Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

We've decided we need a 4WD car for wintry conditions and the odd muddy field. Intending to buy new. We also want economy as far as possible and small as far as possible narrow country lanes and a small piece if front drive are important constraints. Petrol, manual gearbox. Our difficulty is that most 4WD cars are quite big.

I've looked at a Jimny - fits all requirements except very dated and uncomfortable. Also a Panda 4x4 which seems to do rather better, and would be cheaper to run. Used to run a Yeti which would be fine for us except comparatively large, as is its successor. SWBO likes a high driving position which is a problem if looking for genuinely small cars. Tending towards the Panda as the best compromise.

Any bright ideas out there from the HJ think tank?

Thank you all......

Any... - Small 4WD - SteveLee

The Panda is a cracker - although it's expensive new but has excellent residuals as secondhand demand exceeds supply. The ride quality of the (slightly taller) Cross varient is particularly good for a small car.

Any... - Small 4WD - badbusdriver

The problem with the panda 4x4 is that you have a choice of either the 0.9 TwinAir, or the 1.2 turbo diesel, both of which are prone to reliability woes. If you intend to replace the car beforethe warranty is up, and assuming you had a friendly and helpful fiat dealer nearby, i might be tempted by the 0.9, but otherwise, i'd be more inclined to find a really nice previous generation with the simple old 1.2 (which you can get in the 2wd current panda, but not the 4x4).

If you plan to keep the car for a long time, then i would suggest looking into jimny forums or owners clubs to find out what can be done to improve the very bouncy ride. This is the main flaw with the car, and be in no doubt that it would prove considerably more reliable than a panda 4x4.

Another option could be the new suzuki ignis, which in mild hybrid form is, i believe, 4x4. I don't know if the system in this car would be useful for your requirements, but it would be worth investigating as it certainly has the ground clearance and higher driving position you need. It does also have a bouncy ride though, but is unlikely to be as bouncy as the jimny!.

The biggest current area of growth for new cars is in small SUV's, possibly the cheapest would be the kia stonic or hyundai kona, but both may well be bigger than you want, such is the way of new cars these days!.

The only other thing i could suggest is getting in touch with a reputable Japanese car import specialist to see what they could offer you as the Japanese traditionally have a huge selection of small 4x4 vehicles, or 4x4 versions of existing small hatchbacks. These would generally be very well equipped and very reliable (as are pretty much any Japanese made cars!)

Any... - Small 4WD - SLO76
Beaten to it I know but I’m a bit of a fan of these and it does seem to fit your requirements. Should be reliable, no diesel reliability worries and bags of character. Auto Trader:

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20171229232...0
Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

Many thanks for the Ignis ideas - I have had Suzukis in the past and liked them. We'll be going to have a look and see what we think.

Any... - Small 4WD - Engineer Andy

You are quite limited in what fits your bill if the size of car you're looking for is as small as a supermini or city car and petrol-engined. After that, the next batch of 4WD cars size-wise are (petrol-engined only):

Mazda CX-3 2.0 (N/A) Sport Nav 4WD 150

Audi Q2 2.0 TFSI Quattro 190 (its Q3 sister is available but that's even bigger)

Vauxhall Mokka X 1.4T 140 4x4

Jeep Renegade 1.4 Multiair 4WD

Peugeot 2008 1.2T with 'Grip Control' (HJ-valued reasonable alternative to 4x4 if combined with decent all-season tyres, though seems to be better on snowy roads etc rather than going through muddy fields).

To be honest, other than the Jeep, I doubt if any of the above are really suitable for actual off-roading, more like poor road conditions, as long as they are paired with some all season or winter tyres when required. Of course, the Jeep isn't exactly a great car, especially on-road and isn't renowned for the makes reliability either. I suspect none are really small enough anyway, and not cheap either, though perhaps going through a broker and at the right time of year (probably not now, but you never know) you might be able to pick up something within that group for £16-17k new (probably only the 2008), most of the rest nearer to low £20ks if you're very lucky.

I suspect the Panda will be more suited to your needs if size is a major factor, not sure about the Ignis, which, size-wise fits the bill, but, to me at least, doesn't look like it could handle off-roading very well. Small car 4x4s seem to be out of fashion these days - other than those mentioned (and the smallest 3dr Land Rover Defender), I can (thus far) only think of from the past 20 years was the Toyota RAV4 3dr, Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin, Subaru Justy (very old late 90s version) and Suzuki Grand Vitara 3dr & SX4, none of which set the world alight (putting it mildly) and are no longer produced.

What doesn't help many 'modern' 4x4s primarily designed for the road is, other than they mostly don't have the setup for actual (proper) off-roading, they come with low profile tyres as standard, and may not be able to accommodate higher profile tyres that work better in such conditions, because the manufacturers believe (often correctly) that the cars won't be used off road more than parking on a school field for a boot sale, and if people wanted a 'real' 4x4 they'd buy a specialist one, all of why are bigger.

(You must mean the Audi Q2 Andy - hope you don't mind my edit!)

Edited by Avant on 10/03/2018 at 23:30

Any... - Small 4WD - gordonbennet

That Ignis looks a cracking little car, plenty of ground clearance, decent approach/departure angles, little in the way of underbody parts sticking out to get caught, a wide track and good all round visibility to boot, i haven't seen an underbody pick but is that a live rear axle?, if so it has more off road credentials than some so called off roaders, i have no idea what traction or diff controls it has.

Nit picking here but the wheels could have been smaller with higher aspect tyres, but i bet thats a very competetent little motor for the muddy fields and winter traction the OP wants.

Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

Some of the out-of-production cars might well have done us proud, but they are all too long in the tooth now for us to consider second-hand purchase. We had a 5-door Grand Vitara and it was a bit of a tank, but the 3-door might have been good. I also worked out that a Defender 90 is about the same length as a Fiesta, despite its appearance, but realistically a Defender isn't a car with 4WD, it's a 4WD that has a body attached, and won't make for comfortable everyday motoring (and newish ones are fiendishly expensive).

Definitely going to look at Ignis, even though the only model with 4WD also comes with highest spec (which we don't necessarily need) and a hybrid system (which probably won't help much in our motoring).

Any... - Small 4WD - Avant

When you're looking at the Ignis, also check out the Vitara. I think you can have 4x4 on entry-level models, and the new model should be less tank-like than the old one.

Any... - Small 4WD - Metropolis.
Mitsubishi ASX?
Any... - Small 4WD - badbusdriver

Something else which i inadvertently just came upon (as i had no idea that they hung around that long) is the suzuki SX4. They were still on sale up to 2014 so not too old, and it was available with a 1.6 petrol and 4wd. Size wise it is slightly shorter and narrower than the current vitara.

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170620661...1

Any... - Small 4WD - TrevL

I have a SX4 petrol 2WD and it is the best put together and most reliable vehicle I have owned. I note lots of 4WD versions in use in my regular visits to the more inaccessible areas of North Yorkshire where the locals usually require a 4WD. The Fiat Sedici is (was) a Suzuki build vehicle too I believe.

Any... - Small 4WD - badbusdriver

I have a SX4 petrol 2WD and it is the best put together and most reliable vehicle I have owned. I note lots of 4WD versions in use in my regular visits to the more inaccessible areas of North Yorkshire where the locals usually require a 4WD. The Fiat Sedici is (was) a Suzuki build vehicle too I believe.

Yes it was, but for whatever reason they stopped selling it, certainly in the UK, something like 6 years before the suzuki finally bowed out in 2014. I still see quite a lot of both on the roads round here, the fiat probably because up till recently there was a Fiat dealer fairly local.

Any... - Small 4WD - SteveLee

SX4s are very reliable, they're narrow by modern car standards but nowhere near as narrow as a Panda. They're not particularly fantastic off road (even the 4 Grips) but should handle muddy lanes with the right tyres, they are great fun to drive - they feel like an 80's hot hatch, engines are boomy though. My missis has one (1.6SX) which I have fitted with Firestone multiseasons, didn’t manage to get stuck in the recent snow (despite trying).

Another alternative is the Daihatsu Terios (later the better) fantastically reliable - however they don't ride that well and Daihatsus have a well-earned reputation for tin worm, they do depreciate quite heavily so can be very good value. Not quite as good as a Panda off-road (not much is) but still pretty capable. The original tiny narrow Terios was mechanically sound but an absolute rust bucket, the Mk3 is just about to be replaced – but I don’t know if Toyota have decided to import the MK4 into the UK. I would own either at the right price – a reliable, basic, no frills car that’s cheap to run, I'd risk the (un)reliability of the Panda as I love 'em and they're much more fun to drive - but if that doesn't bother you then the Terios could tick all your boxes. It's a car you could tuck away for eight months (on a battery tender!) then expect it to start when winter comes - the same could be said for the SX4.

Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

A quick follow up. Many thanks to all who helped with ideas and advice.

We drove a Panda and an Ignis. Ignis feels a bit better quality; neither set the world alight with performance or handling, but we're not seeking either of those aspects. Research suggested the Ignis would be a bit more expensive after likely discounts. Overall we thought the Ignis was better, but we'd have been very happy with a Panda if the Ignis hadn't existed.

We abandoned the idea of a Jimny as being too agnricultural and not recently updated with the various toys; we also abandoned second-hand as the other available models would already have many miles and years on them. So we've gone for a new Ignis 4x4, perhaps mildly miffed that the only 4x4 version available is the top spec model, where we might have gone for a medium-spec.

Any... - Small 4WD - Manatee

mildly miffed that the only 4x4 version available is the top spec model, where we might have gone for a medium-spec.

Let's hope quality is remembered when price is forgotten :)

Any... - Small 4WD - SLO76
A little car with bags of character from a manufacturer with a great reputation for reliability. I believe and hope you’ll have many years of faithful and enjoyable motoring ahead. It’s the car I would’ve picked and it’ll still be running long after a twin air or diesel Panda has went for scrap. Not saying I dislike the wee Fiat but neither engine option on the 4wd is likely to last well while the old 1.2 petrol has been around in one form or another since the 80’s and is generally pretty sound but it’s sadly unavailable on the 4wd and a bit too weak for the extra weight.

Edited by SLO76 on 09/01/2018 at 19:58

Any... - Small 4WD - SteveLee

Indeed, you'd have to be very unlucky for a Suzuki to go wrong on you they're mechanically very sound. Just invest in high quality polish and give it a good wash and polish twice a year as Suzuki paintwork is not very good unless well looked after. A sound long-term purchase.

Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

A further update

We now have our new Ignis 4WD. Does exactly what we were looking for, though as yet we've managed to avoid the snowdrifts so haven't challenged its Allgrip 4WD system and associated gadgetry like hill descent control. Unlike the old days when you more or less expected a new car to have faults and need to be returned to the dealer, modern cars seem to fail much more rarely. In the brief time we've had it, the Suzuki has performed well.

Thanks again to all who offered advice

Any... - Small 4WD - Engineer Andy

Good to know - I saw one of these the other day and they are quite small - how are you finding them for load-carrying?

Any... - Small 4WD - badbusdriver

I have to say, i REALLY like the new ignis, so would be interested to hear how you get on over the course of time.

I'm sure, being a Suzuki, it will prove reliable, and hopefully will fit your needs perfectly.

Any... - Small 4WD - ExA35Owner

The load carrying question....

Seating for 4 only (5 for the bottom of the range only). Upright stance of the car gives OK headroom; legroom OK and rear seats adjust.

Plenty of pockets and cupholders and things like that.

However boot is quite small (rear seat adjustment helps a bit). Haven't needed to fold seats down, so haven't explored major load carrying. You'd certainly struggle to carry holiday luggage for 4 people! No significant storage under the boot floor because of the rear transmission; the 2WD might be better for this but we were looking for 4WD so didn't investigate.

Any... - Small 4WD - Avant

If ExA35Owner is true to his nom de clavier, he'll know how convenient a really small car can be. A35s were lively for their day (late 1950s) and far better to drive than the contemporary side-valve Ford. I suppose the spiritual successor now is the VW Up.

For anyone who finds the Ignis too small, Suzuki have the answer in the Vitara and the SX-4 (which seem to compete with each other).

Any... - Small 4WD - Engineer Andy

If ExA35Owner is true to his nom de clavier, he'll know how convenient a really small car can be. A35s were lively for their day (late 1950s) and far better to drive than the contemporary side-valve Ford. I suppose the spiritual successor now is the VW Up.

For anyone who finds the Ignis too small, Suzuki have the answer in the Vitara and the SX-4 (which seem to compete with each other).

A shame that Toyota don't do a sucessor to the 3dr (and not the now very big) Rav4 from the 1990 - mid 2000s - that might've been another option if it were the same size and config as it used to be. Not the best at off-roading I grant you, but not a bad car to drive (a colleague from many years ago owned one) generally.

I also liked the looks of the previous-gen 3dr Grand Vitara (with a full sized spare wheel/tyre on later models) - pity the new one isn't so good looking and only available in 3dr form. It wasn't so good on the old jungle juice and was rather slow though, but hey, you don't buy a proper 4x4 for performance unless you can afford a Range Rover.