It's in the nature of forums that people come and go: some get bored / too busy and move on, others come back after a break.
But I can Email GB and wish him happy New Year, and say that some of us have been missing him and his always helpful controbutions. I think he said he moved a few years ago from car transporting to a 'normal' lorry, posibly a tanker.
If I remember correctly he was doing bulk grain delivery possibly for general mills.
|
If I remember correctly he was doing bulk grain delivery possibly for general mills.
He was never shy about saying what he did and who for. He was on car transporters but jacked it in complaining about changes in work conditions and erosion of his professional independence.
Might have done a stint agency driving but then secured a job with a large but independent grain miller driving tankers - bulk powder. He wrote quite a bit about the challenges of that and the automation of modern lorries.
|
|
|
|
|
Great idea Avant, I forgot you could do that sort of thing. If there was a thumbs up button i'd press it..
|
|
I had a very nice Email back from GB. Sadly, he has indeed given this forum up because of what he felt were too much politics and too many snide comments. A sad and avoidable loss to us.
Can we please:
(a) respect each other's views even if we disagree strongly with them: they are as entitled to theirs as we are to ours.
(b) be kind to people who come on here and ask very basic questions. Nobody likes to be belittled or (worse) called a spammer.
(c) if we really must bring politics into a motoring forum, start the discussion in the General section, so that people who look at a motoring forum because they're interested in motoring don't have to read a whole lot of tirades.
|
|
I have also been tempted to give up posting,not because of remarks made to me, except for 1 poster...but the wider problem is the politics,
Also, the main site section is now very rarely updated, news and questions..
It has been a good forum, but .....
|
|
|
Ref the spamming accusation, I will point out that I never called it a basic question, or even insinuated, that assertion came from you. I will wait for a spammer to reveal themselves in future, not worth the aggro of getting it wrong!
Sad to see GB go but glad to hear it is just giving up on the forum, rather than anything more sinister.
With the money behind the sites new German owners I am surprised they haven’t given this forum an overhaul. At least they haven’t deleted it like a lot of the classic car reviews appear to have been.
|
|
|
(c) if we really must bring politics into a motoring forum, start the discussion in the General section, so that people who look at a motoring forum because they're interested in motoring don't have to read a whole lot of tirades.
To be fair to those who've risen to political 'bait' GB wasn't backward in letting his own politics show.
|
|
This is true. I tended to agree with him but did so silently most of the time as he had already made the point I would make.
|
|
|
|
|
Good to hear that he is ok. He will be missed. As for his reasons for leaving they are understandable. I have always felt that there is no point in discussing politics or religion as you will never change other people's views. In fact I find it embarrassing when those topics come up in conversation.
|
I have always felt that there is no point in discussing politics or religion as you will never change other people's views.
I can accept others' political views up to a (fairly extreme) point. As a lifelong scientist I find it very hard to tolerate those who refuse to believe experimentally established fact. Most of them would not see themselves as Flat Earthers, but some certainly are.
|
|
|
|
I had a very nice Email back from GB. Sadly, he has indeed given this forum up because of what he felt were too much politics and too many snide comments. A sad and avoidable loss to us.
Avoidable in what way? Agreeing with him instead of explaining why you think he is wrong? He was very quick to give his opinion but did not like anyone disagreeing with him as in his view he was 'right'.
Over the last few years you can see this more and more online - people have a fixed view and that is it. They then only like posting somewhere where everyone agrees with them and people then start not taking on different views.
|
|
|
|
I'm very glad to hear GB is well and hope that Avant may find an opportunity to pass on our best wishes.
It's not surprising (to me) that the political fighting has side-lined him, although, as someone points out below, he was perfectly capable of giving a good account of himself.
The whole conversation in this thread prompts some reflection on the politically themed discussions that have recently taken place on this forum. For me, they have proved a spectacular waste of time - a dialogue of the deaf.
As a PhD student I think I'm intellectually capable of rational argument, but I'm used to an environment where people want to learn something and wish to evaluate ideas critically. That has been lacking in most of the political discussions here.
So, though I didn't always sympathise with GB's views, I quite understand his position. It's unfortunate that he doesn't wish to contribute to any non-political threads here; often I found his posts very interesting. I imagine he found the sometimes aggressive discussion elsewhere unpalatable and felt his own views were under-represented. Maybe that left a rather nasty taste in his mouth.
Edited by FP on 20/01/2021 at 15:31
|
|
GB's technical advice has been based on many years of wide experience and sound logic.
I would submit that his views on other matters are similarly based and many points he has made are reasonable, even if seen as politically incorrect.
|
and felt his own views were under-represented.
That was possibly because a majority of posters on the threads did not share his views.
I for one will only post what I believe in and if the majorities views are different to GB's he will be under-represented.
Edited by skidpan on 20/01/2021 at 17:46
|
and felt his own views were under-represented.
That was possibly because a majority of posters on the threads did not share his views.
I for one will only post what I believe in and if the majorities views are different to GB's he will be under-represented.
I think you also have to understand that just because the majority of responses are in one direction - especially on politics, does not mean most Backroomers agree with that 'majority view'.
I suspect that many do not like to get involved in 'punch & judy' political debate, even though they may disagree vehemently with either the person starting the thread or the 'majority viewpoint', mainly because they are here predominantly to talk about motoring issues and the occasional 'other' one - whether for practical advice or discussion on a motoring issue, or a bit of fun on something else.
Despite what some may think, I do not relish getting involved in 'punch & judy' political debate, but I, and I suspect others, possibly including GB from time-to-time, cannot just stand by and let some of the comments and views expressed just pass without reply.
Eventually though, people reach a point where they just get fed up of doing so, especially when they make a genuine effort to prove an opinion is correct, e.g. with substantive evidence that gets summarily dismissed, often without being read or viewed.
Some Backroomers may 'live' for politics and activism, but I don't. I've suggested on a good number of occasions that we try and steer clear of blatant partisan politics (I don't start threads on such matters) and try, especially in the current times, to discuss other issues whilst motoring takes more of a back seat because of global events.
I suspect that in the end, people who go here to get away from politics don't want to be drawn into it, as it is often counter-productive, especially in today's society. If such debates just lead to one set of opinions being expressed on political issuesthat have nationally and globally have been diverse for generations, then those feeling their views are not respected will just leave, diminishing the site and possibly leading to its closure.
Might I suggest those who come here for the politics/activism first and motoring second join a newspaper or politcal magaine website and use that to discuss such matters the rest of the day.
|
and felt his own views were under-represented.
That was possibly because a majority of posters on the threads did not share his views.
I for one will only post what I believe in and if the majorities views are different to GB's he will be under-represented.
I think you also have to understand that just because the majority of responses are in one direction - especially on politics, does not mean most Backroomers agree with that 'majority view'.
I suspect that many do not like to get involved in 'punch & judy' political debate, even though they may disagree vehemently with either the person starting the thread or the 'majority viewpoint', mainly because they are here predominantly to talk about motoring issues and the occasional 'other' one - whether for practical advice or discussion on a motoring issue, or a bit of fun on something else.
Despite what some may think, I do not relish getting involved in 'punch & judy' political debate, but I, and I suspect others, possibly including GB from time-to-time, cannot just stand by and let some of the comments and views expressed just pass without reply.
Eventually though, people reach a point where they just get fed up of doing so, especially when they make a genuine effort to prove an opinion is correct, e.g. with substantive evidence that gets summarily dismissed, often without being read or viewed.
Some Backroomers may 'live' for politics and activism, but I don't. I've suggested on a good number of occasions that we try and steer clear of blatant partisan politics (I don't start threads on such matters) and try, especially in the current times, to discuss other issues whilst motoring takes more of a back seat because of global events.
I suspect that in the end, people who go here to get away from politics don't want to be drawn into it, as it is often counter-productive, especially in today's society. If such debates just lead to one set of opinions being expressed on political issuesthat have nationally and globally have been diverse for generations, then those feeling their views are not respected will just leave, diminishing the site and possibly leading to its closure.
Might I suggest those who come here for the politics/activism first and motoring second join a newspaper or politcal magaine website and use that to discuss such matters the rest of the day.
Well said Andy, couldn't agree more.
|
|
My new year resolution.
No more comments on politics
If it ain't motoring. / transport related I'll give it a miss.
|
|
|
|
Despite what some may think, I do not relish getting involved in 'punch & judy' political debate, but I, and I suspect others, possibly including GB from time-to-time, cannot just stand by and let some of the comments and views expressed just pass without reply.
Oddly enough that's pretty much my starting point too. My political viewpoint is that of the old fashioned moderate, mixed economy left. If forced to name my political Lodestar I'd say the late Anthony Crosland and commend his 'The Future of Socialism' even if it's getting a bit dated after the post 45 consensus has gone.
For those with an interest in such things as Trump/post Trump America, the rights/wrongs of Brexit or the merits or de-merits of the Johnson Government then the General Discussion forum seems an OK place debate and agree or disagree. A sort of backroom off the backroom where our occasionally raised voices won't disturb the others too much.
I'm happy to say I enjoy such debate although, contrary to the opinion/characterisation of some I am not committed to politics still less activism. I did some leafletting in the Euro elections during the nineties and I've attended one or two CLP meetings in the last year. I do, and will continue to, contribute on other stuff. My mechanical knowledge is limited as is my experience of different cars and my rather one size fits all response of 'Berlingo' when choice of car is being discussed. I do though have a reasonable knowledge of other stuff, or where to find information on it and contribute accordingly in Motoring and Legal; I'm not going anywhere.
As far as debate goes it's a given that neither the proposers/seconders nor those speaking against the motion are going to be persuaded. The point is to carry the floor or at least get a few of them to think 'good point'.
There are some subjects involving Motoring that are almost indivisible from politics. Taxation of vehicles and fuel are one, parking controls and congestion/low emission zones are another. Anything involving getting car parts or accessories from the EU might well engage Brexit as tax/duty and delays at the borders bite.
I will admit a bit of 'Mea Culpa' for diverting threads by challenging 'what about' type examples that compare bananas with apples or picking up on the use of terms like Citizen Khan for the Mayor of London. It might have been funny the first time but it's long ago lost its originality and is used in some quarters as a 'dog whistle' reference (via the TV series) to his origins.
Perhaps I should sit on my hands occasionally?
Edited by Bromptonaut on 23/01/2021 at 15:31
|
|
Nothing to disagree with there, Bromptonaut. You're a shining example of how it's perfetly possible to say what you think without being in any way offensive.
I agree that politics can come into many motoring threads. I'll move a thread to General only if it's moved right away from the motoring topic that it started with.
|
Nothing to disagree with there, Bromptonaut. You're a shining example of how it's perfetly possible to say what you think without being in any way offensive.
I agree that politics can come into many motoring threads. I'll move a thread to General only if it's moved right away from the motoring topic that it started with.
Forgive me there, Avant, but I must disagree. In my view, Bromtonaut does not always provide a 'shining example' of how to say what you think without being in any way offensive.
He likes to (often) defend his actions on threads by invoking the 'magical name' of Tony Crosland (that I have rarely heard since his death around 45 years ago), be I and perhaps others on the other side of the political aisle would categorise his style as more 'Peter Mandleson'.
That he, on this and two other threads (including one he started), IMHO, tried to stir things up just when here we were trying to calm things down, including posting what another Backroomer has classed as 'misleading' rather lends credence to my assertion. There's debate and there's deliberate framing and manipulation for a blatant political aim.
I think you erred in the 'Where is the USA Heading' thread by chiming in a partisan way and then defending those who freely admitted gaslighting myself - a term that the Home Office no less uses in relation to harrassment of people.
As a moderator, there are a few topics - very contentious political ones in particular, that I feel a moderator should only ever get involved in as regards moderating the tone of debate, not making a very partisan point making it clear which side you are on and defending people who freely admit to and appear to take pleasure in gaslighting others.
It could give proverbial ammunition to those who think differently that you favour those on the other side of a political debate and aren't being fair to both sides. Up until now, I would have always defended yourself as being a fair moderator, having had your support in the past on matters related to a troll on the News section.
|
|
Forgive me there, Avant, but I must disagree. In my view, Bromtonaut does not always provide a 'shining example' of how to say what you think without being in any way offensive.
He likes to (often) defend his actions on threads by invoking the 'magical name' of Tony Crosland (that I have rarely heard since his death around 45 years ago), be I and perhaps others on the other side of the political aisle would categorise his style as more 'Peter Mandleson'.
I only mention Crosland so as to refute, and re-refute, the idea that I'm on the extreme left. I'd never any time for Mandelson. My stuff is the technical ins/outs of policy. I avoided office politics of the sort that involve personalities.
I bit my lip at posting in this thread to see who said what and which way it went. I'd be a liar if I said I'd never posted something which I thought others may see as provocative but I would deny setting out to do so or that it is regular conduct of mine.
|
|
I am not like the Speaker of the House of Commons: I am entitled to express my views if I want to, although as a moderator I have a duty not to be personal or offensive. As indeed is Bromptonaut who is careful never to make remarks ad hominem.
This thread seems to have exhausted itself on the topic of our regret at GB's departure. Unless anyone has anything useful to add on this I'll close it tomorrow.
|
I am not like the Speaker of the House of Commons: I am entitled to express my views if I want to, although as a moderator I have a duty not to be personal or offensive. As indeed is Bromptonaut who is careful never to make remarks ad hominem.
I would call Brompt asking me "What on earth are you on EA" or
"Of course if you want to believe that it shows malfeasance and you've absorbed that message since Trump started laying the ground in the summer than you may well be one of 17 million rioting"
...as ad hominem.
|
I would call Brompt asking me "What on earth are you on EA" or
It was intended to be humorous - along the lines of I'll have one of what he's on. If it came over in another way then I'm sorry.
"Of course if you want to believe that it shows malfeasance and you've absorbed that message since Trump started laying the ground in the summer than you may well be one of 17 million rioting"
...as ad hominem.
A general observation on Trump's supporters and the way he's worked the crowd since first starting the fraud hare running well before polling day. Although I used the word you it referred to Trumps followers and not Andy personally; I could have used 'one' and achieved the same meaning.
|
|
What's the logic in closing a thread? It seems a little drastic, why not just move it to general?
|
|
<< It could give proverbial ammunition to those who think differently that you favour those on the other side of a political debate and aren't being fair to both sides. Up until now, I would have always defended yourself as being a fair moderator, >>
Hmmm. Knowing, as I think many of us do, E-A's position on the political spectrum, I can't help thinking that it must be difficult for those some way from the centre to feel that they are treated 'fairly'. Fairness is a subjective concept. I have always preferred the theoretical centre of politics, regarding socialism as a nice theory which is usually shown to fail in practice, as it doesn't allow for human nature. One need only consider the behaviour of our present cabinet to see the failings at the other end.
Unfortunately, as in football, and especially American politics, there is no room for an effective centre, as the arguments are always a contest between the opposites.
|
<< It could give proverbial ammunition to those who think differently that you favour those on the other side of a political debate and aren't being fair to both sides. Up until now, I would have always defended yourself as being a fair moderator, >>
Hmmm. Knowing, as I think many of us do, E-A's position on the political spectrum, I can't help thinking that it must be difficult for those some way from the centre to feel that they are treated 'fairly'. Fairness is a subjective concept. I have always preferred the theoretical centre of politics, regarding socialism as a nice theory which is usually shown to fail in practice, as it doesn't allow for human nature. One need only consider the behaviour of our present cabinet to see the failings at the other end.
Unfortunately, as in football, and especially American politics, there is no room for an effective centre, as the arguments are always a contest between the opposites.
You assume my political position incorrectly - my position on many issues is, like many, far more nuanced than you believ - I am no ideologue.
The problem is that many people these days think that anyone who doesn't hold their view is 'extremist', as you accused me of on that thread. Rather a pity you didn't read what I said.
That you believe the current UK government's cabinet to be 'at the other end' to socialism is laughable. What some call 'centrist' is not what it was 20 years ago, never mind further back. As politics currently show, the polarisation is far more than just generalisations about Left and Right.
I wouldn't make those comments about socialism - you might find Bromptonaut not being so friendly if you bring it up again during a 'debate'.
|
|
<< The problem is that many people these days think that anyone who doesn't hold their view is 'extremist', as you accused me of on that thread. Rather a pity you didn't read what I said >>
Not sure what this is about. As for assumptions, you are assuming what assumptions I have made, while I have carefully not specified what I think your position on the spectrum is. Anyhow, as we seem to have little common ground, I shall not add further to this, as Avant sees little future in it.
|
|
|
|
|
'm very glad to hear GB is well and hope that Avant may find an opportunity to pass on our best wishes.
It's not surprising (to me) that the political fighting has side-lined him,
I'll second the first point. Can't really second the second, because I do find it a bit surprising,
Havn't really noticed a lot of political argy-bargy, which is probably just as well, since I might have joined in.
The last (as in most recent) forum I got banned from, Bob is The Oil Guy, a US-based oil obsessives site, had a No Politics rule. This is OK in principle, if even-handed, but its a pretty good trick taking oil out of global (and of course, US) politics, and in practice it meant Only The Right Kind of Politics.
If any lefties (with a passing interest in oil) are chafing under the present regime here I suggest they sign up at BITOG and see how long they last.
Edited by edlithgow on 21/01/2021 at 10:05
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
