Road casualties 2012 - RT

ONS has released casualty statistics for 2012 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23083117 - overall road deaths are down 8% but cyclist deaths are up 10%.

Surely it's time to segregate cyclists from motorised traffic - for their own safety ?

Edited by Avant on 28/06/2013 at 00:11

Road caualties 2012 - Sofa Spud

As a cyclist as well as a motorist, I'd welcome being segregated from motor vehicles when I'm on my bike.

Road caualties 2012 - Rats

As a cyclist as well as a motorist, I'd welcome being segregated from motor vehicles when I'm on my bike.

Our local council has spent many thousands of pounds, probably running into the hundreds of thousandson cycle paths, but half the cyclists (probably the more militant of them) seem to think the road is the best place to ride, especially where it has been narrowed to make room for the virtually unused cycle path!

What is wrong with them???

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

Our local council has spent many thousands of pounds, probably running into the hundreds of thousandson cycle paths, but half the cyclists (probably the more militant of them) seem to think the road is the best place to ride, especially where it has been narrowed to make room for the virtually unused cycle path!

What is wrong with them???

Wrong with the cyclists or wrong with the lanes?

Narrow, poor surface, poor routing and sometimes downright dangerous integration at junctions for a start. Shared use with pedestrians is another reason why this cyclist might avoid them. My pace is nearer cars than push chairs.

The highway code suggests faster moving cyclists might be better off on the road.

If you'd like to send a streetview link to the schemes/paths you mention I'll critique the particular location.

Road caualties 2012 - unthrottled

That might just reflect the current popularity of cycling-driving miles down and cycling miles up. Overall deaths/million miles for each mode of transport might not have changed much.

Segregation is fine in theory, but in reality there just isn't space for two lanes-unless you are happy to endure even more cumbersome one way systems in town centres.

In Cheshire most of the cycle lanes have been added to roads which are wide and there was little conflict between cycles and cars. It looks good for the council's statistics but completely pointless for everyone but road painting contractors.

Road caualties 2012 - Hamsafar

In the age of 'big data' we need to drill down far deeper than this.
Are we talking about these extreme cyclists with helmet cams racing across London, through red lights and up and down pavements, or old ladies on the way to the village post office with a basket of mushrooms on the front?

There couldn't be more diversity in cycling so they really need to analyse each accident rather than treating them as collectively as chickens in a chicken farm.

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

In the age of 'big data' we need to drill down far deeper than this.
Are we talking about these extreme cyclists with helmet cams racing across London, through red lights and up and down pavements, or old ladies on the way to the village post office with a basket of mushrooms on the front?

There couldn't be more diversity in cycling so they really need to analyse each accident rather than treating them as collectively as chickens in a chicken farm.

Spot on.

I suspect high level conclusions would capture (a) conflict with lorries, particularly construction industry vehicles, in London and other cities and (b) rural A roads.

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

ONS has released casualty statistics for 2012 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23083117 - overall road deaths are down 8% but cyclist deaths are up 10%.

Surely it's time to segregate cyclists from motorised traffic - for their own safety ?

As the BBC article makes clear the number of cyclists, particularly in London, is on the increase. Commuter time use in London has considerably more than doubled in the last 10years and on several routes there are more bicycles than any other group of vehicles. 40% of westbound traffic on Theobalds Road.

It's not really that dangerous compared to other activity. Deaths per mile on a bike are broadly the same as for walking. Less than for walking when drunk.

Segregation is a fine idea in principle but utterly impractical in execution on British streets without eating into space for other vehicles. There's a long east/west stretch in London along Tavistock Place etc from Judd St to Tottenham Court Road. It's really too narrow for the volume it carries and there is conflict with motorised traffic at unlit junctions, notably Gordon St which is taxi access to Euston Station.

There's certainly some need for training, particularly amongst the annual influx of students and new workers. Emphasis needed specificaly on risk around large vehicles. Drivers of tip/skip lorries, the main killer in London, also need to be more aware of cyclists in their proximity. By no means all the deaths are down to cyclists filtering, in some cases truck has overtaken and 'left hooked'.

Road caualties 2012 - Ed V

Surely cycling roads would be hugely cheaper than those built to carry cars, lorries and motorbikes.

We could build thousands of miles of cycle-ways for relative peanuts - at least compared to new road-standard tracks.

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

Surely cycling roads would be hugely cheaper than those built to carry cars, lorries and motorbikes.

We could build thousands of miles of cycle-ways for relative peanuts - at least compared to new road-standard tracks.

Not sure about that. They need a road standard surface - smooth tarmac. Loose grit and such like won't cut the mustard. OK on a tractor tyred MTB, passable with care on a Brompton but a 'mare on narrow section road wheels.

Anything near the kerbside wil inevitably be (ab)used by deliveries, breakdowns etc. If it breaks up under the load of a Transit it's NBG.

The London route mentioned above cost milions and it's far from safe and easy to navigate.

Road caualties 2012 - brum

ONS has released casualty statistics for 2012 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23083117 - overall road deaths are down 8% but cyclist deaths are up 10%.

No proof, but could this be partly due to those stupidly bright DRL's that distract and make pedestrians and cyclists less visible?

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

There's a better news item here with the stats more clearly broken down:

www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/legal--motoring-advice/2.../

HJ

Includes a link to the DfT figures. Some categories still mix dead and seriously injured. Seriously injured is itself far too wide, covering anything requiring hospital admission up to life changing amputations ot brain injury.

Road caualties 2012 - Ben 10
Cycle paths adjacent to A4 Great West Road, not on the carriageway, hardly used. Lycra clad fraternity don't use them but put themselves in conflict with 3 lanes of heavy traffic.

And don't complain about debris and carp on them. That was in the old days when cyclists had no say in road design, not now. What more do you want. There is just the same near the kerbside. Its been put in a great expense, nicely coloured so you know where it is, cleaned regularly and patrolled by traffic wardens as it is a red route.

So you can't have it all your own way. It's there to be used for the intended purpose. Use it or possibly become a statistic.
Road caualties 2012 - Engineer Andy
Cycle paths adjacent to A4 Great West Road, not on the carriageway, hardly used. Lycra clad fraternity don't use them but put themselves in conflict with 3 lanes of heavy traffic. And don't complain about debris and carp on them. That was in the old days when cyclists had no say in road design, not now. What more do you want. There is just the same near the kerbside. Its been put in a great expense, nicely coloured so you know where it is, cleaned regularly and patrolled by traffic wardens as it is a red route. So you can't have it all your own way. It's there to be used for the intended purpose. Use it or possibly become a statistic.

As a cyclist (though not as much as I would like - see the problems next) as well as a motorist, I can sympathise with some who don't use cycle lanes and use the roads.

Quite often cycle lanes are strewn with debris and are not cleaned at all (to be honest, most roads aren't these days due to councils cutting such services), which, like on roads, leads to punctures and the occasional blow-out (I had one whilst cycling along the cycle path next to the A1(M) and bearly avoided doing myself serious harm). I'm sure all us drivers can appreciate this, given the current state of the roads, which in areas where there are no cycle lanes (or patchy coverage) and cyclists often have to suddenly swerve from the kerb to avoid debris, potholes and sunken drain covers.

Many areas, including my home town of Royston, are poorly served by cycle lanes - they often (even when there's room to put them at the side of the road, sharing a wide pavement) are squeezed in to ordinary roads (making the road narrower) and often suddenly stop for long distances for no reason, making it impossible to go from A to B without going on busy (and often dangerous) roads. Every road out of town to neighbouring areas are dangerous, and two are notorious accident blackspots for cars and motorbikes, let alone cycles.

If I wanted to cycle to the next town (in any direction), I would mostly have to take my life in my own hands (many trunk roads with fast-moving lorries and cars) or in one or two cases travel 2-3 times the distance you would in a car to keep on the country lanes, which aren't exactly safe themselves, as people use them as cut throughs to villages.

Many towns and cities are like this - councils spending huge amounts of monies on several 200m cycles lanes (and expensive signage/road painting) to nowhere (they never ask the cyclists what they want or take heed when they do), rather than build up co-ordinated routes so cyclists can come off dangerous roads. My council built a tunnel under the railway line to shave off 10 minutes for kids to walk to school (it also included a cycle path, which is bearly used), but didn't make the overall route any safer, as they didn't have to cross any less roads to get to school. It cost, as far as I could recall, £5m of our money and lottery grants.

Outside of kids using it to walk to school (those that don't get a lift from parents), its mostly used as a "hang-out" for feckless youths (with the litter and graffiti that goes with it) and now has to have a CCTV camera pointing at it at the rate-payers' expense. Councils never learn.

Anyhoo - basically more cyclists generally but with poorly-maintained, fragmented cycle lanes + more and larger, faster vehicles = more cyclists on normal roads -> more accidents.

Road caualties 2012 - galileo

200m cycle lanes that don't join up are yet another bit of slavish obedience to Brussels bureaucrats: "must have x distance or percentage of cycle lanes" so Whitehall passes the laws and councils obey the letter but not the spirit.

No doubt in France they just ignore this like the other EU rules they don't agree with.

Road caualties 2012 - Bromptonaut

200m cycle lanes that don't join up are yet another bit of slavish obedience to Brussels bureaucrats: "must have x distance or percentage of cycle lanes" so Whitehall passes the laws and councils obey the letter but not the spirit.

No doubt in France they just ignore this like the other EU rules they don't agree with.

Any evidence that Brussels sets the marks for cycle lanes?

Thought not.

France has a well developed cycling culture including lanes and a system of presumed liability when car bike conflicts happen.

You can tell too when you ride over there. Drivers are much more patient and allow a decent amount of space.

Road caualties 2012 - focussed

200m cycle lanes that don't join up are yet another bit of slavish obedience to Brussels bureaucrats: "must have x distance or percentage of cycle lanes" so Whitehall passes the laws and councils obey the letter but not the spirit.

No doubt in France they just ignore this like the other EU rules they don't agree with.

Any evidence that Brussels sets the marks for cycle lanes?

Thought not.

France has a well developed cycling culture including lanes and a system of presumed liability when car bike conflicts happen.

You can tell too when you ride over there. Drivers are much more patient and allow a decent amount of space.

The cycling culture in France is deeply embedded. It seems to be more popular than football, every weekend serious cyclists are out on the roads training for their next race, even though it it only a local event. There seems to be an inbuilt respect for cyclists here. Many local communes hold competitive cycle races and a lot of roads are closed for this-nobody complains, it's just part of the culture.

I'm not a cyclist myself - prefer motorcycling, over here cyclists respect other road users and vice versa, they don't consider themselves to be the carrier of the holy environmental torch like the insufferable lycra loonies in the UK .

Road casualties 2012 - Engineer Andy

I suppose (given Le Tour is almost a religious experience in France [despite no Frenchman winning in recent years]) that the Trench's reverie for cyclists and cycling generally means they give more respect for them, unlike Brits - if you recall both and Bradley Wiggins and Victoria Pendleton were knocked off their bikes whilst out on the roads training, so if they can, anyone can.

In my experience, a high percentage of vehicles (maybe not the majority) actively don't give sufficient space and act recklessly/agressively around cyclists, who don't have side impact bars, crumple zones and airbags to protect them. That being said, a good number of cyclists still act recklessly (not signalling, riding the wrong way down one-way streets, going too fast in built-up areas around pedestrians, etc) and selfishly (riding two abreast in heavy traffic, not pulling over so traffic can safely overtake without causing jams, etc) themselves when out and about, which obviously doesn't help the cyclists' cause.