Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - John Boy

Surprise, surprise!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21759258

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - Collos25

I do think anybody takes the official figures seriously discussed many times at length on this forum.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - TeeCee

Really?

In a similar vein, apparently they've just elected a new Pope and he's a Catholic! Who could have seen that coming?

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - RT

It's why this website has a "Real Mpg" section - very useful it is too.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

Thne continued 'improvements' always lacked plausibility because they had no theoretical basis. But some of the tricks are blatent e.g. disconnecting the alternator, taping up body panel gaps.

I wonder of the 'special lubricant' is just ordinary oil laced with gasoline. The gasoline will thin the oil at the start of the test (less friction), then gradually evaporate and go through the PCV and be burned reducing the duty cycle of the injectors, and hence the observed economy...

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - skidpan

We already know that ALL manufacturers present cars that are it top fettle to ensure that they produce the best possible result but the BBC report just shows how little they know.

Take the comment "Cracks between body panels and windows are taped up to reduce air resistance. Sometimes they even remove the wing mirrors", how would that help. The test is done on a rolling road in a lab, there is no wind resistance thus taping up any gaps and removing wing mirrors would have no effect.

And when was the last time cars were fitted with "wing mirrors". The last car I had fitted with "wing mirrors" was a 1972 Vauxhall Viva, after that all my cars have had "door mirrors".

Yes we need a more realistic test but if you simply use the quoted figures to compare one car against another and do not take them as gospel then they are better than nothing.

Also realise that the CO2 figures are used to derive your RFL, if the mpg figures were more realistic the CO2 figures quoted would be higher and we would all be paying considerably more RFL, do you want that.

Edited by skidpan on 14/03/2013 at 13:14

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

The test is done on a rolling road in a lab, there is no wind resistance thus taping up any gaps and removing wing mirrors would have no effect.

A silly internet myth. The resistence of the rollers is set to include aerodynamic drag. It does not include 'wind', which could increase the aerodynamic drag and rolling resistence substantially.

And when was the last time cars were fitted with "wing mirrors".

Pedantry. When did you last put gloves in the glove compartment? Or a gas mantle on the mantle piece? etc etc.


if the mpg figures were more realistic the CO2 figures quoted would be higher and we would all be paying considerably more RFL, do you want that.

Yup! My RFL is based on engine size. I think that cars that pay less should emt less. If they dont, they should pay more.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - Ethan Edwards

I disagree. The 4 litre SUV (VED six squillion a year) that does 50 miles a year should pay less then the Hybrid (Free VED) doing 50,000 miles a year. VED is an utterly stupid tax..

And I speak as the owner of a SUV and a free VED Hybrid.

You should be content Mr Osborne with either stupidly taxing the veehickle or intelligently taxing the fuel..not both.

Government is like a boozer with an addiction..a tax a holic if you like.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

Government is like a boozer with an addiction..a tax a holic if you like.

But with a deficit of ~150 billion/year, the addiction to taxation isn't going anywhere soon. Then when the deficit has gone, there's just the issue of the debt to deal with. I've depressed myself just thinking about it.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - Andrew-T

I disagree. VED is an utterly stupid tax..

I disagree - VED is a tax which you personally find illogical. It is not stupid insofar as it is relatively simple to organise and to collect. No doubt it is more rational to tax the amount of fuel consumed, which should relate to each vehicle's road use, and might encourage drivers to use less. But drivers who travel to other countries will exercise any cheaper option, which is less easily done with VED. And why should I pay road tax on the petrol I use in my mower? :-)

Since the ancient justification for VED is to pay for the maintenance of the road system, maybe we should revert to charging local councils for that?

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - brum

The test is done on a rolling road in a lab, there is no wind resistance thus taping up any gaps and removing wing mirrors would have no effect.

A silly internet myth. The resistence of the rollers is set to include aerodynamic drag. It does not include 'wind', which could increase the aerodynamic drag and rolling resistence substantially.


Both wrong I think, if I recall correctly.....

Surprisingly, both rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag data is provided by the manufacturer to the test authority (which in some cases may be the car manufacturer itself). Rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag is supposedly tested by the manufacturer by a "standard procedure" where a "random" car is driven at a "standard speed" along a test track (the manufacturers usually) , then allowed to coast to a halt. The distance taken to come to a halt is used to calculate a combined drag/rr coefficient. I think they have to do the test in both directions to cancel out the effect of wind and gradient, and there are certain limits of wind/gradient stipulated..

Also the manufacturer also provides data as to how more economical the car becomes as it runs in. Basically the manufacturer makes a statement something like after 30,000km the car will, on average, use xx% less fuel because the engine/running gear becomes more efficient after running in and loosening up. The % provided is added to the tested result.

Again good faith and good methodology by the manufacturer is assumed.

Dont forget, heavy financial penalties are imposed by the EU on car manufacturers who dont acheive their EU directive emission targets - a very strong incentive to falsify data.

Edited by brum on 14/03/2013 at 20:58

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

Rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag is supposedly tested by the manufacturer by a "standard procedure" where a "random" car is driven at a "standard speed" along a test track (the manufacturers usually) , then allowed to coast to a halt

So aero drag is included in the equation.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - brum

nptel.iitm.ac.in/courses/112104033/pdf_lecture/lec...f

Driving Cycles for Light Duty Vehicles

"The emission test driving cycles are composed of a cold start period, idling, moderate acceleration and deceleration, and cruise modes. The test cycle is given in terms of vehicle speed versus time. The light and medium duty vehicles are driven through the prescribed driving cycle on a chassis roller dynamometer. During operation the engine is required to develop road horse power that depends on the vehicle speed for a given vehicle. The road horsepower requirement versus speed data as provided by the vehicle manufacturer or determined by vehicle coast down test is stored into chassis dynamometer controller to simulate the real life road operation of the vehicle. The vehicle weight i.e. inertia needed during transient modes of the driving cycle is simulated by mechanically changing the rotating masses or electronically changing the inertia on the roller dynamometer."
Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

Coast down is a combination of rolling resistance and aero drag.

Power =Force*Velocity

Power=(F_drag+F_roll)*velocity

Since F_roll is essentially constant and F_drag is proportional to V^2, and the total resistive force is determined by the coastdown test, it is a simple exercise to determine the two components. These are fed into the rolling road to simulate driving along a straight road. Aero drag is included! Wind speed, however, is not accounted for.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - craig-pd130

I wonder of the 'special lubricant' is just ordinary oil laced with gasoline. The gasoline will thin the oil at the start of the test (less friction), then gradually evaporate and go through the PCV and be burned reducing the duty cycle of the injectors, and hence the observed economy...

As you suggest, it certainly won't be the factory fill in either quality or quantity. They probably just use the absolute minimum quantity of the lighest possible viscosity oil in the sump that they can get away with, to minimise oil drag.

In an article about Honda's ill-fated NR500 V4 4-stroke GP racer, the team manager reported that Honda engineers exactly did this when dyno-testing the motor, to produce flattering power figures. They were so blinded with zeal to take on the 2-stroke tyranny that they lost sight of the basics. The trick gave an extra 3 or 4bhp, but the engine couldn't possibly be raced in that trim -- it wouldn't last more than a couple of laps.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

The total amount of fuel consumed in the test is very small. An average of 50mpg over 7 miles (the combined distance of the test) is only 0.14 gallons or ~0.65 litres.

A sump holds ~4-5 litres of lubricant. So if only 5% of this was substituted for fuel, then your measured fuel consumption would drop by ~30%.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - 1litregolfeater

I think the BBC should do more.

All that flipping money and they just prop up the status quo and talk hot air!!!!

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - unthrottled

Whatever the shortcomings of a self-reported database, it is yielding some useful trends: chiefly that the more outlandish the official figure, the greater the discrepency between that figure and the observed ones.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - Collos25

I saw a graph recently in the German press two bars real Co2 and official Co2 outputs it showed the gap getting wider with the real output almost flat lining while the official version was decreasing at a considerable amount every year.I wonder how long it is before governments realise these figures are ficticious and are loosing taxation money.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - Collos25

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=real+car+co2+emissions+graph&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=oTpIUa-ZNoOZtQaL8YGQBg&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1117&bih=606

Not the one I saw but there is a fortnights reading in this lot.

Carmakers manipulate emissions tests - brum

Its all because of EU mandatory targets www.whatcar.com/car-news/ec-lowers-co2-targets-to-...2

Big financial penalties are a big incentive to acheive targets by whatever means...

Don't shout too loud though, the government would love to put up taxes.....

Edited by brum on 19/03/2013 at 11:00