Ethanol and E10 petrol

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
View Threaded
Mon 6 Sep 2021 15:39
Ethanol and E10 petrol - greysynchro

I dont know how much it cost to produce Ethanol, but if it is cheaper than petroleum then surely the price of fuel should come down! Also as Ethanol is made from corn, farmers in some parts of the world will be cutting down rain forests so that they can plant more corrn to satisfy the demand from the oil companies.How to save the planet!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 15:56
Ethanol and E10 petrol - RT

Capitalist countries, as the UK has always been, don't price goods on a cost-basis, they're priced on a supply-and-demand basis - basically as much as the market will stand so don't expect E10 price to come down, despite using more!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 17:42
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

How to save the planet!

Despite all the claptrap about being eco-friendly and reducing emissions, the govt's overriding objective is to 'grow the economy' to keep money circulating at high speed. Doing that is unlikely to help the global warming problem, especially if it is helped by letting the population grow at the same time.

If/when life becomes impossibly warm, humans will probably respond by turning up the air-con. Personal needs usually come before society's - especially when any blame can be aimed at China, who are doing conspicuously little to help. They just go on selling us cheap tat to keep our economies turning.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 7 Sep 2021 13:01
Ethanol and E10 petrol - John F

especially when any blame can be aimed at China, who are doing conspicuously little to help.

Bearing in mind that every person emits the equivalent of about two tons of CO2 per annum from when food is produced to its excretion, the abandonment of the irresponsible religious exhortation to 'go forth and multiply' and the implementation of the one child policy several decades ago with the continuing responsible behaviour of having a small family has probably helped enormously. China is also conspicuously advancing renewable electricity generation and is streets ahead of other nations in favouring long distance high speed electric trains instead of aircraft, and in the proportion of electric cars and buses on the roads. If other nations (e.g. Afghanistan) had behaved in a similar manner they would be neither as poor nor as polluting.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 20:34
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

I dont know how much it cost to produce Ethanol, but if it is cheaper than petroleum then surely the price of fuel should come down! Also as Ethanol is made from corn, farmers in some parts of the world will be cutting down rain forests so that they can plant more corrn to satisfy the demand from the oil companies.How to save the planet!

Logically, unless supply rises in sync, the price of ethanol will increase with the rise in demand until it reaches the cost of the petrol or the ethanol content of E10 (which can be anything between say 5.5% and 10%) for the UK reaches 10%.

I don't know what the relative prices are currently but not many weeks ago ethanol was actually more expensive than petrol.

Possibly one reason why the selected date was 1 September is that it's the month when winter petrol is phased in. This requires the vapour pressure of premium fuel to be raised which is also an effect of adding more ethanol. However there clearly are other means of achieving that including adding butane which is cheaper.

Edited by Manatee on 06/09/2021 at 20:35

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 21:07
Ethanol and E10 petrol - sammy1

One thing I am sure about it has nothing to do with helping the climate change situation. If climate change even exists it has been going on for ever and used to be called evolution and planet formation and is something the human race can do nothing about.. May be China, who have been getting a load of flack about their position have long realised this.

Meanwhile my greatest concern at the moment is will it wreck my lawn mower?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 22:44
Ethanol and E10 petrol - bathtub tom

If climate change even exists it has been going on for ever and used to be called evolution

Meanwhile my greatest concern at the moment is will it wreck my lawn mower?

You don't think man has anything to do with climate?

E10 won't wreck your lawnmower, but it probably won't start next year if you leave E10 petrol in the tank.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 22:48
Ethanol and E10 petrol - alan1302

If climate change even exists it has been going on for ever and used to be called evolution and planet formation and is something the human race can do nothing about..

No if - it does exist - even you don't believe it - and plenty can be done about it, just most people don't want to as it will have an affect on their lifestyles.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 12 Sep 2021 21:25
Ethanol and E10 petrol - focussed

The fact is that you aren't willing to live the kind of lifestyle that is required to effect the kind of change you're promoting.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Mon 6 Sep 2021 23:09
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

<< This requires the vapour pressure of premium fuel to be raised which is also an effect of adding more ethanol. However there clearly are other means of achieving that including adding butane which is cheaper. >>

I would hope they use a higher hydrocarbon than butane (lighter fuel), which is just a bit too volatile as it boils about 0°C - wouldn't stay in the tank very long. Hexane might be nearer the mark ?

Any of you who can remember seeing ICI petrol stations (there was still a sign for one in Alston until quite recently) may know that it was rumoured that part of its purpose was to dispose of excess cyclopentadiene from the Wilton refinery.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 8 Sep 2021 13:20
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

<< This requires the vapour pressure of premium fuel to be raised which is also an effect of adding more ethanol. However there clearly are other means of achieving that including adding butane which is cheaper. >>

I would hope they use a higher hydrocarbon than butane (lighter fuel), which is just a bit too volatile as it boils about 0°C - wouldn't stay in the tank very long. Hexane might be nearer the mark

I'm not a fuel expert, but n-butane is definitely used in petrol blending. I'm guessing it dissolves.

Edited by Manatee on 08/09/2021 at 13:40

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 8 Sep 2021 15:52
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

<< I'm not a fuel expert, but n-butane is definitely used in petrol blending. I'm guessing it dissolves. >>

Well yes, of course it dissolves - or rather just mixes in any proportions. But it will still tend to evaporate quickest from a tank via any breathers as its vapour pressure is well above atmospheric.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 8 Sep 2021 23:26
Ethanol and E10 petrol - focussed

Ethanol is cheaper to produce than petrol. So diluting pure petrol with ethanol lowers the cost to produce. Additionally, ethanol is an oxygenate octane improver, so the base fuel can be refined to a lower octane before the ethanol is added,

So it's a win-win all round for the fuel companies, but not for the car owner, they just get less mpg.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 9 Sep 2021 09:51
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

Ethanol is cheaper to produce than petrol.

Commodity prices

Ethanol
markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/ethanol-pr...e

Gasoline
markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/rbob-gasol...e

At the time of posting, ethanol is 2.22 USD/US gallon, gasoline is 2.13

No doubt there are nuances to this, I know not much about commodities either but I remember reading a few weeks ago in the context of the E10 business that ethanol was dearer than petrol at the time.

So perhaps our E10 will only be just over 5% ethanol for a while if ethanol is actually dearer.

I can't actually find a commodity price for butane but hydrocarbon liquids are AFAIK priced roughly by energy content - propane and butane are fairly similar in that respect and propane is only just over half the price of gasoline, so my guess is the refiners/blenders will prefer butane over ethanol for raising the vapour pressure.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 9 Sep 2021 10:45
Ethanol and E10 petrol - John F

Ethanol is cheaper to produce than petrol.

Commodity prices

Ethanol
markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/ethanol-pr...e

Gasoline
markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/rbob-gasol...e

At the time of posting, ethanol is 2.22 USD/US gallon, gasoline is 2.13

Those are market prices, not production costs. A gallon of gasoline is far cheaper to produce than a gallon of ethanol. It also contains far more energy.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 9 Sep 2021 13:18
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

At the time of posting, ethanol is 2.22 USD/US gallon, gasoline is 2.13

Those are market prices, not production costs.

>>Those are market prices

Exactly. Other things being equal (forward contracts, stocks etc), why wouldn't they minimise the ethanol content in E10 while ethanol is dearer. They need only put 5% in.

I've always thought it odd that a finite and essential resource such as oil should be so cheap when it is so valuable in terms of what it does (one reason why so much tax can be added). But as long as it is relatively easy to extract and there is competition,to do that, it will be tuppence a bucketful, almost until the last drop. An aspect of the market economy that does not improve mankind's prospects.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 9 Sep 2021 09:24
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

<< I'm not a fuel expert, but n-butane is definitely used in petrol blending. I'm guessing it dissolves. >>

Well yes, of course it dissolves - or rather just mixes in any proportions. But it will still tend to evaporate quickest from a tank via any breathers as its vapour pressure is well above atmospheric.

We're going round in circles here, you implied they shouldn't use butane. Fact - they put it in to raise the vapour pressure. That much I remember.

I infer that it will not actually boil off when mixed, even though the lighter hydrocarbons will inevitably be lost first if you leave it lying around long enough. Keep the lid on?

Do you think this is where the positive pressure in the fuel tank comes from? Every time I take the lid off there is a rush of escaping "air".

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 9 Sep 2021 10:39
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

<< Do you think this is where the positive pressure in the fuel tank comes from? Every time I take the lid off there is a rush of escaping "air". >>

The temperature of a car's fuel tank will follow the diurnal cycle to an extent, depending where it is parked. Excess fuel is also returned from engine to tank during running. So if the fuel is high in volatiles, yes, there may well be overpressure when you take the lid off - especially in warm weather. But there should be little call for extra volatiles in petrol in warm weather.

I would guess that refineries may play with the composition of gasoline to minimise flaring off, for example. Butane may be one of the components which can be added.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 12 Sep 2021 19:05
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Big John

I had no option but to fill Mrs BJ's Panda up with E10 petrol today - Tesco had run out of my favorite E5 99RON Greenenergy. I wonder if more people are now buying the higher octane E5 stuff now?

Edited by Big John on 12/09/2021 at 19:07

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 12 Sep 2021 20:13
Ethanol and E10 petrol - JonestHon
I started to use the Esso super unleaded in the Lexus as my model is incompatible with the E10 petrol.
Observation: My car is now doing about three mpg better on my regular commute (visiting the office 45 miles away twice a month) this in comparison to regular E5 which is not on sale anymore.

Does anyone know who make the Ethanol sold to fuel providers?
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sun 12 Sep 2021 21:01
Ethanol and E10 petrol - focussed

There is an ethanol plant near Kings Lynn at Wissington, run by British Sugar making it from sugar beet.

Will that make enough to supply the UK ?

If not it will come from:-

afdc.energy.gov/data/10331

It really doesn't make any sense to produce ethanol from corn (maize?)

"Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/70-percent-mor...l

I would guess that it is much cheaper to make it from waste wood, hay, straw etc.

.

Edited by focussed on 12/09/2021 at 21:20

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 16 Sep 2021 20:51
Ethanol and E10 petrol - brum
Early days yet but judging from first refill with Sainsbury's E10 I'm immediately losing over 10% in economy. More if I go by the brim to brim figure!
Exclusive motorway journeys where 50+ mpg was the norm now only 46mpg indicated, 41 mpg brim to brim??. Looks as if I have to stick with Super unleaded which is 5% more expensive at Sainsbury's.

Skoda Superb 1.4tsi ACT manual.

Absolutely every farmer's field where I live now exclusively growing maize, no more fields of gold or other such proper food crops.

Very depressing, like living in the opening scenes of Interstellar where the earth is dying and the only crop that grows is maize.Even more so if it's true what focussed says about the energy needed to produce ethanol is true.

Add to that Outfox the market informed me 2 weeks ago that my electricity is going up from 15.2p per kWh to over 22p per kWh at the beginning of Oct. Gas is going up by almost double! And according to uSwitch it's still a very good deal!

I wonder when Octopus is going sting all the EV owners.

And why are Scots still getting free electricity for their EVs?
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 16 Sep 2021 21:47
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Xileno

"And why are Scots still getting free electricity for their EVs?"

I think it's only about half of their public charging points that are free. I suspect this will change when it gets to a critical mass of users and also with the price of electricity going up.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 16 Sep 2021 22:20
Ethanol and E10 petrol - focussed

"Absolutely every farmer's field where I live now exclusively growing maize, no more fields of gold or other such proper food crops"

It's probably being grown for winter dairy cattle feed rather than for the maize grain like all around us here in north west france.

The whole plant, which only has tiny cobs about an inch long, is harvested for winter cattle feed by a machine like a huge combine harvester which minces and shreds the whole plant, collected by a tractor/trailer outfit and tipped into the farmer's walled storage silo which is sheeted over to keep the weather out.

Oddly enough, it's harvested around November time when the leaves have turned brown.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0377...7

Edited by focussed on 16/09/2021 at 22:32

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 16 Sep 2021 23:09
Ethanol and E10 petrol - brum

"Absolutely every farmer's field where I live now exclusively growing maize, no more fields of gold or other such proper food crops"

It's probably being grown for winter dairy cattle feed rather than for the maize grain like all around us here in north west france.

The whole plant, which only has tiny cobs about an inch long, is harvested for winter cattle feed by a machine like a huge combine harvester which minces and shreds the whole plant, collected by a tractor/trailer outfit and tipped into the farmer's walled storage silo which is sheeted over to keep the weather out.

Oddly enough, it's harvested around November time when the leaves have turned brown.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0377...7

No, it's being grown for ethanol, big cash crop, all the council owned fields have it. These plants grow to about 2.5 metres tall and have large cobs 15 to 20 cm long
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Thu 16 Sep 2021 23:45
Ethanol and E10 petrol - focussed

Never seen corn cobs on the maize grown around here, obviously there's money to be made at this ethanol lark in the UK !

Edited by focussed on 16/09/2021 at 23:48

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 07:54
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Manatee

No, it's being grown for ethanol, big cash crop, all the council owned fields have it. These plants grow to about 2.5 metres tall and have large cobs 15 to 20 cm long

One does wonder of this has been properly thought through. There is concern already about soil erosion and exhaustion, if we are to start relying on growing for fuel on a massive scale as well as food, that will only accelerate.

The most obvious way to fix the planet is to get rid of about 90% of the humans. We are a blight.

Soylent Green anyone?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 09:32
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

<< One does wonder if this has been properly thought through. >>

Hardly anything is ever 'properly thought through'. Usually the thinking stops at the short term, occasionally it reaches the medium term. In the end it comes down to the financial bottom line, or else winning the next election.

And you are right about the human load on the planet, it's about 4 times over a sustainable level, at a rough guess. I can't see an acceptable solution to that problem either.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 09:45
Ethanol and E10 petrol - bathtub tom

And you are right about the human load on the planet, it's about 4 times over a sustainable level, at a rough guess. I can't see an acceptable solution to that problem either.

Covid?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 12:13
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Andrew-T

<< Covid? >>

No, that's far too weak. Even the Black Death only accounted for about a third of the population .... :-(

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 13:18
Ethanol and E10 petrol - misar

Early days yet but judging from first refill with Sainsbury's E10 I'm immediately losing over 10% in economy. More if I go by the brim to brim figure! Exclusive motorway journeys where 50+ mpg was the norm now only 46mpg indicated, 41 mpg brim to brim??.

Something odd there.

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, even if you somehow went from 0% to the full 10% ethanol your vehicle will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10. We have been using E5 with up to 5% ethanol for a good while and you just moved to E10 with up to 10% ethanol. So you should be losing no more than a couple of percent in economy.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 13:20
Ethanol and E10 petrol - FP

I filled up with E10 last week and so far the car's average consumption calculation, which is usually pretty accurate, is showing no loss of economy at all.

I always do "brim-to-brim", so will have more idea when I fill again.

I do realise, of course, that E10 means "up to 10%" ethanol, so it's possible I got the same stuff I was using before anyway.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 14:20
Ethanol and E10 petrol - madf

I filled up with E10 last week and so far the car's average consumption calculation, which is usually pretty accurate, is showing no loss of economy at all.

I always do "brim-to-brim", so will have more idea when I fill again.

I do realise, of course, that E10 means "up to 10%" ethanol, so it's possible I got the same stuff I was using before anyway.

Ditto. No measurable change yet.

I'll wait for 12 months before I draw any conclusions. Fuelly will show me.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 17 Sep 2021 19:33
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Sprice

Several tankfuls of E10 in my 2009 1.8 Civic now, no noticeable difference in economy or performance. Last fill up at Asda yielded a calculated 47 mpg, previous fill to this was also Asda. Typical calculated mpg on E5 was 43-46 (as were previous few E10 fills), so in theory the last tank was a slight improvement.

Edited by Sprice on 17/09/2021 at 19:36

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 18 Sep 2021 21:26
Ethanol and E10 petrol - Big John

First tankfull of E10 in Mrs's BJ's Fiat Panda 1.2 - thus far no real difference in performance or economy

Reply | Report as offensive | Link