VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn

Honest John Back Room » Legal matters
View Threaded
Mon 8 Jul 2013 23:35
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

Hi.

I was stopped by a police van on A4 after the Hammersmith Flyover last week for doing a u-turn on a signal that had ahead-only and right-only filter arrows. It did not have any 'no u-turn' sign.

They took my licence details and today I received a conditional offer of fixed penalty for £60 and 3 points.

This is my first offence and I've been driving for nearly 5 years now.

I am quite gutted as I've seen loads of signals where such straight/right filter arrows are there and there are "no u-turn" signs. Since there wasn't any sign like that on this one, I thought it was legal to do a u-turn.

Also, I couldn't find anything on the highway code or anywhere else that states that doing such a manouvre is illegal.

My question is should I bother contesting or I don't stand a chance and just give the fine and live with the 3 penalty points?

Thanks,

Paul

Edited by gbs01 on 08/07/2013 at 23:36

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 9 Jul 2013 00:18
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - Bromptonaut

In terms of the offence you're bang to rights. The arrows convey the meaning ahead only or right only. Left turns or U-turns are effectively prohibited.

Unlucky, 'cos if the Council had caught you on camera it'd be fine but no points. Might be worth checking if there are any protocols about police enforcing these offences where, as in London there's overlapping civil enforcememt by the Council but I suspect you're just going to have to pay up and acept the points.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 9 Jul 2013 11:06
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - Cris_on_the_gas

yep afraid your bang to rights on this one as previous post.

Might be worth asking if a Driver Improvement course is available as an option. Cost slightly higher than £60 but you don't get points on licence

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 9 Jul 2013 19:44
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

Thanks for the advice guys.

I find it quite confusing that there are places where they put these filter arrows and also the 'no u-turn allowed' signs whereas in other places there aren't any 'no u-turn allowed' signs.

Spoke to a few of my colleagues and none of them knew that taking u-turn was illegal if there was no 'no u-turn allowed' sign.

How do I check if there are any courses available as the letter didn't state anything like that? It's come from British Transport Police and not the council.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 04:47
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - 1litregolfeater

What's wrong with a U Turn?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 11:38
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

@1litregolfeater - The cops told me it's illegal as the filter arrows said go either straight or right. But then the U-turn was in the right direction itself hence I'm struggling to understand what's wrong with it...

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 12:13
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - TeeCee

Simple. If you are given an arrow, you are only allowed to go in the direction that the arrow points in. So, if the arrow points right, you may only turn right. A U-turn is not and never will be a right turn.

A "No U-turn" sign is only necessary at lights where a simple green light is presented. That allows you to go in any direction possible, including turning 180 degrees, so U-turns have to be specifically disallowed.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 13:23
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - galileo

Simple. If you are given an arrow, you are only allowed to go in the direction that the arrow points in. So, if the arrow points right, you may only turn right. A U-turn is not and never will be a right turn.

A "No U-turn" sign is only necessary at lights where a simple green light is presented. That allows you to go in any direction possible, including turning 180 degrees, so U-turns have to be specifically disallowed.

Look at Google Earth at 53 38 39 N and 1 47 14 W, on Huddersfield ring road. Go to Streetview, looking North, and there is a right turn lane with a right turn only arrow on the traffic light. (Search for postcode HD1 finds the other side of this junction).

Police cars regularly make u turns from this lane to return to the Police Station, others do so to access Civic Centre car park, never heard of anyone being 'done' for this.

Edited by galileo on 10/07/2013 at 13:38

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 13:54
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - galileo

I should add that at some other junctions on the Ring Road there are "No U Turn" signs at the right turn lane lights. So in their absence, presumably permitted in this locality.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 18:40
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

@TeeCee - This is not true. I've given below what is just one example of where there are straight/right filter arrows and there is a no "u-turn allowed" sign above the right filter arrow:

maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.44274,-0.474794&spn=0...9

Edited by gbs01 on 10/07/2013 at 18:42

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 10 Jul 2013 22:01
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - daveyjp
As the photo shows a second set of lights with a blue sign and a no u turn sign chances are the second set green is just like the one on the other set. Right and left turn green are added to a standard set of lights to the right or left of the green light below the amber.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 11 Jul 2013 09:27
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - TeeCee

I never said they didn't exist like that, only that they were not necessary.

Bound to happen somewhere, given the British obsession with plastering as much signage as possible over the roads.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 11 Jul 2013 13:01
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - galileo

I never said they didn't exist like that, only that they were not necessary.

Bound to happen somewhere, given the British obsession with plastering as much signage as possible over the roads.

But you did say U turns were never allowed from right turn lanes. What about my example above where Police and others U turn regularly from a right turn lane? Legal or not?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 11 Jul 2013 14:27
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - Bromptonaut

But you did say U turns were never allowed from right turn lanes. What about my example above where Police and others U turn regularly from a right turn lane? Legal or not?

Unless the traffic order prescribing the restriction has an exception then Police are breaking law.

No help to the OP though as what he did was still illegal.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 11 Jul 2013 15:35
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - bathtub tom

I've a lot of sympathy for the OP, as I can't see they did anything wrong.

I've perused the highway code and it wouldn't appear to me to forbid a U-turn:

page 102 If the way is clear you may go but only in the direction shown by the arrow

The OP turned in the direction of the arrow.

I reckon a decent lawyer could argue a case, particularly as there was an absence of a no U-turn sign and it can be shown that a no U-turn sign is present at similar junctions. May even set a precedent?

How much can the OP afford?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 11 Jul 2013 21:49
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

@Tom / Galileo - Thanks a lot for your understanding.

I can afford to spend a couple of hundred pounds as my driving record has been clean so far and I'd like to keep it that way especially if I didn't do anything illegal.

Any suggestions on a decent lawyer that can help me in this case?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 12 Jul 2013 10:51
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - TeeCee

page 102If the way is clear you may go but only in the direction shown by the arrow

Arrow points right, not 180 degrees back on itself. I don't see anything that then says; "Having started to turn in the direction of the arrow, you may then go in any direction you wish."

The Highway Code wording could possibly be considered slightly ambiguous, but it's what the legislation says that's important. I reckon that, in court, that would be considered to be a de minimis argument (basically pedantry) and chucked out.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 12 Jul 2013 11:02
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - TeeCee

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

2002 No. 3113, PART I, SECTION 5, Significance of light signals prescribed by regulations 33 to 35, Regulation 36

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/36/made

"(g) where more than one green arrow is affixed to light signals in accordance with regulation 34(1)(b), vehicular traffic, notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, may proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by any one of the green arrows for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals;"

My emphasis. Looks clear enough to me. You can do what you like once clear of the junction, but while passing through it you may only travel in the indicated direction.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 12 Jul 2013 16:28
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

I would have agreed to this if there were no other similar junctions with a 'no u-turn' sign against them.

Yesterday, I noticed an 'ahead-only' arrow with a 'no u-turn' along with it (there were no other filter arrows). What do you make of that?

While for you it's the obsession with displaying signage but for me as a driver trying to make sense of that signage and drive by the rules, it is very confusing.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 12 Jul 2013 22:18
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - galileo

Checking the various junctions on the local ring road, where the road layout (central divider and pavements) would make U-turns easily possible, 5 clockwise junctions have "no U-turn" signs, one does not, 6 anticlockwise junctions have "no U-turn", two do not. So potential confusion at least.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 12 Jul 2013 22:46
VW Passat - Fixed penalty given for u-turn - gbs01

A few examples of roads where I drive regularly and which led me to this confusion:

maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.481694,-0.347718&spn=...5

maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.48265,-0.337221&spn=0...6

maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.466267,-0.419905&spn=...6

Reply | Report as offensive | Link