. Presumably this is your way of telling me to shut up and stop complaining because motorists have less right to criticise Government spending priorities than cyclists do.

If a cyclist comes on here complaining about anything, you'll respond reasonably.

If I complain about poor roads, you just tell me some nonsense about Churchill a century ago. I wonder why you even come on here because you clearly hate cars. I don't waste my time on bicycle sites do i?

JAmie, howeve much people winge about motoring taxes the simple FACT is that none of them are intended to pay for roads. The 'Road Fund' myth is still common belief which is why I continue to challenge it.

I thoroughly enjoy driving either of our current two Berlingos just as I did my previous Xantia, 205, BX etc*. The roads generally don't seem all that bad, certainly better than when I was a youngster. Not just major builds like the A14, A43 (M1 to M40) and long sections of the A46 but many bypasses (Skipton, Settle, Towcester) and realignmnets to remove dangerous bends etc.

* All have proper tyres and decently pliable suspension. If you to 'sporty' and driove ultra low profile bands on suspension optimesd for handling YMMV

The Roads - jamie745

JAmie, howeve much people winge about motoring taxes the simple FACT is that none of them are intended to pay for roads

Well perhaps they should be, because the current system seems to invent plenty of money for buses and trains, but nothing for roads, yet it's the motorist who's funding the rest of it.

The Treasury takes in over £50billion a year from the motorist - and that's only direct taxation - so it's not unreasonable to expect a return for our outlay. Especially as motoring taxes are now openly punitive. It's all part of an anti-car, politically correct agenda and they don't even pretend otherwise.

You say it's a simple fact, yet anytime we complain about poor road maintenance, the Government instantly threaten us with increases in fuel tax. They say 'if the motorist wants better roads they need to pay for it.' Yet they'll continue to subsidise trains and buses and I don't see cyclists being forced to pay out for cycle lanes.

The 'Road Fund' myth is still common belief which is why I continue to challenge it.

The fact it's common belief shows Churchill didn't do a very good job doesn't it. Perhaps he should've abolished road tax rather than merely rename it.

It's very Gordon Brown that. Renaming a tax, increasing it and then swearing blind it doesn't exist.

The Roads - galileo

Jamie, your debates with Bromptonaut somehow remind me of 'Yes Minister', I hope neither of you take offence at this. Which of you would be best as Sir Humphrey and which Jim Hacker?

(Apologies if you are too young to remember this series!)

The Roads - Bromptonaut

Jamie, your debates with Bromptonaut somehow remind me of 'Yes Minister', I hope neither of you take offence at this. Which of you would be best as Sir Humphrey and which Jim Hacker?

(Apologies if you are too young to remember this series!)

Can I be Sir Humphrey?

I've got 10 more weeks as a Civil Servant before being redundant and even metaphorically being a Perm Sec would be the pinnacle of my career :-)

The Roads - galileo

Jamie, your debates with Bromptonaut somehow remind me of 'Yes Minister', I hope neither of you take offence at this. Which of you would be best as Sir Humphrey and which Jim Hacker?

(Apologies if you are too young to remember this series!)

Can I be Sir Humphrey?

I've got 10 more weeks as a Civil Servant before being redundant and even metaphorically being a Perm Sec would be the pinnacle of my career :-)

Granted! Perfect for the role!

(My sympathy re the redundancy; one of my sons is having to pursue employers through legal process for redundancy pay due to him, they have so far ignored solicitor's letter, failed to provide his P45, generally a bunch of ****s, I trust your situation and prospects of employment are better!)

The Roads - Andrew-T

Yes, the roads are a bit beaten up. It may be something to do with the longish spell of harsh weather last spring. And the council authorities don't have a lot of spare cash, and there are probably fewer repair crews because of workforce cutbacks.

On the other hand an awful lot of people want (or possibly have) to do a great deal of driving, which tends to wear out the roads quickly. And when they can't do that as comfortably as they would like, they let off steam on this forum.

Even if cash were available it would probably not be enough to deal with all the damage we are told about, given the cost of properly repairing one pothole. And if a thorough repair programme was started, the same drivers would just moan about all the one-way traffic delays they had to suffer.

Still, it all makes amusing reading on here ....

The Roads - Snakey

Yes, the roads are a bit beaten up. It may be something to do with the longish spell of harsh weather last spring. And the council authorities don't have a lot of spare cash, and there are probably fewer repair crews because of workforce cutbacks.

On the other hand an awful lot of people want (or possibly have) to do a great deal of driving, which tends to wear out the roads quickly. And when they can't do that as comfortably as they would like, they let off steam on this forum.

Even if cash were available it would probably not be enough to deal with all the damage we are told about, given the cost of properly repairing one pothole. And if a thorough repair programme was started, the same drivers would just moan about all the one-way traffic delays they had to suffer.

Still, it all makes amusing reading on here ....

Spoken like a true councillor. Don't give 'em anything but take plenty and tell them to stop moaning.

The Roads - Ordovices

My recent journeys have taken me from the midlands to these destinations and around their environs:

Inverness (M6/A74M/A701/M9/A9) and back (returning via Edinburgh and the A7/ M6),

Bristol, (both M6/M5 and M40/M4),

Dover (M6/M42/M40/M25/M20)

Plymouth (M6/M5/A38),

Bristol to Portsmouth (M4/A34/M3/M27),

North Hampshire (M6/M42/M40/M25/M3).

Many local miles in N Staffs.

I have not been disappointed with the state of any of these roads (materially) and this is within the last few weeks. Maybe the OP was just unlucky?

Two winters ago the weather did quite rip up some roads, especially in the Scottish borders, but the ones I have used have been dealt with.

If roads are being worn out then surely it is owing to the volume of traffic using them. I'm sure many people in this forum will have noticed a significant increase over the past 30 years, since a car became de rigeur for every little housewife and student; and two plus car households the norm rather than the exception.

If roads are falling to pieces, improve the public transport infrastructure, reduce the volume of traffic and allow the authorities to catch up.

The Roads - jamie745

I don't buy this explanation of council cuts. Councils have plenty of money, they just waste it on 'Environmental Disablement Officers' and roundabout ornaments, rather than on things which matter.

Remember the days before Gordon Brown? When the finances were in good shape and the books reasonably balanced? We had regional DVLA offices and every streetlight turned on so we can afford them, yet they're cut while councillors allowances rise.

The Roads - Bromptonaut

I don't buy this explanation of council cuts. Councils have plenty of money, they just waste it on 'Environmental Disablement Officers' and roundabout ornaments, rather than on things which matter.

Remember the days before Gordon Brown? When the finances were in good shape and the books reasonably balanced? We had regional DVLA offices and every streetlight turned on so we can afford them, yet they're cut while councillors allowances rise.

You're too young to remember the Thatcher or Major eras in which the NAtional Debt/GDP ratio was as bad or worse than now?

OTOH if you're that young you might recall overcrowded schools with leaking roofs and the 'squatter camp' in Lincolns Inn Fields?

The Roads - jamie745

You're too young to remember the Thatcher or Major eras in which the NAtional Debt/GDP ratio was as bad or worse than now?

Trust you to cherry pick one statistic which on it's own means very little and doesn't actually matter. The key point is through the 1990s, debt and deficit were both going broadly downwards where as the Cameron Administration will likely leave Downing Street spending 95p of every £1 Gordon Brown was spending. The public finances ruin is the fault of the last lot, who you've been known to defend on here.

Also don't forget by the end of the 1990s, our currency was very strong with inflation low.

OTOH if you're that young you might recall overcrowded schools with leaking roofs and the 'squatter camp' in Lincolns Inn Fields?

I'm 29 and can't recall a leaky roof at school.

The Roads - Andrew-T

I'm 29 and can't recall a leaky roof at school.

Ah, 29. So you can have at most one and a half decades of interest in politics. Far too little to have reached a balanced view, so your outbursts on here will be excused. :-)

The Roads - jamie745

Ah, 29. So you can have at most one and a half decades of interest in politics

People of your age might be unaware of the fact history is recorded across many media and available to view for people of all ages.

So everyone over 50 knows everything do they? Always right are they? Yeah. Haha. It's that generation who were running tiny banks lending 125% mortgages to people at 9x salary, so I think we can conclude age alone teaches you nothing.

Edited by jamie745 on 22/09/2013 at 03:16

The Roads - Andrew-T

People of your age might be unaware of the fact history is recorded across many media and available to view for people of all ages.

So everyone over 50 knows everything do they? Always right are they? Yeah. Haha. It's that generation who were running tiny banks lending 125% mortgages to people at 9x salary, so I think we can conclude age alone teaches you nothing.

Sniffy bad-tempered remarks like these aren't really worth a response. My comment was light-hearted and tongue-in-cheek. You chose to make inferences based on nothing more than your own prejudice. I'll leave it at that, as it has nothing to do with motoring.

The Roads - SteveLee

You're too young to remember the Thatcher or Major eras in which the NAtional Debt/GDP ratio was as bad or worse than now?

OTOH if you're that young you might recall overcrowded schools with leaking roofs and the 'squatter camp' in Lincolns Inn Fields?

That old tractor-production chestnut the one-eyed Brownites trot out. GDP is simply the amount of money sloshing around in the economy so debt against GDP can be used as a smokescreen to hide huge levels of debt - as Brown did for over 10 years. GDP is a volume of movement of cash whether you earned it or borrowed it, if I earned £200k and spent it all and you borrowed £200k and spent it all - our GDP would be identical 'cept you are left up to you eyeballs in debt. If I borrowed £100K and spent £200K and you borrowed £400k and spent £800k, our debt to GDP ratios would be identical. If you spent all that money on one-legged gay and lesbian window cleaner associations - that total waste of money would still count as "product" according to GDP - as would investing it in training plumbers instead of importing them - sadly the money was mostly wasted rather than invested.

The GDP increase was purely debt-fuelled. In 1997 the country owed roughly £300bn - debt which took decades and two world wars to accrue - thirteen years later "we" owed over £600bn - not including almost the same again in "off sheet" debt - PFI etc - interest alone now costs more than the defence budget - and that's during a global era of low interest rates! What do we have to show for the doubling of our national debt? World class healthcare? (budget doubled) World class education? (budget doubled and tuition fees introduced) World class roads? Railways? Where DID the money go? I think some the (non)job titles Jamie mentioned covers some of the bases! Of course the population of the country increased by more than the GDP in that period - meaning that (per head) we have actually all ended up poorer - except the rich and the political classes raking in their unearned incomes.

The Roads - Ordovices

I thought we still had regional DVLA offices?

The Roads - Ordovices

I thought we still had regional DVLA offices?

The Roads - dan86

AFAIK my local dvla office is still open. Witch would be Sidcup in Kent (south east London?)

The Roads - Bromptonaut

I thought we still had regional DVLA offices?

In course of being closed down. Reg transfers for example are now done through Swansea though some work is being done at Beverley (ER).

The Roads - Ordovices

I don't buy this explanation of council cuts. Councils have plenty of money, they just waste it on 'Environmental Disablement Officers' and roundabout ornaments, rather than on things which matter.

Considering the lengths that you usually go to, this was a particularly facile statement. Perhaps you could back this up with some evidence?

Is the environment not worth spending money on? I agree with the inference that we waste far too much money on the disabled, though.

The Roads - Avant

"Is the environment not worth spending money on? I agree with the inference that we waste far too much money on the disabled, though."

I made up a similar imaginary job title further up the thread. We're not saying that local authorities shouldn't cosider the evnvironment - it was just an example of a salary spent on a pen-pusher which might have been better prioritised.

The Roads - jamie745

The best ones are actually real. Here's a few examples I've compiled of 100% genuine jobs.

Tower Hamlets Parking Services recently recruited a Policy & Performance Enhancement Manager, on a salary of over £42,000.

How about this one, from early 2013 with councils supposedly in the midst of savage cutbacks with the evil Government not giving them enough to keep libraries open or streetlights on; Lambeth Borough Council employed a Senior Policy Equalities and Performance Officer at over £40,000.

The very same Council, in these very same cash-strapped times has also employed a Social Media Officer on £35,000. Here is a genuine excerpt from the job specification when advertised;

Specifically, you will be responsible for promoting HS2 across social media, including Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Vimeo and YouTube. You will develop and implement a social media strategy and engagement programme, and stay abreast of the latest social media trends.

In other words, the only person arguing online in favour of HS2 is probably in the employ of Lambeth Council.

The best for this stuff though, has to be the NHS. In 2012, the NHS in Leeds recruited a Head of Insight & Feedback for a salary of over £77,000. They also recruited a Head of Strategic Intelligence on the same salary, reporting to the (really not making this up) Director of Open Information.

Austerity indeed.

The Roads - Andrew-T

"Spoken like a true councillor. Don't give 'em anything but take plenty and tell them to stop moaning."

I've never been, or tried to be, a councillor. But if you disagree so strongly with their results and believe you know a better way, go and get elected so we can all wait for better things. And I do know that our local county (Cheshire West) is pretty short just now.

The moaning usually amounts to objecting to paying taxes and then complaining when there is not enough public money to spend. Oh I forgot - it's meant to be other people's money - sorry.

Edited by Andrew-T on 20/09/2013 at 19:35

The Roads - dadbif
Remember the financial crash a few years ago? Icelandic banks? Local councils who cannot afford to repair potholes had billions of council tax payers money tucked away to pay their gold plated pensions. That's where all the money we pay goes to.
It's time for it to stop.
The Roads - alastairq

###it was just an example of a salary spent on a pen-pusher which might have been better prioritised.###

Before you start knocking the 'pen-pushers'..[I have no idea, or real interest, in what you do for a living]....just consider what life for you would be like without them?

Probably something like 1920's Mali?

Well, the poor old civil service pen-pushers are being cut left, right & centre...and everybody else is now feeling their loss, and complaining about it!

Complaning, without realising [or indeed, caring much?] the reasons for those complaints.

yet, whenever HMRC [for one example] take an age to respond to your query, or indeed, you find yourselves in an endless queue simply to do the most trivial of administrative tasks, perhaps better to remember your thoughts on 'pen pushers'...& why they are so necessary to our society and way-of-life?

Virtually every aspect of all our weiry little lives is governed to one extent or another by pen-pushers....we cannot do wthout them...yet we are happy to denigrate their very existance, especially when we ourselves, even at our least selfish mode, are'inconveneinced' by hteir actions, or , lack of action [brought on by staff reductions without a fall-off of workload]

I'm a Civil Servant....have been for over 16 years now...I don't push a pen, except to write up my reports,etc...and, unlike Bromptonaut, I'm not in danger of any sort of redundancy [although I can take VERS, or could have done, anyway].....and \i spend all day long doing the sorts of things most of you only do for an hour or so a day, or as part of your 'corporate entertainment'...doing, to a very high standard too....

But, I am happy to strike in supprt of those pen-pushers who lack the sort of clout I & my colleagues have....and in doing so, I haven't the slightest care in the world what joe public thinks about me, or those pen-pushers....

Neither do I care that joe public has to pay me out of public funds....!

we do our job extremely well, to the highest standards, and cheaper than any private sector companies can , with better results.

This have now been proven..oooh, at least 3 times in the past ten years...

I fully intend to carry on working until past the age of 70......just to annoy senior management, and keep the youngsters out.

After that, I wont care anyway.....but I will always support the pen pushers, because, wthout them, my job would stop, and thus the end product of my work would cease, and a lot of very special people will suddenly no longer have the skills they need to do their work......and you lot would become very insecure!

The Roads - Avant

This thread started with a perfectly reasonable proposition that too many of Britain's roads are in a poor state. Some of us take the view - again surely quite reasonable even if not all agree - that local authorities have their priorities wrong, even to the extent of creating some office jobs which would appear to many of us to be less important than keeping the roads safe.

At no point are we attacking the Civil Service or indeed clerical workers in general, most of whom I'm the first to agree do a very necessary job.

Let's keep the thread on track.

The Roads - Ordovices

The thread actually started by citing a week driving around two, atypical counties, whose population adds up to less than greater manchester yet has six times the area, as the basis of deciding that Britain's roads are on the brink of collapse (justifiable hyperbole, exagerration precedent has already been set).

The posts created by some councils may seem wasteful, but until you see the terms of reference for the jobs, the job title is what skewed views are based on.

The Roads - jamie745

Before you start knocking the 'pen-pushers'..[I have no idea, or real interest, in what you do for a living]....just consider what life for you would be like without them?

Probably something like 1920's Mali?

I think we can cope without Climate Change Officers, Directors of Insight & Feedback and those pathetic Equalities Officers. Those are genuine job titles of people employed by many councils - Oxford City Council being one of the worst. I haven't made them up.

Remember the financial crash a few years ago? Icelandic banks? Local councils who cannot afford to repair potholes had billions of council tax payers money tucked away to pay their gold plated pensions. That's where all the money we pay goes to.
It's time for it to stop.

Absolutely right. Councils should not have surplus funds to store in overseas banks. If they've got that much surplus, they should be cutting council tax with it.

The moaning usually amounts to objecting to paying taxes and then complaining when there is not enough public money to spend. Oh I forgot - it's meant to be other people's money - sorry.

Here we get to the crux of the issue. There is plenty of money to spend. There is enough to pay for the things the country needs. My problem is hundreds of billions are wasted on things we don't need. For every £1 spent on something good, we somehow need to spend a tenner on a useless bureaucrat doing nothing of any value.

The Roads - corax

mean sort it properly. Not lay 12 foot of road to patch up the very worst bit - have you noticed the 'chessboard layout' of major routes now? - I mean properly fixed.

I don't know which part of Essex you mean, but where I live the roads are fine. And the ones that aren't are resurfaced at night which stops disruption and leaves the road layers to get on with their job, and receive overtime, which they deserve.

Yes, I'm very satisfied with the roads around here.

But not with the quote system on this forum, which is absolutely useless, and needs to be changed to something that works properly.

The Roads - gordonbennet
But not with the quote system on this forum, which is absolutely useless, and needs to be changed to something that works properly.

Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

The Roads - corax
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

The Roads - gordonbennet
Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Bwahaha, pull the other one, i'm a thick as two planks lorry driver and in the words of Deputy Dawg ''doooon't you forgeyt it''

anyway we're not Luddites, we're fully paid up members of the ''If it ain't broke don't fix it club''.

Very pretty those three blue lines were, any advance on three.

:-))

The Roads - Avant

I've never bothered with blue lines. If I want to quote something so as to reply to it, I just cut and paste it and put it in inverted commas to make clear it's a quote.

The Roads - wrangler_rover

Let's look at this from another angle.

Over the past 50 years, car technology has improved in leaps and bunds to give more efficient, more powerful and cleaner cars.

I am not a civil engineer but has road building technology and materials used improved at all over the last 50 years?

As a layman on the subject, the rate at which some new roads deteriorate and need repair or resurfacing work, it begs the questions are they no fit for purpose, have they been built on the cheap or are the materials used simply not up to the job?

I suspect the answer is that they are not fit for purpose and the materials used are not up to the job because the roads have been built on the cheap.

The Roads - Sofa Spud

QUOTE:...""I've never bothered with blue lines. If I want to quote something so as to reply to it, I just cut and paste it and put it in inverted commas to make clear it's a quote.""

Me too! I'm computer-literate and have been for years and even I can't get the blue lines to work properly so I don't use them.

The Roads - Bromptonaut

QUOTE:...""I've never bothered with blue lines. If I want to quote something so as to reply to it, I just cut and paste it and put it in inverted commas to make clear it's a quote.""

Me too! I'm computer-literate and have been for years and even I can't get the blue lines to work properly so I don't use them.

They're a pain if you try and edit between them or whern the double blue line 'requote' is in play. The quotemark item on the toolbar, while not bombproof, doesn't test patience to its limit.

The Roads - Ordovices

You would expect that the civil engineers and bean counters would work together to achieve a result that would be economical from the point of view of longevity balanced against price.

I would suspect that we could manufacture roads that would last in perpetuity (A50 Derby to Stoke road springs to mind), but would they be economical and environmentally sustainable (eg cost, noise, pollution etc) or we could resort to forest fire road construction to be renewed monthly/weekly at mionimal cost (fill and roll).

As I have said before, my experience of Britain's roads has not been as gloomy as some (or maybe my expectations have been better managed).

The Roads - John Boy
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

The Roads - John Boy
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

The Roads - gordonbennet

Bonkers the lot of you..:-)

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare
Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

win!

The Roads - mss1tw

Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

win!

;-)

The Roads - John Boy

Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

win!

;-)

Look out, Avant's coming!

The Roads - Bobbin Threadbare

Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

win!

;-)

Look out, Avant's coming!

You're all really silly and I will have no part in this nonsense

The Roads - John Boy

Corax try this, first quote previous message, then type yours, then last of all edit the quoted message, doing it that way does seem to work, and you can play silly blighters with the blue lines..;)

Cheers GB, not as savvy or educated as you. Perhaps your post should be put up the top as a sticky for other luddites like me :)

Sorry, just taking up gordonbennet's challenge to produce 4 blue lines.

I see your 4 blue lines and raise you.

First one to get a line of them across the page?

I

will

win!

;-)

Look out, Avant's coming!

You're all really silly and I will have no part in this nonsense

Nearly there, Bobbin!

The Roads - Avant

"You're all really silly and I will have no part in this nonsense."

I win, because I (and Sofa Spud) can do it without any blue lines at all.

(But I've no objection to people being silly - why not? It's fun.)

The Roads - John F

Perhaps the above is the aerial view of the M1 in 2200?

I have just returned from driving in New Jersey where the roads are wide and you hardly ever see a field; just forest.

Those of you who occasionally fly will see just how little space our roads occupy. All of them, including country roads, need to be twice as wide. Even then they would be virtually unnoticeable at 5,000 feet.

There is far too much value ascribed to our so-called agricultural land. It supports hardly any jobs and swallows huge subsidies because food is grown far cheaper elsewhere, mainly nearer the equator. Let's have a lot more liebensraum and garden city-type developments and just a few narrower fields by the sides of decent roads.

The Roads - Andrew-T

There is far too much value ascribed to our so-called agricultural land. It supports hardly any jobs and swallows huge subsidies because food is grown far cheaper elsewhere, mainly nearer the equator. Let's have a lot more liebensraum and garden city-type developments and just a few narrower fields by the sides of decent roads.

I'm afraid I disagree. Although I am an intermittent motorist and occasionally must get somewhere quickly, I enjoy driving rural roads more than Mways. I like to feel in closer touch with 'the landscape'. Too many people see the UK as an unlimited space to be turned into depressing job-creating or revenue-earning area, such as is found on the edge of almost any place with a population over 1000. You don't mean 'lebensraum' (living space) but 'fahrensraum' or driving space.

We were reminded this morning that the UK only produces about a third of the food we eat. We have to buy the rest from overseas, which seems OK at the moment despite a negative balance of payments. If things go a bit pear-shaped we may need to Dig For Victory again - not easy growing things on tarmac or concrete.

The Roads - gordonbennet

Well said Andrew T, i'm in your club.

Far too much of this country being concreted over, more housing for more people to stock more warehouses with Chinese tat, need more roads to get more lorries from the containerbase to the warehouse, need more housing then for the people to get to work at the warehouses and on it goes.

Enough already.

The Roads - John Boy

GordonBennet said "Well said Andrew T, I'm in your club."

So am I.

The Roads - corax

And the food may be grown cheaper, but it takes huge resources to fly it here, and isn't as fresh.

But I'm afraid I've been spoilt by the most incredible banquet from my allotment this year.

The Roads - mss1tw

Well said Andrew T, i'm in your club.

Far too much of this country being concreted over, more housing for more people to stock more warehouses with Chinese tat, need more roads to get more lorries from the containerbase to the warehouse, need more housing then for the people to get to work at the warehouses and on it goes.

Enough already.

Please report to the GDP re-eduction program for a top up of consumer fluid.

The Roads - John F

You don't mean 'lebensraum' (living space) but 'fahrensraum' or driving space.

we may need to Dig For Victory again - not easy growing things on tarmac or concrete.

I mean both, Andrew [thanks for correcting my hasty mis-spelling]. I share your enjoyment of the countryside (there's still loads of it even within 20 miles of Trafalgar Sq), which would be magnified if our rural roads were wider and smoother.

Clearly food is so cheap that few people can be bothered to grow it - much easier to drive to a large shed and collect packets of washed veg. I appreciate most have small or no gardens, but those that do rarely use them for food. Hardly seems worth growing apples commercially either.

The Roads - Andrew-T

"food is so cheap that few people can be bothered to grow it"

It is cheap, certainly using historical comparisons, for which we can thank the supermarkets, along with their other successes in covering more ground with tarmac, of course. Meanwhile accommodation has become so expensive that many people are said to live in 'poverty'. And many of them don't have much idea of where food comes from (I mean cows' milk, potatoes etc), never mind what to do to grow any of it. But one day we may need to relearn those skills?