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Should be assassinated! C
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Was I dreaming it or did a chap somewhere in the West Country invent or is trying to develop an alternative form of fuel for internal combustion? Seem to recall Hydrogen or Water being part of the process ( I know water is a goodly part hydrogen). I must say that I am surprise some bright spark of a Chemist has not developed some form of alternative to carbon based fuel. The untold riches await. Maybe the oil companies have them assinated!! Cue the conspiracy theory!!!! Cheers Concrete
I remember someone trying water injected into the manifold as a fine mist but it kept stalling over 1200rpm but not heard anymore, that was in the 80s
apart from steam engines it wont work unless they are dreaming:)
I think its been attempted a few times by different people
Edited by bolt on 10/12/2019 at 18:19
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Was I dreaming it or did a chap somewhere in the West Country invent or is trying to develop an alternative form of fuel for internal combustion? Seem to recall Hydrogen or Water being part of the process ( I know water is a goodly part hydrogen). I must say that I am surprise some bright spark of a Chemist has not developed some form of alternative to carbon based fuel. The untold riches await. Maybe the oil companies have them assinated!! Cue the conspiracy theory!!!! Cheers Concrete
I remember someone trying water injected into the manifold as a fine mist but it kept stalling over 1200rpm but not heard anymore, that was in the 80s
apart from steam engines it wont work unless they are dreaming:)
I think its been attempted a few times by different people
Er...Water injection is a very well established, documented technique, with a sound technical basis. Its mostly been used in high performance boosted engines, notably in military aircraft during WW2. These people were not dreaming.
In mass-market cars it has a history of being a bit too much hassle for Joe Punter, who has trouble remembering that he should put air in his tyres.
It was used on an early US turbo (can't remember the name.Look it up) and has been used on production SAABs. I THINK there's been some talk of a revival by BMW.
Edit: That talk was probably about the system implemented on the BMW M4. Geek speak follows:-
https://interestingengineering.com/video/bmw-m4-gts-uses-a-very-rare-water-injection-system-to-make-50-horsepower
The main effect is an anti-detonant , but there are also charge-cooling and decoking benefits. There may also be a steam engine effect, getting some extra push from otherwise wasted exhaust heat. Not sure about that but it seems plausible.
I had a primitive water inspiration system (mostly for decoking) rigged on my car but I took it off for the last inspection (all mods illegal in Taiwan) and havn't put it back yet.
Edited by edlithgow on 11/12/2019 at 01:18
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Was I dreaming it or did a chap somewhere in the West Country invent or is trying to develop an alternative form of fuel for internal combustion? Seem to recall Hydrogen or Water being part of the process ( I know water is a goodly part hydrogen). I must say that I am surprise some bright spark of a Chemist has not developed some form of alternative to carbon based fuel. The untold riches await. Maybe the oil companies have them assinated!! Cue the conspiracy theory!!!! Cheers Concrete
I remember someone trying water injected into the manifold as a fine mist but it kept stalling over 1200rpm but not heard anymore, that was in the 80s
apart from steam engines it wont work unless they are dreaming:)
I think its been attempted a few times by different people
Er...Water injection is a very well established, documented technique, with a sound technical basis. Its mostly been used in high performance boosted engines, notably in military aircraft during WW2. These people were not dreaming.
In mass-market cars it has a history of being a bit too much hassle for Joe Punter, who has trouble remembering that he should put air in his tyres.
It was used on an early US turbo (can't remember the name.Look it up) and has been used on production SAABs. I THINK there's been some talk of a revival by BMW.
Edit: That talk was probably about the system implemented on the BMW M4. Geek speak follows:-
https://interestingengineering.com/video/bmw-m4-gts-uses-a-very-rare-water-injection-system-to-make-50-horsepower
The main effect is an anti-detonant , but there are also charge-cooling and decoking benefits. There may also be a steam engine effect, getting some extra push from otherwise wasted exhaust heat. Not sure about that but it seems plausible.
I had a primitive water inspiration system (mostly for decoking) rigged on my car but I took it off for the last inspection (all mods illegal in Taiwan) and havn't put it back yet.
if you read the post I was referring to, it was meant as alternative fuel, not assistive fuel or enhancing fuel, alternative being not petrol or diesel, many attempts have been made to make an engine run on water alone, ie, no fuel added, without success unless YOU know different lol ;-)
reminds me of the discussion about running an engine from just petrol vapour, rather than injection, many have tried that without being able to rev the engine fully, ie it will just tick over but will not rev, plenty of theory's about why but no one has actually done it yet. though I gather the idea is still being worked on...though could be wrong?
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if you read the post I was referring to, it was meant as alternative fuel, not assistive fuel or enhancing fuel, alternative being not petrol or diesel, many attempts have been made to make an engine run on water alone, ie, no fuel added, without success unless YOU know different lol ;-)
C'mon, ANYONE reading
"I remember someone trying water injected into the manifold as a fine mist but it kept stalling over 1200rpm but not heard anymore, that was in the 80s"
would know different.
IOW they would know that this could not possibly refer to water alone.
If you spray water alone into an engine it wont "keep stalling over 1200rpm", because it wont be doing ANY rpm.
It'll just be getting wet.
I believe cars might have been run on electrolysed water, but only while the battery lasted, which won't have been for long.
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if you read the post I was referring to, it was meant as alternative fuel, not assistive fuel or enhancing fuel, alternative being not petrol or diesel, many attempts have been made to make an engine run on water alone, ie, no fuel added, without success unless YOU know different lol ;-)
C'mon, ANYONE reading
"I remember someone trying water injected into the manifold as a fine mist but it kept stalling over 1200rpm but not heard anymore, that was in the 80s"
would know different.
IOW they would know that this could not possibly refer to water alone.
If you spray water alone into an engine it wont "keep stalling over 1200rpm", because it wont be doing ANY rpm.
It'll just be getting wet.
I believe cars might have been run on electrolysed water, but only while the battery lasted, which won't have been for long.
Yes, I know, Sorry I didn't explain myself so its my fault ok, we all make mistakes
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reminds me of the discussion about running an engine from just petrol vapour, rather than injection, many have tried that without being able to rev the engine fully, ie it will just tick over but will not rev, plenty of theory's about why but no one has actually done it yet. though I gather the idea is still being worked on...though could be wrong?
This might be an example of vapour running.
https://www.legendarycollectorcars.com/featured-vehicles/other-feature-cars/smokey-yunicks-hot-vapor-fiero-51-mpg-and-0-60-in-less-than-6-seconds-see-and-hear-it-run-in-our-exclusive-video/
The video isn't especially informative but the article its embedded in gives clues about how it might have worked.
Seems fairly plausible.
This Smokey Yunicks guy is apparently an American automotive legend, to the extent of having a CARS animation character based on him (havn't seen it, so can't confirm)
Edited by edlithgow on 12/12/2019 at 15:22
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reminds me of the discussion about running an engine from just petrol vapour, rather than injection, many have tried that without being able to rev the engine fully, ie it will just tick over but will not rev, plenty of theory's about why but no one has actually done it yet. though I gather the idea is still being worked on...though could be wrong?
This might be an example of vapour running.
https://www.legendarycollectorcars.com/featured-vehicles/other-feature-cars/smokey-yunicks-hot-vapor-fiero-51-mpg-and-0-60-in-less-than-6-seconds-see-and-hear-it-run-in-our-exclusive-video/
The video isn't especially informative but the article its embedded in gives clues about how it might have worked.
Seems fairly plausible.
This Smokey Yunicks guy is apparently an American automotive legend, to the extent of having a CARS animation character based on him (havn't seen it, so can't confirm)
I can understand why its not used, its too complicated and it doesn't look like it will work, distance between carb and valve inlet is too far and should be shorter and smoother the bends alone create too much turbulence to work properly and would hinder induction flow
thats just imo, not that it matters
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reminds me of the discussion about running an engine from just petrol vapour, rather than injection, many have tried that without being able to rev the engine fully, ie it will just tick over but will not rev, plenty of theory's about why but no one has actually done it yet. though I gather the idea is still being worked on...though could be wrong?
This might be an example of vapour running.
https://www.legendarycollectorcars.com/featured-vehicles/other-feature-cars/smokey-yunicks-hot-vapor-fiero-51-mpg-and-0-60-in-less-than-6-seconds-see-and-hear-it-run-in-our-exclusive-video/
The video isn't especially informative but the article its embedded in gives clues about how it might have worked.
Seems fairly plausible.
This Smokey Yunicks guy is apparently an American automotive legend, to the extent of having a CARS animation character based on him (havn't seen it, so can't confirm)
I can understand why its not used, its too complicated and it doesn't look like it will work, distance between carb and valve inlet is too far and should be shorter and smoother the bends alone create too much turbulence to work properly and would hinder induction flow
thats just imo, not that it matters
Dunno, but "too complicated" doesn't really work as a criticism of this when coming from 2020, when DPF's and other ludicrously innapropriate technologies roam the earth.
Since the basic idea is to improve mixing, maybe the turbulence is a net benefit.
Its claimed to have done well in independent testing, and I've seen discussion where plausible people have claimed some success with related gizmo's, particularly fine metal mesh in the intake path.
They sell various grades of fine metal filter cones for tea/coffee here quite cheaply which if I had time to kill I might try for that, but I'd need some way of evaluating the result.
Seem to have lost my Colortune :(
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reminds me of the discussion about running an engine from just petrol vapour, rather than injection, many have tried that without being able to rev the engine fully, ie it will just tick over but will not rev, plenty of theory's about why but no one has actually done it yet. though I gather the idea is still being worked on...though could be wrong?
This might be an example of vapour running.
https://www.legendarycollectorcars.com/featured-vehicles/other-feature-cars/smokey-yunicks-hot-vapor-fiero-51-mpg-and-0-60-in-less-than-6-seconds-see-and-hear-it-run-in-our-exclusive-video/
The video isn't especially informative but the article its embedded in gives clues about how it might have worked.
Seems fairly plausible.
This Smokey Yunicks guy is apparently an American automotive legend, to the extent of having a CARS animation character based on him (havn't seen it, so can't confirm)
I can understand why its not used, its too complicated and it doesn't look like it will work, distance between carb and valve inlet is too far and should be shorter and smoother the bends alone create too much turbulence to work properly and would hinder induction flow
thats just imo, not that it matters
Dunno, but "too complicated" doesn't really work as a criticism of this when coming from 2020, when DPF's and other ludicrously innapropriate technologies roam the earth.
Since the basic idea is to improve mixing, maybe the turbulence is a net benefit.
Its claimed to have done well in independent testing, and I've seen discussion where plausible people have claimed some success with related gizmo's, particularly fine metal mesh in the intake path.
They sell various grades of fine metal filter cones for tea/coffee here quite cheaply which if I had time to kill I might try for that, but I'd need some way of evaluating the result.
Seem to have lost my Colortune :(
It was a comment rather than a criticism as I dont know enough about it, if it works fair enough I cannot argue with that, it just wasn't what I expected, though I think its a bit late now with tech going electric
but there must have been a reason why the car companies wouldn't take it up, unless, as other attempts to do this worked out too difficult and bearing in mind the materials would make it more heavy than it needed to be ie a simple injection system is a lot less hassle than whats involved in that setup and works better
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