How German cars beat British motors

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 09:14
How German cars beat British motors - John Boy

BBC News item for forthcoming TV programme:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23406467

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 11:34
How German cars beat British motors - craig-pd130

Good article, which can be summed up in two extracted paragraphs:

"Instead of embracing new technology and tapping the expanding European markets, (British manufacturers) shrank from Continental competition and preferred to sell cheap cars to Britain's former colonies."

"In Germany, management and unions worked closely together in the interests of the common good. Indeed, by law all major German firms are required to set up Works Councils, where the bosses and the unions must work together 'in a spirit of mutual trust'. In Britain, by contrast, car factories in the 1960s and 1970s became daily battlegrounds, where militant shop stewards and complacent managers fought out an overt class war."


Of course, Germany had millions pumped into its economy after WW2 which helped no end in restarting its economy. But the British motor industry (including the motorcycle manufacturers) failed because of years of cynical under-investment and a 'this-will-do' approach to development and manufacturing.

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 12:26
How German cars beat British motors - barney100

I remember an article about an British officer who at the end of WW2 who was given the task of getting VW back into producing cars. Pity he didn't turn up at our car makers. Is it not possible for us to get a good car manufacturing company going here again?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 12:51
How German cars beat British motors - HandCart

Maybe it all stems from Thatcher.

Let the Japanese set up factories here and them take the risk instead.

Manufacturing is a dirty word.

Better for British investors to reap the rewards from privatising utilities and collateralised debt obligations.

?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 13:46
How German cars beat British motors - quizman

I can't understand whether you think it was a good thing for Mrs Thatcher to encourage Japanese firms to employ Brits and build cars, many of which are exported?

Or do you blame her for the downfall of British car manufacture?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 15:14
How German cars beat British motors - HandCart

The major car manufacturers in Britain in the 70s were plagued and brought to the brink by over-powerful trade unions. But I think rather than bother trying to reform and arrive at a reasonable, valid level of power and foster good and decent industrial relations, Thatcher more took the view of letting those companies go to the wall and good riddance and washing her hands of it all. Absolutely the Japanese firms provided employment, which is a good thing. But Barney’s question was “Is it not possible for us to get a good car manufacturing company going here again?”, and personally I’d be very surprised if it happened any time soon. I don’t blame Thatcher 100% directly, but in her own words it was her intent to steer Britain away from manufacturing and into “the services industry”. Thus were the seeds sown, and along came making quick profits instead from carpetbagging on privatisations and encouraging the working class to get into the money-go-round of share-dealing and property-dealing and buy-to-let. All very well on the surface while it lasted, but the house of cards was exposed, eventually. So, how many are nowadays prepared to invest in manufacturing? How many are prepared to take-on a degree in mechanical engineering rather than media studies? How many aspire to anything except winning-over Simon Cowell or becoming a footballer’s wife? Okay, I’m stretching into hyperbole a little, but my point is, I think Britons’ mindsets are now too-far removed to have much hope of building-up a genuinely competitive car manufacturing concern of its own.

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 20:04
How German cars beat British motors - corax

The major car manufacturers in Britain in the 70s were plagued and brought to the brink by over-powerful trade unions. But I think rather than bother trying to reform and arrive at a reasonable, valid level of power and foster good and decent industrial relations, Thatcher more took the view of letting those companies go to the wall and good riddance and washing her hands of it all.

Thatcher washed her hands of it because she couldn't reason with the trade unions any more. Their demands got ridiculous. And why keep subsidising companies when they aren't making decent products that work? The management were a farce.

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 15:11
How German cars beat British motors - madf

Maybe it all stems from Thatcher.

Let the Japanese set up factories here and them take the risk instead.

Manufacturing is a dirty word.

Better for British investors to reap the rewards from privatising utilities and collateralised debt obligations.

?

Obviously not a reader of UK history.

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 15:45
How German cars beat British motors - barney100

We are certainly good at building cars for others...Nissan, Honda, Minis. Why on earth can't we give it a go again with a different mind set to the 80s.

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 17:10
How German cars beat British motors - Collos25

Most of these are just assembled in the UK to sell in Europe a way of geting round the import duty.A few assembly sheds do not make car manufacturers unlike Japan ,Korea ,Germany ,France where large factories make the components to actually make cars.I believe the turnover of Stuttgart motors (Bosch,DB,Porsche)is greater than all the uk motor industry.

Edited by Collos25 on 02/08/2013 at 17:10

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 17:38
How German cars beat British motors - HandCart

Collos has summarised what I was trying to get across, Barney: Manufacturing, from the 80s, was allowed to decay to the point where it is now difficult to see it being reviveable. And can you see a British concern putting in the investment to set up a car factory from scratch?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 18:08
How German cars beat British motors - galileo

Manufacturing in Britain has run down gradually over the last 50 years. The textile industry, for example, had an associated engineering industry which, in the 1950s and 1960s exported machinery all over the world; this was then used to produce textiles at much lower labour rates and the British public has taken advantage of the lower prices of imported goods.

The same process applied to most other industries, lower labour costs overseas, exchange rates, UK taxation and business rates (and, in the 1970s and 1980s, militant unions and weak management) all contributed to this.

UK governments of ALL parties failed to understand and take the right corrective actions. The UK public is perhaps less patriotic in their purchasing than German or French consumers, who may support home industries to a greater extent?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 19:54
How German cars beat British motors - Andrew-T

UK governments of ALL parties failed to understand and take the right corrective actions. The UK public is perhaps less patriotic in their purchasing than German or French consumers, who may support home industries to a greater extent?

I don't think government involvement in major manufacturing has a very good record. Just recall the great success of Linwood making Imps back in the 60s. As a rule government interferes to solve employment problems rather than building a national engineering base. When such projects fail to last very long, the sites have to be cleared and the large relocated populations found new jobs again. Consett steelworks? Llanwern?

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Fri 2 Aug 2013 21:44
How German cars beat British motors - hillman

I read that the Japanes workforces lined up by their workstations before work and sang the Company song before beginning. They also had a method of work that was very meticulous in its organisation. The UK workers would laugh when they heard of the song and the 'subservient' workforce but as the management found their market disappearing they sent observers to Japan. The Japanese told the observers that we will show you how we organise things, but we know you won't do things our way.

The Japanese way worked wonderfully well in that it decimated the UK markets. I remember in Zambia when I arrived there were well stocked dealers for all of the UK and European makes of vehicle. When I left the only dealers left were Japanese and one French, Peugeot, which sold one model, the 404, for use as taxis.

All good things come to an end and the Japanese experienced a recession that has lasted until this day.

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Sat 3 Aug 2013 16:32
How German cars beat British motors - Rochdale Pioneers

Manufacturing is a dirty word.

No, investment is a dirty word. Our city obsession means that the only number of relevance is quarterly profit. Investment in big expensive kit that pays out over a generation is clearly a stupid idea, as it saps quarterly profits which means less dividend and smaller bonuses - which are of course the only reason to have businesses for city types.

Strategically its been suicidally short sighted. We are happy to let foreign firms decide through the rigours of the market where to invest their money - why own an industry and have to spend money now when instead you could flog it and make a profit now instead?

Final observation. Note how many of our privatised industries are owned by foreign governments. Our nuclear energy requirements are entirely at the whim of the state owned Energy du France, who not only invest in their own country's infrastructure but also quite happy to buy ours at a song when some Pollock sold them for a quick profit.

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Sat 3 Aug 2013 17:04
How German cars beat British motors - jamie745

Maybe it all stems from Thatcher.

It does amuse me how an entire nations failure to do something is pinned on a politician who left office 23 years ago and died earlier this year.

The Datsun 120Y did more to kill British motor manufacturing than anything Thatcher did. The British public accepted patchy reliability as the norm until that car showed them cars can actually work every day. By the time Thatcher took over, we weren't actually building cars because entire factories went on strike demanding 25% pay increases. Even when they got them they'd then find the thinnest reason to strike again - a wet floor in one case I believe.

All of that ended competative British manufacturing before the end of the 70s.

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Sat 3 Aug 2013 23:46
How German cars beat British motors - galileo

I had a friend who bought one of the first Datsun 120Ys. It had a heater and radio when these were extras from BMC, Ford etc. and could be relied on to start first time.

As Jamie says, UK motor manufacturers suffered badly from militant unions, management was not always the best either and quality control was patchy at many factories. Another friend bought a new Humber Sceptre and when he drove it away from the dealers found the rear brakes were on because the handbrake cables were adjusted too short.

Also correct that investment in modern machinery was hit and miss. I saw chassis members for trucks being produced in the early sixties on a pre-war hydraulic press which leaked a gallon of water onto the floor with each stroke. And in the same factory final inspection of back axle casings consisted of resting them on large V blocks and smacking them with a 14lb sledgehammer - no breakage, passed!

German factories at that time had newer facilities (thanks to post war re-build funding) and probably a less strike prone workforce, possibly more professional managers too.

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Sun 4 Aug 2013 12:32
How German cars beat British motors - SteveLee

We now make more cars than ever in the UK, the problem with UK car manufacturing was the unionisation of the workforce. The launch of just about every BMC and BLMC car was met with a strike losing hundreds of thousands of sales (through lost production) meanwhile the halo effect of a new product launch wore off. Not only sales lost but potential new customerrs to the brand. Germans cars were once reliable now they are no better then anything else and worse than most Japanese cars. It's all about marketing - stick a BMW badge on a turd and it'll sell.

These days new cars are rarely bought with private money (unless we are talking about small hatches/2nd cars etc) everyone buys aspirationally, the Mondeo is a fantasic car but people would rather stretch their car allowances an extra £25 a month for a "premium" badge to impress the neighbours rather than buy (lease) an arguably better (and better equipped) Ford. We are a nation of gullible badge-snobs

Edited by SteveLee on 04/08/2013 at 12:32

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Sun 4 Aug 2013 21:28
How German cars beat British motors - Galad

And don't forget Vauxhall - the Viva had to have the worst gearbox in the world at the time (the Viva coined the phrase 'if you can't find it, grind it') and then came the Datsun Sunny: totally reliable with a radio fitted standard and tinted windows to boot, a dream to drive and to self-service (although it was a rust bucket).

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Sun 4 Aug 2013 22:56
How German cars beat British motors - daveyK_UK

No mention of the Rover - Honda partnership.

Surprised, as I thought this was more ciritcal to the death of Rover than the BMW failure ever was.

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Thu 5 Sep 2013 17:11
How German cars beat British motors - Collos25

I remember an article about an British officer who at the end of WW2 who was given the task of getting VW back into producing cars. Pity he didn't turn up at our car makers. Is it not possible for us to get a good car manufacturing company going here again?

Actually it was an American Dutch Prof Duran he was responsible for geting the German and Japanese industry(including VW) working after the WW2 his famous formula was "First time right and just in time" its how all efficient industry works but not in the UK.

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Sun 4 Aug 2013 23:11
How German cars beat British motors - Avant

For me the key paragraph in Dominic Sandbrook's article is:

"From Britain's perspective, the tragedy is that we always had the skills. But we lacked the right management, the right unions, the right priorities, and, quite frankly, the right work ethic. And in the end, we paid a heavy price."

There's nothing wrong with the British workforce. Some of their fathers no doubt worked for British car makers in the 70s and 80s: they too, properly managed and with a decent product, could have made good cars.

I agree with Jamie about the Datsun 120Y, although I'd add the earlier Toyota Corona to the argument. As a killer of the British car industry, the Austin Allegro ranks high: the public wanted a reliable hatchback as a successor to the 1100/1300, and got it in the VW Golf. The rest is history.

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Mon 5 Aug 2013 07:46
How German cars beat British motors - madf

http://www.amazon.co.uk/books/dp/0715811479

Working for Ford by Huw Benyon is an eye opener for anyone who was not alive/interested in cars at the time.

Shows how militants tried to kill Ford- written by one of them..

The car industry was not only affected by its own industrial problems but by those of its suppliers. EG Lucas went on strike for weeks and UK car production virtually ceased. UK car management was poor but the Unions were frankly a hotbed of idiots who had political aims . And achieved them- but not the outcome they hoped for.

See Arthur Scargill who repeatedly claimed the UK Gov't were out to close the coal industry down - and then worked hard to help them do so. (In effect that is what he did although he thought he was trying to save the industry by going on strike)

The UK Print Unions did the same with the newspaper industry and ended up destroying jobs for their own workers. They also did the same in indutrial printing - think metal cans etc - with the result their union jobs were eventually destroyed. See SOGAT and the NGA..

The same mentality exists in parts today - see UNITE.

Edited by madf on 05/08/2013 at 07:48

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Mon 5 Aug 2013 09:13
How German cars beat British motors - alastairq

We now make more cars than ever in the UK,

summed up nicely!

Last night's Top Gear made the point.....there is a huge British motor manufacturing industry today...just not in the 'form' most casual obsevers imagine it should be.

I guess we now live in a global manufacturing world....China, for example, for a decade or so the world's manufacturing base, is now starting to struggle as workers there acquire material aspirations..much like Britain did in the last 1950's?

Japan went before it.

When discussing Britain's ''apparent' decline a a motor manufacturing country, too much emphasis is placed upon a few glaring examples of bad management, union militancy, and poor investment.

UNion militancy arose out of a management intransigence to talk...simples.

It is happening today, especially in government-managed sectors. [I hesitate to say 'public'.....as a very Un-civil servant, I don't 'serve' , or care about, any member of the great 'unwashed' public's opinion... & no, I don't 'feel lucky' to still have a 'job'....the taxpayer is paying me for my skills,which it cannot do without, it seems...tens of millions recently spent yet agin, to discover I, & my colleages, still represent the best value-for-money to the taxpayer!!]]

Nissan & Toyota have shown us how to run things, an intergrated workforce, where everyone, from the top down, is made to feel valued, and contributes..all to the advancement and well-being of the 'company'...

This country now seems to be doing better in the global automotive industry than even the good ol' USofA?

[witness the collapse of the Detroit-based car industry? Ford, GM, all going titsup?]

Most famous European car makers are now inextricably tied up with others...Mercedes and Chrysler, for example? Who saved who?

FIAT, is another?

I get the impression too many of us really want to see a return to the sweatshop manufacturing ethos of a century ago....? Fine, as long as we ourselves don't have to suffer under it, I suspect?

Britain still has an automotive industry.

However, instead of making mediocre products which were the outcome of British ideas and design, our design & developement is now found throughout the global industry instead.

See the bigger picture?

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Mon 5 Aug 2013 09:50
How German cars beat British motors - Collos25

A rose tinted report with so many inaccuracies.

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Mon 5 Aug 2013 11:41
How German cars beat British motors - 659FBE

Absolutely.

The present generation of Civil Servants provide nothing of value to the public, being poorly managed and unionised to the point of negative benefit. Where have we seen this before?

We do not have a British motor industry. We have a UK automotive assembly industry.

There are no significant autonomous vehicle designers and manufacturers in the UK; all management and policy decisions are made abroad and that's where a good measure of the profits end up.

When the UK learns how to manage and motivate a workforce within a large organisation and when unions learn to negotiate constructively for the long term good of their members, we might once again be able to produce things of lasting value.

659.

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Mon 5 Aug 2013 12:02
How German cars beat British motors - Andrew-T

We do not have a British motor industry. We have a UK automotive assembly industry.

To the politicians and others who make the decisions that affect us all, there is not much difference. What matters to them is paid employment for the masses, who would otherwise make trouble. And probably the difference doesn't matter much to those masses either.

To those of us who can look at the situation 'in the round' as it were, the worry is what we sell when the family has no silver left. We made our pile in the 19th and early 20th centuries, basically digging up our minerals and using our know-how to sell them abroad. Nowadays we rely too much on the money-changers, who put rather too much of it into their own pockets. When that mirage fades we really are in trouble.

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