How do you explain it ,
against the general Muslim population .
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How do you explain it ,
The guy with blood on his hands did that. did that. We've all seen the recordings rebroadcast on national TV. Basically UK involvement in foreign wars, particularly Iraq and Afghanistan (including the adjoining 'badlands' in Pakistan). Innocent civilians caught up as collateral in drone attacks.
Causus Beli is failure of west to leverage a solution to the Israel/Palestinian conundrum.
People with that sort of motivation don't fit with a criminal model based on acquisition/gratification neither does theprospect of pain/prison/death deter.
against the general Muslim population .
Fortunately most of the rest of the population have the sense to seperate this sort of thing from the general Muslim population.
The apparent perps were Brits from a Nigerian Christian heritage. For whatever reason they were converts to a barmy branch of Islam.
Barmy branches of other Abrahamic religions with are also available.
Quite curious how converts are grossly over represented in the cohort of Muslims prepared to do the terrorist thing. Shoe Bomber, at least one of the 7/7 cohort for starters.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 24/05/2013 at 21:22
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(Causus Beli is failure of west to leverage a solution to the Israel/Palestinian conundrum. )
Justification for war would be a less pretentious description ,however far more important ,how do you resolve this conflict ,which you seem to suggest is the root cause of the present conflicts ,its been happening for more than two thousand years !
On one side you've Israelis continuing to expand settlements on to illegally occupied Palestinian land .
On the other side Palestinians won't accept the existence of an Israeli state and are determined to see it destroyed .
Surely an impossible situation
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re your 'The guy with blood on his hands did that' - I think, very sadly, he 'did that' too.
Now may not be the moment to say it but, if we are ever looking for THE TRUTH ....
On last night's News the poor butchered Drummer Lee Rigby's Commanding Officer said, after saying what a great guy and loving family man Lee Rigby was, that he was also an "accomplished machine-gunner". WHAAAT!!! - I hit the rewind. That's precisely what he said.
I see. So what, precisely, did an "accomplished machine-gunner", employed by us in our Army and paid by ALL of us as taxpayers and voters, actually do with his ... I mean our ... machine gun in Afghanistan day-by-day? Did he use it there? If so, what precisely did he do with it? And if so, what was the view of the recipients of those - of our - machine-gun bullets? Which sounds to me, very, very sad to say, EXACTLY like what the Woolwich killer was talking about.
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There is a sort of logic, I suppose, in your argument - but it ignores two things.
(a) In Afghanistan, although opinions differ as to the effectiveness of the operation, the battle being fought is a legitimate one against terrorists (al-Qaeda) and those who support them (the Taleban). The killing in Woolwich is a crimlnal act of murder, not altered by any political 'purpose'.
(b) The enemy in Afghanistan are also armed. Lee Rigby in Woolwich was off-duty and unarmed.
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I suppose the woolwich killers will regard themselves as holy warriors ,fighting the infidel and supporting the cause of Muslims oppressed by Christian crusaders.
It would be easier to consider there cause as just , if there weren't constant wars being waged by Muslims on other Muslims .Millions have died in these conflicts .
Afghanistan, Iran ,Iraq .Pakistan,Kuwait .eithiopia Somalia and now Syria ,it never ends .
Why the west gets so involved is hard to justify .
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I suppose the woolwich killers will regard themselves as holy warriors ,fighting the infidel and supporting the cause of Muslims oppressed by Christian crusaders. It would be easier to consider there cause as just , if there weren't constant wars being waged by Muslims on other Muslims .Millions have died in these conflicts . Afghanistan, Iran ,Iraq .Pakistan,Kuwait .eithiopia Somalia and now Syria ,it never ends . Why the west gets so involved is hard to justify .
While the 'crusader' analogy is an easy one the issue at hand is about western not Christian oppression.
Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, has history of schisms and sects. The fact the that intra religious battles are being fought has no bearing at all on the rights/wrongs of western occupation and accidental/collateral damage to innocent citizens on Iraq/Afhan/Pakistan.
In several of the countries you list the differing islamic sects are part of a wider ethno-religious mix including, in Syria, Lebanon and Ethiopia Christian and/or Jewish minorities. In Syria and the Gulf sect is a determinig factor in ruler/ruled and something of a proxy for 'class war'.
Why the west gets involved is indeed hard to justify but security of oil supply is a big factor.
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(While the 'crusader' analogy is an easy one the issue at hand is about western not Christian oppression. )
Pointless and pedantic ,the vast majority will still equate western to christian .Mulims certainly do .
(Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, has history of schisms and sects. The fact the that intra religious battles are being fought has no bearing at all on the rights/wrongs of western occupation and accidental/collateral damage to innocent citizens on Iraq/Afhan/Pakistan.)
An apologist for the lunacy of large parts of the Muslim world ! The point I made was how can Muslims attempt take the moral high ground by killing British troops in the uk because they are oppressed .While at the same time killing millions of thier fellow Muslims .
( In several of the countries you list the differing islamic sects are part of a wider ethno-religious mix including, in Syria, Lebanon and Ethiopia Christian and/or Jewish minorities. In Syria and the Gulf sect is a determinig factor in ruler/ruled and something of a proxy for 'class war'. )
Again largely a pointless comment ,the number of and the involvement of the Christian, Jewish ,orthodox cultures in the countries mentioned is minimal at best.
(Why the west gets involved is indeed hard to justify but security of oil supply is a big factor. )
No oil in Afghanistan ,the countries largest exports are opium ,and terrorism .
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When I saw the story break my main thought was that the Government knows far more than they're telling the BBC.
They do not call a Cobra meeting for a stabbing in London. The Prime Minister doesn't take phonecalls abroad about a stabbing in London.
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(When I saw the story break my main thought was that the Government knows far more than they're telling the BBC.
They do not call a Cobra meeting for a stabbing in London. The Prime Minister doesn't take phonecalls abroad about a stabbing in London.)
American style conspiracy theories ?
It seems simple to me ,it's not the horrendous killing ,it's the possible backlash and retaliation that we could see that should concern the government .
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Not especially a conspiracy, just Government not telling the public things it feels the public shouldn't know - or shouldn't know yet anyway.
After the third enquiry we'll know everything.
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No conspiracy theory, in my opinion.
What we had was an attack on a serviceman close to a military facility. This could have been the beginning of a campaign against military targets in the UK and europe. Military establishments are not all protected equally, some are considerably more vulnerable than others.
High level consultation would be needed to determine whether there was felt to be an imminent danger and what response should be taken, this must be at ministerial level, hence the PM and COBRA being involved.
There were knee jerk reactions from senior ranks immediately with servicemen being told not to wear uniform in public and base security being increased. When it was seen that this was probably an isolated incident, the previous state and rules were reintroduced.
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It seems simple to me ,it's not the horrendous killing ,it's the possible backlash and retaliation that we could see that should concern the government .
It won't happen Tony. Beyond the nutters of the EDL who turned out on the night of the killing loking like the IRA the British population is sensible enough to see this as the work of a pair of isolated nutters.
Govt though may use at as excuse to re-inroduce email/web logging and to justify restrictions on free speech (anjem Choudary etc).
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They do not call a Cobra meeting for a stabbing in London. The Prime Minister doesn't take phonecalls abroad about a stabbing in London.
In a sense that's true. If two unbalanced men hack a bloke to death on London street they're nutters. If they do it while shouting slogans from the bible then they're religious nutters. If they do it in the name of Islam they're suddenly terrorists.
But as stated below until the govt have satisfied themselves it is just two nutters and not part of a sequenced campaign of killings some level of Cabinet Office briefing and messaging the PM makes sense.
More interesting is the stuff now emerging about intelligence involvement with one of the perps including allegation that they tried to 'turn' him.
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An apologist for the lunacy of large parts of the Muslim world ! The point I made was how can Muslims attempt take the moral high ground by killing British troops in the uk because they are oppressed .While at the same time killing millions of thier fellow Muslims .
I wear the badge of apologist (or explainer) with pride!
You seem to view 'Muslims' as though they're a homogeneous group like a political party. They're not. Islam is observed from Nigeria through sub Saharan Africa, the middle east and large segments of Asia. It even pops into Europe in Albania and former Yugoslavia.
They're human. They have wars over who is ruled and ruler. Not surprising when in a number of countries (Iraq under Saddam for one, Syria and Bahrain for two others) the rulers are part of a minority. None if that has the slightest bearing on the right, nay obligation, to speak out on behalf of the innocents and collaterals where the west is fighting proxy wars.
) Again largely a pointless comment ,the number of and the involvement of the Christian, Jewish ,orthodox cultures in the countries mentioned is minimal at best. (Why the west gets involved is indeed hard to justify but security of oil supply is a big factor. ) No oil in Afghanistan ,the countries largest exports are opium ,and terrorism .
Only pointless in sense that it exposes the fallacy of the 'Muslim mass' you seek to build.
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(You seem to view 'Muslims' as though they're a homogeneous group like a political party. They're not. Islam is observed from Nigeria through sub Saharan Africa, the middle east and large segments of Asia. It even pops into Europe in Albania and former Yugoslavia. )
The existence of Muslim fundamentalists and there continued ability to flourish can only be with the tacit approval of the larger Muslim population .If they are not encouraged directly ,then at least they are tolerated .How else can they continue to flourish .They are allowed to create sub divisions within the larger religious community .
(They're human. They have wars over who is ruled and ruler. Not surprising when in a number of countries (Iraq under Saddam for one, Syria and Bahrain for two others) the rulers are part of a minority. None if that has the slightest bearing on the right, nay obligation, to speak out on behalf of the innocents and collaterals where the west is fighting proxy wars. )
(They're human.They have wars etc, where the west is fighting proxy wars .)
What a poor justification for the nightmare thats engulfed the islamic world .
The Muslim world needs no help from the west to slaughter fellow Muslims . Remember how many died in the Iran Iraq war .How long before Syria deteriorates into the same nightmare now that Hezbollah are involved .Both conflicts have very little to do with the west and everything to do with the schisms within Islam .
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(While the 'crusader' analogy is an easy one the issue at hand is about western not Christian oppression. ) Pointless and pedantic ,the vast majority will still equate western to christian .Mulims certainly do . (Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, has history of schisms and sects. The fact the that intra religious battles are being fought has no bearing at all on the rights/wrongs of western occupation and accidental/collateral damage to innocent citizens on Iraq/Afhan/Pakistan.) An apologist for the lunacy of large parts of the Muslim world ! The point I made was how can Muslims attempt take the moral high ground by killing British troops in the uk because they are oppressed .While at the same time killing millions of thier fellow Muslims . ( In several of the countries you list the differing islamic sects are part of a wider ethno-religious mix including, in Syria, Lebanon and Ethiopia Christian and/or Jewish minorities. In Syria and the Gulf sect is a determinig factor in ruler/ruled and something of a proxy for 'class war'. ) Again largely a pointless comment ,the number of and the involvement of the Christian, Jewish ,orthodox cultures in the countries mentioned is minimal at best. (Why the west gets involved is indeed hard to justify but security of oil supply is a big factor. ) No oil in Afghanistan ,the countries largest exports are opium ,and terrorism .
Murder of any kind is condemned in any major religion. Islam in no different.
I am Muslim, I do not equate western to Christian. Most of my 'western' friends and colleagues are athiest or agnostic.
There will always be extremists in every religion/sect. The difference is that it's not reported as a religious crime. Pick up any paper - Lets say a british man killed someone, it would simply read 'murder'. Had this man been a Muslim you would certainly see the word Muslim in there somewhere as it serves the agenda of the newspaper. Do I view every Irish or Catholic as a terorist due to the IRA? Thats the problem when most media is owner by one chap who will push his own agenda. A proper newspaper
Whether you like it or not, when the Taliban were in charge in Afghanistan the opium fields were destroyed and those responsible for farming/dealing were dealt with. Now that the US and to a lesser extent, the UK have got involved, production is at an all time high. This would look like history repeating itself to those familar with the CIA and NSA operation in Iran. Drug money is off the books and it's not like the US have no debts. Afghanistan is also very well known to have a vast amount of mineral wealth and natural gas reserves. This was found by a group of pentagon officials and geologists. This was estimated to be at close to one trillion dollars
Afghanistanis for a very long time were seen as heroic 'freedom fighters' (Ronald Reagans' own words) when they were helping the west deal with communism, now they have suddenly become the enemy. The beautiful media at work once again to lead those who follow blindly.
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(Top post Balle Balle)
Sychophantic
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"(Top post Balle Balle)
Sychophantic" (sic)
You do your position no good by using insults against those who disagree with you.
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(You do your position no good by using insults against those who disagree with you.)
Can it be considered an insult if its correct ? I've no problem with anyone that disagrees with me ,all I hope for is a reasoned alternative viewpoint that's not clouded by meaningless statistics , or an approach that's so blinkered that it sees nothing , except that it agrees with .
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If I said, "Top post, Tony", would that be sycophantic? To follow your reasoning, it would.
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(If I said, "Top post, Tony", would that be sycophantic? To follow your reasoning, it would.)
Of course it would ,no problem with that ,I would always hope for a more worthwhile comment than a fawning pat on the back .
As an example read my comments on your post timed at 8.44
Edited by tony g on 30/05/2013 at 12:35
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I think you're unaware of some of the meanings and nuances of words in English.
The comment "top post" just means "I think that what you've put is really good". In default of any contextual hint, it merely expresses strong approval. It is not sycophantic.
A sycophant is someone who insincerely flatters someone else, to get some advantage for themselves - currying favour, or something more substantial.
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FP
(Wikipedia but in modern English, the meaning of the word has shifted to mean an insincere flatterer.)
The rest , currying favour etc is your interpretation.
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FP (Wikipedia but in modern English, the meaning of the word has shifted to mean an insincere flatterer.) The rest , currying favour etc is your interpretation.
Why are you sticking at this?
I'm increasingly drawn to the answer, however distasteful, that there's some dog whistle stuff about the loyalties of British white liberals.
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(Why are you sticking at this? )
Because I enjoy expressing my concerns and opinions .but more important I enjoy the stimulation of alternative opinions ,but only when thier reasoned and supported .
(I'm increasingly drawn to the answer, however distasteful, that there's some dog whistle stuff about the loyalties of British white liberals.)
Can you explain clearly what you mean by the above ,it seems a little flowery to me .
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my mention of 'sticking at this' referred to your contiuing with the suggestion of sycophancy in my response to balle balle.
I think you knw quite well what I mean about loyalty. In crude terms you're accusing me on being a traitor to my race - other, more offensive terms are available.
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(I think you know quite well what I mean about loyalty. In crude terms you're accusing me on being a traitor to my race - other, more offensive terms are available. )
Absolutely not ! I've never thought that or written that ,I'm disappointed that you think that was a suggestion .
If I have a subtext as part of our interchange ,I would say that I often feel that posters and commentators on other media as well as this site ,are so desperate not to be considered racist that they simply won't acknowledge or comment negatively on some of the behaviour of our non indigenous population .
It must be the British sense of fair play ?
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(I think you know quite well what I mean about loyalty. In crude terms you're accusing me on being a traitor to my race - other, more offensive terms are available. )
Absolutely not ! I've never thought that or written that ,I'm disappointed that you think that was a suggestion .
If I have a subtext as part of our interchange ,I would say that I often feel that posters and commentators on other media as well as this site ,are so desperate not to be considered racist that they simply won't acknowledge or comment negatively on some of the behaviour of our non indigenous population .
It must be the British sense of fair play ?
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"...you're accusing me on being a traitor to my race..."
What on earth is this about, Bromp? What is this concept?
Are we supposed to be loyal to some supposed racial/ethnic group, however we define it? Like sort of "white/caucasian brothers"? Like a "north-western European" society? Or the "English" (however you define that - and I have no idea how you do, apart from "someone born in England").
I have to say I find the notion totally absurd and not one I can identify with in the slightest. And it has some nasty overtones.
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"...you're accusing me on being a traitor to my race..."
What on earth is this about, Bromp? What is this concept?
Are we supposed to be loyal to some supposed racial/ethnic group, however we define it? Like sort of "white/caucasian brothers"? Like a "north-western European" society? Or the "English" (however you define that - and I have no idea how you do, apart from "someone born in England").
I have to say I find the notion totally absurd and not one I can identify with in the slightest. And it has some nasty overtones.
That was my point. I took tony g's reference to sycophancy, insincere flattery etc as meaning I was 'sucking up' to a Balleballe and an inference that I was what the EDL would have as a ******* lover.
He says that was not his intention and I of course accept his assurance.
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"FP
(Wikipedia but in modern English, the meaning of the word has shifted to mean an insincere flatterer.)
The rest , currying favour etc is your interpretation."
You astonish me. But don't worry about my reaction - just get the dictionary down and look it up. You are being obtuse.
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Can it be considered an insult if its correct ? I've no problem with anyone that disagrees with me ,all I hope for is a reasoned alternative viewpoint that's not clouded by meaningless statistics , or an approach that's so blinkered that it sees nothing , except that it agrees with .
In what sense could it be correct.?
Unlike some life/politics debating fora there's no identifiable 'popular' people or cliques here with which I could be looking to ingratiate myself.
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(Murder of any kind is condemned in any major religion. Islam in no different.)
Didn't Islamists condemn Salman Rushdie to death by declaring a fatwah that was supported by millions .
(I am Muslim, I do not equate western to Christian. Most of my 'western' friends and colleagues are athiest or agnostic.)
Christianity like Islam is a culture ,a way of life ,a set of values ,to define either as simply a religion is to narrow a viewpoint .
(There will always be extremists in every religion/sect. The difference is that it's not reported as a religious crime. Pick up any paper - Lets say a british man killed someone, it would simply read 'murder'. Had this man been a Muslim you would certainly see the word Muslim in there somewhere as it serves the agenda of the newspaper.)
Nonsense ,the same newspapers describe murderers as Afro carribean or Asian or white as appropriate .To describe the attitude of newspapers as anti Muslim or that they have an hidden agenda amounts to no more than an attempt to deflect the truth of any individuals or groups criminality . We're fortunate that we have a free media in the uk ,something that's not enjoyed in the majority of the Muslim world .
(Do I view every Irish or Catholic as a terorist due to the IRA? Thats the problem when most media is owner by one chap who will push his own agenda. A proper newspaper)
Again nonsense , I come from an Irish catholic background ,the general press never vilified the Irish population for the sins of very few during the ira,s campaign.
In this point lies the crux of the discussion and one particular point you ignore . .Why are Muslims so desperate to kill fellow Muslims.Will you attempt to blame the western press for the Iran/Iraq war ,the conflict in Syria ,the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq ,is it all about western interests or is it really about ideology and which branch of Islam is the correct one?
(Whether you like it or not, when the Taliban were in charge in Afghanistan the opium fields were destroyed and those responsible for farming/dealing were dealt with)
That's right these paragons of virtue you hold up as a positive example ,also destroyed the iconic ancient statues of Buddha ,they halted the education of women , remember the young girl that was shot in the head for espousing education for women.They resorted to stoning adulterers to death in public .They turned Afghanistan into a medieval state .
(. Now that the US and to a lesser extent, the UK have got involved, production is at an all time high. This would look like history repeating itself to those familar with the CIA and NSA operation in Iran. Drug money is off the books and it's not like the US have no debts.)
Major agencies have been trying for years to encourage subsistence farmers to grow food crops in Afghanistan .The Taliban prevent that from happening ,because that's the source of thier income that provides the money to fuel there ideological terrorism .Remember that the farmers receive very little for growing opium ,they are not the major beneficiaries ,they would and do benefit from growing food.
Afghanistan is also very well known to have a vast amount of mineral wealth and natural gas reserves. This was found by a group of pentagon officials and geologists. This was estimated to be at close to one trillion dollars
Afghanistanis for a very long time were seen as heroic 'freedom fighters' (Ronald Reagans' own words) when they were helping the west deal with communism, now they have suddenly become the enemy. The beautiful media at work once again to lead those who follow blindly.
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- "Didn't Islamists condemn Salman Rushdie to death by declaring a fatwah that was supported by millions ."
"Islamists" are not the same as "Islam", though I do realise you are keen to show they are. The number of Muslims who supported the fatwah against Rushdie is totally unknown.
- "Christianity like Islam is a culture ,a way of life ,a set of values ,to define either as simply a religion is to narrow a viewpoint ."
I agree. Christianity, to coin a phrase, is a broad church, whose members span a huge range of beliefs and customs, as is Islam. You may say that even I am part of a Christian culture, though I have no religious faith at all. Likewise Plymouth Brethren, whose beliefs are miles away from, say, Catholics. However, I suspect that is not the point you want to make.
- "Nonsense ,the same newspapers describe murderers as Afro carribean or Asian or white as appropriate .To describe the attitude of newspapers as anti Muslim or that they have an hidden agenda amounts to no more than an attempt to deflect the truth of any individuals or groups criminality . We're fortunate that we have a free media in the uk ,something that's not enjoyed in the majority of the Muslim world ."
Again, broadly I agree. In fact, there has been, historically, a reluctance in the media (perhaps in society generally) to acknowledge that crimes such as the recent sex-grooming cases have a cultural element in them that has its roots in Islam - or a version of it.
- "(Whether you like it or not, when the Taliban were in charge in Afghanistan the opium fields were destroyed and those responsible for farming/dealing were dealt with)
That's right these paragons of virtue you hold up as a positive example ,also destroyed the iconic ancient statues of Buddha ,they halted the education of women , remember the young girl that was shot in the head for espousing education for women.They resorted to stoning adulterers to death in public .They turned Afghanistan into a medieval state ."
You ruin your case by exaggeration - no-one has said the Taleban are "paragons of virtue", but the fact remains that in a tribal society like Afghanistan, where there is no rule of law in the Western sense, the tight control exerted by the Taleban actually works in many ways - more is the pity. In particular, their treatment of women is appalling. Yes, it is back to the Dark Ages, but it illustrates why the idea that the West can somehow establish its brand of democracy in Afghanistan is doomed.
- "Afghanistanis for a very long time were seen as heroic 'freedom fighters' (Ronald Reagans' own words) when they were helping the west deal with communism, now they have suddenly become the enemy. The beautiful media at work once again to lead those who follow blindly."
The media have little to do with this. Western foreign policy has for years (perhaps for ever) been a mixture of realpolitik and opportunism. America armed Saddam when it suited them. We should be ashamed of it, but nothing will change.
Edited by FP on 30/05/2013 at 09:49
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Well, fp,a better reasoned post than some we've seen here .Even though you disagree with some of what I post.
Just two points I would take issue with.
The number of Muslims who supported the Salman Rushdie fatwa .Your description that the number of Muslims who supported the fatwa is unknown while technically correct , disguises the enormity of the proclamation .
Do you remember the scenes in Tehran when the mullahs called for the death of Rushdie , or the book burning in uk cities that were reminiscent of nazi germany in the thirties ?
My comment paragons of virtue ,was sarcasm ,partly instigated by the blinkered viewpoints expressed by an earlier post, that tried to suggest that Taliban rule had in some way benefited Afghanistan .
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- "The number of Muslims who supported the Salman Rushdie fatwa .Your description that the number of Muslims who supported the fatwa is unknown while technically correct , disguises the enormity of the proclamation ."
The number of the supporters of the fatwa has nothing to do with the "enormity" of the proclamation. "Enormity" means the egregious, monstrously immoral nature of an action. And yes, the fatwah was all that.
- "Do you remember the scenes in Tehran when the mullahs called for the death of Rushdie , or the book burning in uk cities that were reminiscent of nazi germany in the thirties ?"
Tehran, with its fundamentalist mullahs, is hardly typical of Islam. Yes, there were book-burnings; how many supported that?
Edited by FP on 30/05/2013 at 13:51
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"Didn't Islamists condemn Salman Rushdie to death by declaring a fatwah that was supported by millions "
What exactly is an islamist? The only time ive seen that before is on one of those 'easy' newspapers like the sun/dailymail.
"Christianity like Islam is a culture ,a way of life ,a set of values ,to define either as simply a religion is to narrow a viewpoint ."
I agree, it is a way of life. I would disagree about it being culture though
"Again nonsense , I come from an Irish catholic background ,the general press never vilified the Irish population for the sins of very few during the ira,s campaign"
That supports my original post then doesnt it? They were never branded as extremists of the Christian faith by the media or 'Christianityists'
"Why are Muslims so desperate to kill fellow Muslims.Will you attempt to blame the western press for the Iran/Iraq war ,the conflict in Syria ,the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq ,is it all about western interests or is it really about ideology and which branch of Islam is the correct one? "
There are rifts between the two major groups; 'Shias' and 'Sunnis'. Think of it as CathoIic vs Protestant. wish I could answer that question for you, but I cannot. I can only speak for my actions as it is only those I am accountable for. You cannot however, tell me that Saddam Hussein was not supported by the US.
"That's right these paragons of virtue you hold up as a positive example ,also destroyed the iconic ancient statues of Buddha ,they halted the education of women , remember the young girl that was shot in the head for espousing education for women.They resorted to stoning adulterers to death in public .They turned Afghanistan into a medieval state . "
Although some parts of the Taliban have acted rather stupidly and done some unforgiveable things, A small number of people within a group does not define the group. I know for a fact that some factions of the Taliban actually give women/girls money for not going to work as they prefer their women to stay at home.
Some may disagree, but it is their way of life - just as our way of life here, they would disagree with. The stoning you are referring to is derived from Sharia law, which is a law based on the teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah (prophetic teachings).
In that part of the world, and indeed within Islam - adulteration is a major sin, 4 witnesses who are deemed reliable and trustworthy must have witnessed the transgression take place before Sharia law is applicable. If they want to do that in their country - what right does anyone have to dictate to them another way of life by force?
if 'the west' still held strong Christian values and morals, then perhaps Sharia law would not seem as bad.
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"Didn't Islamists condemn Salman Rushdie to death by declaring a fatwah that was supported by millions "
What exactly is an islamist? The only time ive seen that before is on one of those 'easy' newspapers like the sun/dailymail.
TAKE time to google Islamist its clearly defined by several dictionaries and the independent newspaper,as a follower of fundamental Islam .
"Christianity like Islam is a culture ,a way of life ,a set of values ,to define either as simply a religion is to narrow a viewpoint ."
I agree, it is a way of life. I would disagree about it being culture though
EITHER or both ,if you disagree justify your viewpoint ,its not enough just to disagree .
"Again nonsense , I come from an Irish catholic background ,the general press never vilified the Irish population for the sins of very few during the ira,s campaign"
That supports my original post then doesnt it? They were never branded as extremists of the Christian faith by the media or 'Christianityists'
"Why are Muslims so desperate to kill fellow Muslims.Will you attempt to blame the western press for the Iran/Iraq war ,the conflict in Syria ,the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq ,is it all about western interests or is it really about ideology and which branch of Islam is the correct one? "
There are rifts between the two major groups; 'Shias' and 'Sunnis'. Think of it as CathoIic vs Protestant. wish I could answer that question for you, but I cannot. I can only speak for my actions as it is only those I am accountable for. You cannot however, tell me that Saddam Hussein was not supported by the US.
VAGUE in the extreme ,you cannot begin to compare catholic ,Protestant rifts to the schisms in Islam ,why don't you acknowledge the millions that have died and will continue to die because of Islam .What do your actions have to do with this point and saddam Hussein ?
"That's right these paragons of virtue you hold up as a positive example ,also destroyed the iconic ancient statues of Buddha ,they halted the education of women , remember the young girl that was shot in the head for espousing education for women.They resorted to stoning adulterers to death in public .They turned Afghanistan into a medieval state . "
Although some parts of the Taliban have acted rather stupidly and done some unforgiveable things, A small number of people within a group does not define the group. I know for a fact that some factions of the Taliban actually give women/girls money for not going to work as they prefer their women to stay at home.
ARE you serious ? To say that some parts of the Taliban have acted rather stupidly ,is like saying Adolf Hitler was rather naughty .
Some may disagree, but it is their way of life - just as our way of life here, they would disagree with. The stoning you are referring to is derived from Sharia law, which is a law based on the teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah (prophetic teachings).
TO much of the Quran is misinterpreted by men who seek to corrupt its benign and worthwhile message to thier own viewpoint .This is a prime example .
In that part of the world, and indeed within Islam - adulteration is a major sin, 4 witnesses who are deemed reliable and trustworthy must have witnessed the transgression take place before Sharia law is applicable. If they want to do that in their country -
what right does anyone have to dictate to them another way of life by force?
ITS often reported that fundamentalist Muslims look to introduce sharia law into the uk isn't that the same .
if 'the west' still held strong Christian values and morals, then perhaps Sharia law would not seem as bad.
SHARIA law will always be wrong for the uk and for any country that has an educated population that questions it's laws .
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Tony,
It's very difficult to follow your quotes of/responses to Balleballe. Could you use the 'Blockquote' marks available with other formatting at foot of the textbox when responding?
VAGUE in the extreme ,you cannot begin to compare catholic ,Protestant rifts to the schisms in Islam ,why don't you acknowledge the millions that have died and will continue to die because of Islam .What do your actions have to do with this point and saddam Hussein ?
Why can you not compare Catholic and Protestant with Sunni/Shia? Albeit they've mostly learned to co-exist in recent years that schism has killed plenty as well. In NI religion was just one marker in a much wider wider cultural/political divide and same is true in parts of Islamic world. Catholic/Orthodox splits were part of the background to the blood stained break up of former Yugoslavia too.
ITS often reported that fundamentalist Muslims look to introduce sharia law into the uk isn't that the same . if 'the west' still held strong Christian values and morals, then perhaps Sharia law would not seem as bad. SHARIA law will always be wrong for the uk and for any country that has an educated population that questions it's laws .
Nobody except the nutters have suggested the application of Sharia law in mainstream UK society.
The serious debate about Sharia law in UK has been about its use within the Muslim community in same way as Jewish adherents can use their religious courts. Under appropriate circumstances decisions of Sharia courts would then be recognised and enforceable for example in commercial disputes between Muslim businesses. We're talking about how disputes are mediated, not about punishments like removal of limbs, stoning or whipping
There's absolutely no difference between that and the use of Appropriate/Proportionate Dispute Resolution mechanisms such as mediation, conciliation or arbitration in the secular business world. It wouldn't affect non muslims as they wouldn't be party to such agreements.
It's also been suggested for Family cases but I'd be less sanguine about that for fear of cultural pressure removing such cases from the secular courts (though it seem to work in the Jewish example).
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It's very difficult to follow your quotes of/responses to Balleballe. Could you use the 'Blockquote' marks available with other formatting at foot of the textbox when responding?
Hi sorry ,tried to use that format several times ,but I don't seem to be able use it on my I pad ,any ideas .
Compare catholic Protestant conflict
,its the sheer scale of the conflict that causes me to comment ,the huge number of deaths caused by inter Islam conflict has not been acknowledged by any other post. As in your own post ,you mention Ireland and Yugoslavia .There not on the same scale .You also don't mention the involvement of a Muslim population in Yugoslavia , why not ?
Sharia law ,
The nutters as you describe them are often religious teachers ,imams who advocate the introduction of sharia law .
Because the Muslim population is very strongly influenced by the imams and there sense of responsibility to there own community .They are too readily directed and manipulated .
The prospect of any law being enforced in the uk other than uk statute ,even between consenting individuals in commercial disputes ,would simply be the thin edge of the wedge .
The next thing that would be required ,would be for the exclusion of Muslims from uk divorce laws ,that would do a huge disservice to Muslim women ,check the comments made by balle balle regarding Muslim women in Afghanistan .
Edited by tony g on 31/05/2013 at 16:41
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I would think that when firing on an enemy, he would be wearing uniform and obeying the rules of engagement that exist. His mandate to do that is our electing of the government, like them or not "we" put them there.
I doubt he would walk up to any one (even a suspected/known combatant) and just unleash his version of justice.
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re your 'The guy with blood on his hands did that' - I think, very sadly, he 'did that' too.
Now may not be the moment to say it but, if we are ever looking for THE TRUTH ....
On last night's News the poor butchered Drummer Lee Rigby's Commanding Officer said, after saying what a great guy and loving family man Lee Rigby was, that he was also an "accomplished machine-gunner". WHAAAT!!! - I hit the rewind. That's precisely what he said.
I see. So what, precisely, did an "accomplished machine-gunner", employed by us in our Army and paid by ALL of us as taxpayers and voters, actually do with his ... I mean our ... machine gun in Afghanistan day-by-day? Did he use it there? If so, what precisely did he do with it? And if so, what was the view of the recipients of those - of our - machine-gun bullets? Which sounds to me, very, very sad to say, EXACTLY like what the Woolwich killer was talking about.
If it wasn't for accomplished machine gunners like him in former generations, you would be speaking German, rather than just buying their card
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