I do wonder how many kids will walk along streets just pulling the plug out for fun!

What if you live on double red lines?

Diesels were for years throwing all sorts out of the tailpipe, you often saw clouds of smoke from exhausts. Modern diesels have add blue, catalytic convertors and the mot is quite strict on emissions so what do we do....make plans to stop selling them. Doing only local journeys an EV would do the job, but I often go on q long trips and the faff of finding chargers and the ache of range anxiety puts me off. Also when the time comes to px your ev how much has the battery degraded....who wants to buy an EV with a battery with a curtailed range? In the summer we are doing Hampshire to Oban, three adults, one dog and the usual luggage etc. Doing that in a little Renault EV does not appeal.

Indeed - this was why I brought up the issue of charging for the huge number of people who live in flats or terraced housing on other threads on EVs. And this person was 'lucky' to get a parking spot outside their own house, given it is first come, first served.

I've also never worked at a company that had more than 50% of car parking spaces for the number of employees driving to work, and even then they had no space for charging points.

I certainly wouldn't want to leave my car in a public car park a long way from my office when charging.

This is definitely one of the core issues with EVs going forward. Everyone focuses on range etc but the reality is if/when EVs get to even equal market share with ICE, charging vehicles safely and securely - especially at work - is going to be the real conundrum.

Looking at this guide to charging the Ioniq the maximum charge rates mentioned are 22Kw, 50 Kw and 150 Kw.

pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/hyundai/2020/ioniq-e...3

One reply above says there is 220 Kw charging for this car, that seems like a high voltage or heavy current, what are the figures for those?

Edited by galileo on 01/03/2021 at 11:23

Ioniq 5, not Ioniq.

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/ioniq5

So 800V battery, interesting!

So, if someone gets injured, say by tripping over a cable or a DIY cover, who is liable?

Does car or house insurance cover such liability, I doubt it.

Is it legal to place a cable like that in a public area. No warning signs, no safety barriers, or diverted pedestrian ways as would be required if a contractor was doing something that put obstacles in the footpath. I wonder if many people even use an RCD safety device, possibly just plug it into a wall plug in the front room and hang the lead out the window. Not sure that lead or connector is safe when it rains, which eventually will get damaged, get dirty and lie in a pool of water.

Im surprised that cars are even allowed to park like that, but maybe thats what the painted dashes are for. Must be a nightmare for pedestrians, particularly the old and infirm and those with baby buggies/prams, or when its dark.

Ae

Edited by brum on 01/03/2021 at 14:07

What benefits consumers get from EV?

• They cost lot to buy.
• They take too long to fill up their tanks.
• They lose a lot on depreciation.
• Plugging it every night at home/office/supermarket etc. is a faff

For someone doing 10k miles a year, how much is the savings on running cost over ICE?

Unless someone wants to make a statement on environment etc, what is the real benefit of getting EV?

Thing is, when these sort of statements get bandied about, it invariably is from the point of someone who steadfastly refuses to see any benefits to EV's, looking at them purely from a 'glass half empty' perspective.

• They cost lot to buy.

Take this for example, if you compare something basic, like a Dacia Sandero, to a Renault Zoe, the difference in price is huge. But if you compare the Zoe to an Audi A1, not so much. Cheapest Zoe is just over £20k, cheapest A1 is just under.

• They take too long to fill up their tanks.

• Plugging it every night at home/office/supermarket etc. is a faff

And here, if you have off street parking and are not doing a long journey, how long it takes to recharge is irrelevant. You'll be sitting in your favourite chair watching TV, rather than on a smelly forecourt standing in the wind and rain catching hypothermia. And if you have off street parking, I'm not sure why you feel plugging it in is any more a faff than plugging in your phone charger?.

• They lose a lot on depreciation.

Most cars lose a lot on depreciation, fact of life. Some EV's may currently lose more than an equivalent ICE car, though I would need to see figures confirming this rather than relying on assumptions by someone who clearly doesn't like EV's. But either way, as EV's become more commonplace, that situation is unlikely to remain the case.

For someone doing 10k miles a year, how much is the savings on running cost over ICE?

In Car Magazine they have started using an energy cost per mile figure, so an EV's running costs can be compared directly with fuel cost of an ICE car. Can't compare to something directly equivalent, as they don't currently have such a car on the long term fleet. But the Zoe they are running has an energy cost figure of 3.1p per mile (that is not the manufacturers figure, but what it is actually costing). As I said, nothing else which could be considered a direct competitor, but here are a few other cars they are running;

Skoda Octavia 2.0TDI - 13.8p per mile.

Mazda 3 (Skyactiv-X) - 14.3p per mile.

Landrover Discovery D240 - 21.6p per mile.

Ford Focus ST - 22.9p per mile.

Vauxhall Grandland X PHEV - 5.8p per mile.

Edited by badbusdriver on 01/03/2021 at 16:24

Even if only 10% of journeys are long, it negates any benefit of having EV as only car in family.

At present, I feel EV is good as 2nd car doing short local journeys but not as only car.

With all respect, I think that is nonsense. You can buy a Tesla Model 3 with a 350 mile range. Other than a travelling salesman, who wouldn't be able to make that work as an only car?. Even the Renault Zoe I mentioned has a range of over 200 miles. Personally, if I had offstreet parking, I could easily make that work as our only car. At the moment, cars like the Honda E, Mazda MX-30, and Mini Electric are not viable to most folk as an only car because of the limited range and limited charging infrastructure. With much more public chargers available, I reckon I could also make a Honda E work as an only car.

Outside of London, I am yet to see anyone having EV as their only car (i.e. no other ICE car in same household). In London it is viable as you have a good public transport as fallback.

And how many people living outside (or even in) London, do you know well enough to be aware of how many cars they have?.

Edited by badbusdriver on 01/03/2021 at 17:44

It has got to the stage where it matters not what individuals think about the merits or otherwise of EVs. Government policy is clearly going down the EV route, and manufacturers are clearly following.

• for the next few years you can buy an ICE - but very soon they will become all but unsaleable (apart from specialist vehicles) on the S/H market
• range, charging points, charging time, cost etc of EVs is still rapidly improving. ICE is mature technology at the end of its time in the sun.
• most doing an average mileage need to recharge once or twice a week, not daily
• they may not yet be a sensible s/h purchase, but the passing of time will make EVs available to an increasingly wider audience.

It's quite possible in 5-10 years time ICE will be restricted in cities, petrol stations will slowly become more scarce, and ICE drivers will be seem as the dinosaurs of the personal transport world.

If EV comes with replaceable battery where you drive to charging station and swap battery in few minutes, then I shall look forward to EVs.

Doubt you will need to due to new battery tech replacing current tech, solid state appears to be coming on rather well at the moment with longer range-possibly doubled and charging times improved as well to the point a full charge could be achieved in 20 minutes

battery tech is coming on thick and fast now, which will assist in safer batteries with less chance of fires and shorts as present batteries are prone to....

I am getting your point just fine, that isn't the problem. The problem is that what you are saying is just your opinion, but you seem to be assuming that it is fact, and that everyone else shares (or should) the same view.

You are not getting my point. Something can be done does not mean it should be done.It can go 350 miles. But I can fill up a ICE car for another 400 miles range in 5 minutes. EV can't match that convenience. For me waiting hours for chargng full range is an inconvenience

Seriously, who is going to be driving 750 miles non stop, or as close to non stop as is possible?.

If, you regularly need to drive 750 miles without stopping for any more time than it takes to fill the tank, I think it is fair to say, EV's are not going to work for you. But the point you seem to be completely missing is that very, very few, other people, would do a run anything like that long, and they certainly wouldn't do it without stopping for a break.

If I need to start a 200 mile journey with ICE car when fuel warning light is lit, I can fill up in 5 minutes and then I'm off.

If you need to start a 200 mile journey in an electric car, unless you are very disorganised, it will be fully charged when you set off. So that is an immediate win for EV.

There could be an emergency where I can't wait hours to charge my car.

This is just clutching at straws now!. Yes, there could be an emergency when your EV is at home with a more or less flat battery, but given the amount of time you spend on the road, surely it is more likely to happen when you are away and can't do anything before spending hours driving home?.

But going back to long journeys. When my Dad still drove, him and Mum would go away on road trips, Mum would be wanting to stop for a toilet break and cuppa well inside 100 miles!. And while they may be at the opposite end of the stamina scale from you, I rather suspect most people would be wanting to stop for a break after no more than 2-3 hours. The furthest I have ever driven in this country (in one day) was Aberdeen to Wigan (around 330 miles), just about do-able in the Tesla non stop. And while, when I was young, I would do this with only a fuel and toilet stop, there is no way I'd manage that these days, nor would I want to. Furthest I'm likely to drive these days would be down to Glasgow to see my son, a journey which is within the Zoe's range.

Jump forward say 10 years the UK population has increased by 3million maybe more. The road structure has probably not changed that much and smart motorways gone. It is August and the UK is at the peak of the holiday season. Just take the M5 to the West Country. How is this artery going to cope with the volume of EVs moving and how are they going to charge to reach their destination and then get home You cannot convince me that there will be enough charging points at Motorway services to cope and if you go off motorway the infrastructure of the country has enough capacity. We have all been in peak traffic jams and I can only see these getting worse Somebody is going to have to Magic one hell of an improvement to battery technology and the way they are charged.

Call me cynical but the end of ICE will probably see the end of a lot of people owning a car with all the impracticalities of running EV

I was a EV-sceptic like you, Movilogo, until quite recently. Relying on an EV as your only car is, as Sir Humphrey said in Yes, Minister, 'very courageous'. And we're still not at the stage, as this thread shows, where pure EVs are a good bet for people parking in the street.

But a great many 'average Joes' have more than one car, as we do, and where possible will be installing home chargers. I think that for us one EV and one ICE car will suit us fine, but I'll keep an open mind and will be honest enough to admit it if I'm wrong.

I suppose if Average Joe or Joanna live on their own, and can't afford or justify two cars for one driver, ICE is still the best bet for now. A PHEV is worth thinking about, but you'd have to be sure that your journeys are mostly short, the particular model is one that holds its value, and ideally you can get a good deal on one as Skidpan has recently on a Superb IV.

Edit - yes, good point, Sammy. But 2030 is nine years away. Think back to nine years ago: how many charging points were there in 2012? I think we'll see a lot of progress.... but if we don't, and your nightmare scenario still looks likely, the next Government after this will no doubt push back the deadline for fear of losing the 2028/29 election by a landslide.

Edited by Avant on 01/03/2021 at 23:16

You don't score any points with that one, BBD. Any person organised enough to plug in an EV will be equally organised to fill with fuel somewhere instead of plugging in !

Movilogo says, "If I set off on a 20 mile journey and the fuel light is lit.....", which suggests to me it is something which has happened.

Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things because of the short time needed to fill up, so you can 'get away with' being a bit disorganised. You can't with an EV, because of charging time, and because of this you would always make sure that battery was fully charged before you set off.

Here is a good article

www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-cars-uk-buying-gu...e

This is exactly what I am talking about re the glass half empty attitude to EV's. You start off by saying no EV's are suitable for use as an only car. Yet to support this view, you are presenting a link to an article which emphatically does not support that view. Further, you post a statement under the link saying this, "if you plan to rely on a smaller capacity EV as your only car, and occasionally have to cover long distances, you might want to hold off or even buy a hybrid for now". Which, due to the inclusion of the words, small capacity, also does not concur with what you are saying. A Tesla, any Tesla, is not a small capacity EV, Avant's new EV (I forget whether it is a Kia Rio or Hyundai Kona, but they use the same battery pack and motors) is not a small capacity, I don't even think the Renault Zoe would be classed as a small capacity EV with its 215 mile range. A small capacity EV would be something along the lines of a Honda E, Mazda MX-30, and Mini Electric. And nobody, including me, is saying any of those three are currently suitable as an only car.

Edited by badbusdriver on 02/03/2021 at 08:25

The furthest I have ever driven in this country (in one day) was Aberdeen to Wigan (around 330 miles),

We do 4 trips annually of 430 miles, no current electric car will do this with some spare capacity for delays, diversion etc. This makes all currently available EV's unsuitable for us.

But for us the PHEV is a good option, we can make those trips with no issues and the short trips we make to the shops (and hopefully cafes etc in the near future) on electric.

Regarding James May having an electric i3 and now a hydrogen Toyota has no one considered that as a journo he will get the cars on loan for free. Not really a statement of his belief in the technology when he's not paying is it?

With regards to hydrogen, in a recent thread on another forum several posters were insisting that electric will die and hydrogen will take over. There may be some merit in hydrogen cars but with the current network of places to refuel they are simply pointless. Only 13 sites in the UK sell hydrogen, 7 in the SE. 2 in South Wales, 2 in the West Midlands, one in Doncaster and one in Aberdeen. EV's may not have the same coverage as petrol/diesel vehicles but its better than that, substantially. We could do our 430 miles with two stops (possibly one if it was in the right place i.e 1/2 way and the car had enough range) but that would more than double the journey time (with a car that charges at "normal" rates possibly needing overnight accommodation), not really acceptable when we have been doing the trip in about 8 hours (or less) for over 25 years.

As I said, the PHEV will work fine for us.

The average annual UK mileage is below 10,000 miles - approx 200 miles per week.

Very few motorists make journeys of over 100 miles.

The charging infrastructure is growing rapidly. In a free market this will increase (broadly) to match demand with charging points in supermarkets, hotels, car parks, work places etc..

It is entirely possible to run a single EV with a range of (say) 200 miles and never have a problem. If occassionally a longer journey is needed, a car hire is possible.

For a few, charging times and availability of charging points may be a real issue based on current technology. They are free to run ICE - although by the late 2020s the choice of new vehicles will be limited. By the mid 2030s, ICE will be an outdated technology.

It can't be done on averages as everyone has a significant variation - the concept of car hire for longer journeys is a cop out - many people drive through the continent for their holiday, can you image the cost of a hire car for that!.

No, they really don't. Some do, no question, but the notion that everyone does is absurd. Same with driving through the continent on holiday. Yes, clearly some do, but I'd bet my house that far more folk don't than do.

Those who are advocating use of EVs, can you please explain in 1-2 sentences what are benefits of EVs to common public?

Please exclude following as benefit

1. No option of ICE after 2030

2. Good for environment

It is a genuine question, I would like to know why an average Joe needs EV now.

Given that 1 is a fait accompli I can see why one might exclude it but 2 seems reasonable enough. The facts on EV pollution at manufacture or in use are not agreed.

Those who are advocating use of EVs, can you please explain in 1-2 sentences what are benefits of EVs to common public?

Please exclude following as benefit

1. No option of ICE after 2030

2. Good for environment

It is a genuine question, I would like to know why an average Joe needs EV now.

I don't think the average Joe does need an EV at the moment. In time as costs come down, range improves and charging times decrease more and more people will be interested due to the cost savings in having no petrol/diesel costs, the fact that you get a good/quick car, more reliable as less to go wrong.

1. No option of ICE after 2030

That's not true. No NEW cars after 2030 sure. But used cars? My existing car? Good luck trying to stop those.

Dover and Eurotunnel are the largest cross channel operations - assume others increase total car crossings to 6m.

Each crossing normally involves a return - approx 3m cars do the return crossing each year.

Of those 3m some are Europeans visiting the UK - so assume UK vehicles account for 2m crossings each year.

Some of these do multiple trips - so the number of individual vehecles is ~1.5m

There are 33m cars in the UK

So around 4% of cars cross the channel each year.

Toyota ready to unveil solid-state battery EV in 2021 | Autoblog

They are investing a lot in Hydrogen as well. sorry if you`ve seen this before

Has anyone mentioned depreciation?

I know that Prius values fall off the edge of a cliff after five years as many councils will not allow their use at this age.

land my neighbours i8 which cost 120k new is now valued at 75 k after two years!

Just had a look on Autotrader - 2016 "proper" Prius go for around £12-15k with a normal mileage. Fairly normal depreciation!

There are also plenty of ex-taxis going for a lot less with mega mileages and imports with no original manufacturing date.

Every vehicle has a VIN number. Embedded within that number is a year code letter for year of manufacture.

support.alldata.com/alldata-repair-online-article/...t

I wonder when all brands start manufacturing EVs, how will public differentiate between brands?

Currently there some perceptions (not necessarily always factually correct) that Toyota is reliable, PSA unreliable, BMW flashy etc.

I may be wrong, but I think current public perception about EV is that Tesla is better than others (even though Tesla has lots of reliability issues).

Will manufacturers be able to translate their ICE success into EV or EV will re-calibrate public perception about existing brands?

Not content wth that, they've started using similarly incompetent software in the new Golf and Octavia

Evidence please. VAG have been selling the PHEV Passat and Golf since about 2014 and never read about this "incompetent" software before. Surely the Superb has the same software as well and as above never read about any issues with them.

Well you wouldn't, as the issues do not affect cars from before the ID.3. The problems seem to centre around the ID.3, and new cars from around the same time with the same software, like the 8th gen Golf and, presumably, the new Octavia.

Confused. The ID3 is full electric, the Golf and Octavia (and A3 and Leon) are PHEV or mild hybrid. Totally different drive trains surely. How can they have the same software issues.

Just Googled again and all I can find for the Mk8 Golf was e-call and over the air updates early in 2020, long before the ID3 was introduced. Golf deliveries were stopped whilst the problems were sorted. The Octavia has only just been released so the old issues should not affect it.

I've watched reviews of both the ID3 amd ID4 and in both cases there have been issues reported of the infotainment screen freezing and not just a glitch where on/off sorts it, the car has to be switched off and left for an extended period.

Not what should be happening, but VW do appear to use buyers as beta testers.

Also, My mobile phone is charged without a cable by placing it over a charge pad within my car. Will this not be an option for cars? Have a charge pad placed on your drive way and drive onto it or place it under the car after you have stopped? Or better still a charge pad built into the asphalt so no cables on show?

I think that is a long way off as the size of coils required to produce the magnetic fields will be very large compared to a mobile phone charger, and its less efficient, ie will take longer to charge than a cable at the moment.

I suspect with tech improving it will change in a few years to assist in charging solid state batteries, though I gather China may use them to charge Buses overnight, though not sure how far they`ve been developed yet?

also solid state is not affected by weather, so maintains its range in any weather so they say?

Edited by bolt on 06/03/2021 at 14:14

I was walking through a terrace street area this week, the amount of electric car charges dangling out of windows across the public footpath will create a growing hazard to pavement users

Nice to know what is going on in the country. I suspect this will become the norm and be ignored by councils and police to the detriment of the old, blind, infirm and the otherwise unobservant on there mobiles

I was walking through a terrace street area this week, the amount of electric car charges dangling out of windows across the public footpath will create a growing hazard to pavement users

Nice to know what is going on in the country. I suspect this will become the norm and be ignored by councils and police to the detriment of the old, blind, infirm and the otherwise unobservant on there mobiles

Just wait till the criminal brigade and the social misfits catch on...

The same lot who regularly nick telephone and even power cables from the railways will be pleased - lots of nice free copper, ready and waiting...

On the upside, housebuilders will breathe a sigh of relief that they won't be targeted for their copper pipework so much...

And probably kill people with pacemakers!

The same roads had electric charge points built into the lampposts but there is more electric cars than lampposts in some parts of terrace areas in London. When electric cars really pick up in terms of sales for a sustained period this will be a major problem in terrace streets; it’s not as if you can put a lamppost outside every house nor is it possible to wait for a slow 8 hour charge if you need to use your car in the morning and the chargers are all occupied!

Even more of a problem if one house is allowed only one charger due to power coming into house which has 2 or 3 cars, which most households have now

Also, My mobile phone is charged without a cable by placing it over a charge pad within my car. Will this not be an option for cars? Have a charge pad placed on your drive way and drive onto it or place it under the car after you have stopped? Or better still a charge pad built into the asphalt so no cables on show?

It could be - but that kind of charging is more inefficient that a standard cable and with the amount of charge that a car could require then at least for now a proper plugged in cable is a better idea.

Also, My mobile phone is charged without a cable by placing it over a charge pad within my car. Will this not be an option for cars? Have a charge pad placed on your drive way and drive onto it or place it under the car after you have stopped? Or better still a charge pad built into the asphalt so no cables on show?

It could be - but that kind of charging is more inefficient that a standard cable and with the amount of charge that a car could require then at least for now a proper plugged in cable is a better idea.

Norway is apparently going to start using induction charging on taxi stands and bus routes (though that will take years to install)

Norway will install the world’s first wireless electric car charging stations for Oslo taxis (evconnectors.com)

I wonder if we will take up the idea ??

I expect that we will do (eventually and slowly)

I wonder if we will take up the idea ??

Remember all the fuss about power lines causing cancer from electro magnetic radiation (EMR) years ago? I think the same argument is still rattling around about mobile phones. Induction charging for vehicles would cause massive EMR at ground level. I'll just wait for the tin-foil hat wearing brigade to protest.

<< I`m sure enough tests will take place to prove them wrong, even if most know not what they talk about anyway, just think they do... >>

I don't doubt the possibility of this method of charging, but I wonder what proportion of the transmitted energy goes into the battery compared to the amount radiated elsewhere ? At least a cable connection puts it all in tank, as it were.

<< I`m sure enough tests will take place to prove them wrong, even if most know not what they talk about anyway, just think they do... >>

I don't doubt the possibility of this method of charging, but I wonder what proportion of the transmitted energy goes into the battery compared to the amount radiated elsewhere ? At least a cable connection puts it all in tank, as it were.

There are losses with cable charging though not sure how much, but no electricity transfer is lossless even though some say there isn't, but due to cable makeup and resistance there is

Just a case of what is acceptable.

The energy loss in cable transmission is mostly heat, typically 2-4%, with total losses up to 15%.

<< There are losses with cable charging though not sure how much, but no electricity transfer is lossless even though some say there isn't, but due to cable makeup and resistance there is. Just a case of what is acceptable. >>

The cable loss will happen anyway as power has to get to the inductive transmitter somehow - which has to be under the vehicle, I assume ?

And if charging is to be rapid the cabling must be heavy-duty and as short as feasible, to limit those losses.

I still don't see the obsession in having to have a home charger. After all, we don't need petrol pumps at home. Once it becomes quicker to charge a car at a public charging point home chargers will, for some, be unnecessary.

Thanks skidpan, I now see the appeal more than I did. I'd rather the future was hybrid rather than EV.

<< Hybrid is definitely the only way for us at present with 4 x 430 mile drives a year but who knows what the charging infrastructure will be like by 2030 and what the range of cars will be like by then, things are improving on both fronts all the time. If the range is not good enough for our needs by 2030 at least hybrids will still be on sale for a period after that (providing they are still made). >>

We are only starting to find out the actual mpg figures for hybrid cars, and they are only a modest fraction of the manufacturer's figures in most cases. As the big push towards EVs was for environmental reasons, it would be embarrassing to find that the overall gain is negative.

But I suppose that usually happens - with lead additives, switch to diesel, back to petrol, etc .... Trouble is, most people only do financial calculations.

Edited by Andrew-T on 08/03/2021 at 12:45

The problems for people living in flats or terraced housing with limited space/parking means that they would have to be catered for by a very robust system for charging EVs.

Judging by what a sparky told me, if the property has a linked mains with another Flat/house they will only be able to have one charging point each due to regulations

Maybe someone with more knowledge could give more info on this, as it appears that those with more than one EV may not be able to charge at home unless the process is speeded up?

Many fast chargers have 2 outputs that can be used to charge 2 cars at the same time. But the charge rate is shared between the two, so you don't get the max rate in that case.

Was going to post that but you beat me.