What does in charge mean? - KJP 123

Bromptonaut recently had a thread about being drunk (actually under the influence of drugs) whilst being in charge of a car. I fully accept that the person (not Bromptonaut) was not going to drive but that is not the offence. The matter was not pursued although he was in the front seat whereas many drivers have been done for taking a nap in the back seat in the pub car park.

I have always wondered what “in charge” actually means.

You are with your wife, you have drunk and she hasn’t and she will drive home but you go to car with the keys whilst she is still putting her coat on. On the way home she stops at an ATM and you wait in the car with keys in ignition.

What about motor or ordinary caravans? Pub landlord agrees you can park up overnight. Is it different on a campsite? Maybe if private land.

I have on occasions gone to my car parked on the street to get something. Hotel car parks may be counted as public highway too. I am even assuming that it has to be on the public highway and not your own drive.

What does in charge mean? - RobJP

There's actually no legal definition of 'in charge' of a vehicle. The courts are expected to use judgement as to whether you are in the vehicle, whether you are in possession of the keys or not, whether or not there appears to be any intent to take control of the vehicle.

So, in the examples you give, I'd say that :

You are with your wife, you have drunk and she hasn’t and she will drive home but you go to car with the keys whilst she is still putting her coat on. On the way home she stops at an ATM and you wait in the car with keys in ignition.

If you are in the passenger seat, then it is pretty clear that you are not 'intent on taking control of the vehicle"

What about motor or ordinary caravans? Pub landlord agrees you can park up overnight. Is it different on a campsite? Maybe if private land.

Depends on what you are doing. If you're in the drivers seat, with the engine running or even the ignition on, it certainly could be said to show 'intent'. If the public have access to the car park or caravan site, then the law applies. Private land is irrelevant.

I have on occasions gone to my car parked on the street to get something. Hotel car parks may be counted as public highway too. I am even assuming that it has to be on the public highway and not your own drive.

Again, if the public have access to an area, then the law applies. If you went to your car, got in, shut the door, and started the ignition, then you could well be judged to have 'intent' to take control of the vehicle. If, on the other hand, you opened the boot to get something out, then you are in no way attempting such 'control'.

As to your assertion that many drivers have been done for taking a nap in the back seat in the pub car park. that's a sweeping statement with very little to back it up.

The only case I can recall reading about involved one where the police were following a car that managed to 'lose' them. They then, a few minutes later, managed to find a virtually identical car in a pub car park, the person who was 'asleep' in the back claiming he'd been there for hours, in spite of the bonnet and tyres being warm. Unsurprisingly, he was convicted.

What does in charge mean? - Bromptonaut

Right now I'm on a public campsite in my caravan. It's unhitched from the car, propped on its corner steadies and connected to site's electricity. Since I'm a gin and tonic, half a bottle of wine and a beer or two mellow I sincerely hope I'm well distant from in charge of car parked adjacent.

But in motorcaravan?

I'll think about this some more in the morning :-)

What does in charge mean? - Bromptonaut

I have on occasions gone to my car parked on the street to get something. Hotel car parks may be counted as public highway too. I am even assuming that it has to be on the public highway and not your own drive.

The Lad's experience made me think about that scenario too. If we're having a family party at home I'm quite likely to park my car and/or Mrs B's on the access to our cul de sac leaving drive for vistors, including my (now deceased) Mother and others with limited mobility. If I subsequenly and well drunk go out to car to recover my coat and put ignition on 'cos I've noticed clock never got corrected for Summer Time am I in charge?

As noted in my original thread there are defences but, other than fact that there's a presumption you will drive there's not much explanation as to rationale.

Of course law could be reformed but the 'opportunity cost' of Brexit is that resource in both Westminster and Whitehall is consumed in EU exit and other stuff doesn't get a look in.

What does in charge mean? - KJP 123

Rob seems to have hit upon the essential part: “any intent to take control of the vehicle”. So it’s not really an offence of being in charge as much as an intention of driving under the influence at some point, maybe soon maybe later.

Each case turns on its facts and it is worth noting that it is up to the accused to prove that he had no intention to take control. At least it is on the balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

If the pub landlord would confirm that you asked to stay overnight in your caravan that would probably be enough.

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ok I looked into this some time ago so I could have a greater understanding for myself and my own education.

The law states that the laws apply to all public land, and to private land where the public would ordinarily have access, if in this case the business is closed then this rule still applies during closing hours.

Examples, supermarket car parks, retail car parks etc

For the same reason and to settle an argument, I asked the police on the non emergency number, if someone was blind drunk, at what point could you nick them for drink driving, I was told that they only have to put the key in the door, that is straight from the police themselves. I was told they would have 99% chance of getting the conviction.

Read from that what you will, I don't suppose that a motor home makes any diff if they see you getting in by the front doors and not the side door of a motor hone.

Someone on here posed the same question, but there car was on a beach, they got nicked because he could not explain how the vehicle came to be there without it having been driven there. Since he could not prove someone else had driven it, as the registered keeper and with him being there as well it was a slam dunk.

He also could not prove he only started drinking after the car broke down.

My advice, ask the kids to get stuff from car, or someone who is sober.

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ps. They will be unlikely to accept the landlords word on this matter.

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

Anyway for me like everyone else the car is a storage room sometimes, and we have all done it in the midst of a party, or where someone else is driving. But my friend the law is clear, unless its a life or death situation just stay away from the car while drinking, I actually never thought of it and several times have gone to a mates car to get something out, unfit to drive, and with not the least intention of doing so, sometimes in nothing more on my feet but socks.

So I reckon the other guy is right, its about the perception of intent to drive, and/or being responsible for the vehicle once the keys are in your hand, 2 diff things but very often the same result.

What does in charge mean? - RobJP

For the same reason and to settle an argument, I asked the police on the non emergency number, if someone was blind drunk, at what point could you nick them for drink driving, I was told that they only have to put the key in the door, that is straight from the police themselves. I was told they would have 99% chance of getting the conviction.

I don't normally bother to mention it, but my username, as well as including my initials, also signifies something that I used to do part-time, when I ran my own business.

From sitting on the bench, and hearing any number of cases - and speaking to the Clark of Court, and getting the reviews of lots of cases as well - I can say with some degree of confidence that, if the police / CPS brought a case of 'drunk in charge' on the basis that a person had put the key in the door of the car (or unlocked it with the remote fob), then the case would most likely be laughed out of court.

The police might like to think they'd have a 99% chance of a conviction in such a case, but the reality would be very different.

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

It shows intent mate esp if there is nothing but the steering wheel there, and using the fob is a diff matter from using the key. You dont use the fob to start the car,

Edited by 30 yr's a Professional Driver on 20/02/2018 at 17:28

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

Anyway I am oten frustrated by this page as no one follows up, so if you could please, would you be kind enough to tell us how it all ended.

What does in charge mean? - FP

How what ended?

Edited by FP on 20/02/2018 at 18:10

What does in charge mean? - Bromptonaut

Anyway I am oten frustrated by this page as no one follows up, so if you could please, would you be kind enough to tell us how it all ended.

How what all ended?

The first post poses a question but not connected to any event that will have an end.

What does in charge mean? - Engineer Andy

Anyway I am oten frustrated by this page as no one follows up, so if you could please, would you be kind enough to tell us how it all ended.

Yeah, I'm sure you think we're all 24/7 on this website, fingers poised over the keyboard, waiting for people to add comments so we can reply within 15 mins.

People do have lives to lead you know, and cannot just reply instantly, often a few days before logging on again, and often only having a few minutes, so may prioritise what they do on the Net. Its not as though this is a immediate 'life or death' thing, is it?

Please be patient. Perhaps add a nice post asking for something specific if nothing is posted on th thread after a few days.

What does in charge mean? - RobJP

It shows intent mate esp if there is nothing but the steering wheel there, and using the fob is a diff matter from using the key. You dont use the fob to start the car,

It shows intent - intent to open the car. That is a long way from intent to 'take control' and be 'drunk in charge' of a car.

Magistrates look at these cases occasionally, I dealt with a couple of them. What we would look at, as directed by the Clark of court, was whether there appeared to be intent to 'take control' of the vehicle.

Imagine, if you will, a scenario where someone who has the key fob in his pocket, for a car with 'keyless access' and 'remote start'. He's drunk, his partner is sober and going to be driving. They approach the car, the car unlocks as they touch the door handles. He is about to get into the passenger seat, however.

Going by your logic and what the police told you would happen '99% of the time', he is 'drunk in charge' at that point. He has the key on his possession, and has caused the car to become unlocked. The 'key in the door' scenario, but with modern technology.

I'm telling you, as clear as day, that the case would be laughed out of court.

What does in charge mean? - HGV ~ P Valentine

Fair point. Did you see the top gear one, the locks and unlocks automatucally within a certain distance of the car, hell if you like to double check by trying the doors

What does in charge mean? - RobJP

Fair point. Did you see the top gear one, the locks and unlocks automatucally within a certain distance of the car, hell if you like to double check by trying the doors

Remember - Top Gear is an entertainment programme. They will ham things up if they think they are amusing. However ...

Cars with keyless access (or whatever the individual manufacturer calls it) don't really work like that.

In both BMW/MINI and Jaguar/Land Rover, the keyless locking works like this :

You get out of the car, and close the door. You then touch your thumb/finger to a small square 'bump' on the door grab handle, and the doors lock - with a nice audible 'clunk' and the hazard lights flash.

When you want to umlock the car, you simply walk up to the car, and reach for the door handle. The car 'senses' that the key is there, and unlocks - again, with an audible 'clunk' and the hazards flash.

It's not rocket science.