speed awareness courses

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 17:15
speed awareness courses - barney100

One million people have been offered these courses this year. £12 million pounds has been taken into police funds and there is no data to indicate course effectiveness. Speed cameras are proliferating, the chief constable of Bedfordshire wants to turn on motorway cameras 24/7 solely to fund his dwindling police force. Draw your own conclusions.

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 17:22
speed awareness courses - oldroverboy.

One million people have been offered these courses this year. £12 million pounds has been taken into police funds and there is no data to indicate course effectiveness. Speed cameras are proliferating, the chief constable of Bedfordshire wants to turn on motorway cameras 24/7 solely to fund his dwindling police force. Draw your own conclusions.

Not correct!

The funds are going to companies set up by former and serving police officers in many cases!

I think the term is "money for old rope"

I did a course 5 years ago. 30 minutes useful and 3.5 hours of holier than thou utter d*****!

If there is ever a next time... it'll be cos they really are going for people at 71 mph....

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 18:02
speed awareness courses - scot22

I did my course just over a year ago. Perhaps it was the trainers but it was excellent. Much more value than 3 points and a fine only slightly less than course fee.

We were told the course had been changed in the light of experience. The trainers had a realistic attitude and much of the course served as a refresher of advanced driving.

If a similar course was offered for strategies to support an older driver I would happily pay to attend.. This would be purely voluntary.

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 18:28
speed awareness courses - John Boy

I did one 9 years ago and it seems to have worked! The trainers certainly weren't "holier than thou" - rather to my surprise.

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 18:45
speed awareness courses - FP

"One million people have been offered these courses this year. £12 million pounds has [sic] been taken..."

The maths seems odd. I signed up for one of these the other day and it cost me £91.

Were the courses ever £12 a shot?

Edited by FP on 27/11/2017 at 18:47

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 22:08
speed awareness courses - barney100

Figures from a freedom of information request, widely available on the normal search engines, the £12 million is what's left after costs.

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 22:03
speed awareness courses - alan1302

One million people have been offered these courses this year. £12 million pounds has been taken into police funds and there is no data to indicate course effectiveness. Speed cameras are proliferating, the chief constable of Bedfordshire wants to turn on motorway cameras 24/7 solely to fund his dwindling police force. Draw your own conclusions.

Not true there has been no research - just a quick Google shows some. See here:

ndors.org.uk/files/6614/4983/2018/Final_Speed_Awar...f

You can search the rest yourself! LOL Maybe it you that didn't so any research? :-)

Speed cameras in Barnsley are being turned off as they are too expensive to run so how does that tally with your thoughts? Also if you look into the Chief Constable of Bedfordshire you will notice he was threatning that as he was hoping to force the governement to give him more day to day money to spend on crime.

So my own conclusions are I don't agree with anything you have written and seems badly resarched.

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Mon 27 Nov 2017 22:13
speed awareness courses - barney100

Research it yourself and you are perfectly entitled to your conclusions but I only quoted what I had read. Lucky Barnsley drivers.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 13:11
speed awareness courses - alan1302

Research it yourself and you are perfectly entitled to your conclusions but I only quoted what I had read. Lucky Barnsley drivers.

I don't need to research anything - you stated there was no evidence done to show their effectiveness and I linked research for you.

Now I know you don't want to read it and take it in as it won't agree with your own views but you can't say there is no research done when it has been done.

You say a freedom of information request has been done - when/who by/any links to this piece of information?

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 14:32
speed awareness courses - barney100

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 15:56
speed awareness courses - Andrew-T

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

What evidence would you consider to be acceptable and convincing?

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 16:28
speed awareness courses - RobJP

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

Absolute nonsense. Another person has posted up a link to research which does show that the courses are effective.

Just because you want to believe they are a waste of time and money, does not mean that you are correct.

And doing the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting 'LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU' like a 3 year old does certainly not help your argument.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 17:12
speed awareness courses - RT

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

Absolute nonsense. Another person has posted up a link to research which does show that the courses are effective.

Just because you want to believe they are a waste of time and money, does not mean that you are correct.

And doing the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting 'LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU' like a 3 year old does certainly not help your argument.

if research has been done, the DVLA or the police must be keeping records on those attending SACs.

On all (don't ask!) the SACs I've been on, I've been surprised at the lack of knowledge from other attendees on speed limits and Highway Code in general (just re-emphasised my own stupidity for being caught) but the instructors perpetuated a few urban myths.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 17:43
speed awareness courses - oldroverboy.

but the instructors perpetuated a few urban myths.

Such as?

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 18:04
speed awareness courses - RT

It's been a long time now but one I recall was - trailers banned from the third lane of a dual carriageway (the ban only actually applies on motorways)

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 18:18
speed awareness courses - RobJP

It's been a long time now but one I recall was - trailers banned from the third lane of a dual carriageway (the ban only actually applies on motorways)

A motorway is classed as a dual carriageway AND a motorway. And the ban applies to the third lane of a dual carriageway, so it applies to the third lane of a motorway.

www.gov.uk/guidance/tow-a-trailer-with-a-car-safet...s

(towards the bottom, the 'When you're driving' section)

The third lane (or whatever is the rightmost lane, where there are three or more lanes) is prohibited to trailers, HGVs, etc. That applies to motorways and other multi-lane roads that are classed as 'dual carriageways', i.e. are separated by a central reservation.

Edited by RobJP on 28/11/2017 at 18:20

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 18:56
speed awareness courses - RT

Dual carriageway isn't a definition of a motorway - there are some (very) short streches of motorway which are single carriageway

The trailer ban is a specific regulation for motorways which are"special roads" - the DVLA guidance is wrong, often is when it comes to trailers"

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 19:58
speed awareness courses - Bromptonaut

A motorway is classed as a dual carriageway AND a motorway. And the ban applies to the third lane of a dual carriageway, so it applies to the third lane of a motorway.

www.gov.uk/guidance/tow-a-trailer-with-a-car-safet...s

(towards the bottom, the 'When you're driving' section)

The third lane (or whatever is the rightmost lane, where there are three or more lanes) is prohibited to trailers, HGVs, etc. That applies to motorways and other multi-lane roads that are classed as 'dual carriageways', i.e. are separated by a central reservation.

It refers specifically to Motorways:

Motorways

You must not drive in the right-hand lane of a motorway with 3 or more lanes.

If it applied to ordinary dual carriageways there'd be all sorts of problems with destination specific lanes.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 28/11/2017 at 20:00

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:12
speed awareness courses - RT

A motorway is classed as a dual carriageway AND a motorway. And the ban applies to the third lane of a dual carriageway, so it applies to the third lane of a motorway.

www.gov.uk/guidance/tow-a-trailer-with-a-car-safet...s

(towards the bottom, the 'When you're driving' section)

The third lane (or whatever is the rightmost lane, where there are three or more lanes) is prohibited to trailers, HGVs, etc. That applies to motorways and other multi-lane roads that are classed as 'dual carriageways', i.e. are separated by a central reservation.

It refers specifically to Motorways:

Motorways

You must not drive in the right-hand lane of a motorway with 3 or more lanes.

If it applied to ordinary dual carriageways there'd be all sorts of problems with destination specific lanes.

Many motorways have "destination specific" lanes but thet don't count in the assessment of 3 or more lanes - if there's a left hand lane drop for the next junction with only two lanes going through the junction, once the lane markers change, the outside lane ban ends

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 08:28
speed awareness courses - Bromptonaut

Many motorways have "destination specific" lanes but thet don't count in the assessment of 3 or more lanes - if there's a left hand lane drop for the next junction with only two lanes going through the junction, once the lane markers change, the outside lane ban ends

I get that. HGV's can use lane 3 on the newly re-aligned Cathorpe junction (M6/M1/A14) to take the A14.

But there's still no lane 3 trailer ban on (say) the first few miles of the A50 west of M1/J24.

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 08:34
speed awareness courses - RT

Many motorways have "destination specific" lanes but thet don't count in the assessment of 3 or more lanes - if there's a left hand lane drop for the next junction with only two lanes going through the junction, once the lane markers change, the outside lane ban ends

I get that. HGV's can use lane 3 on the newly re-aligned Cathorpe junction (M6/M1/A14) to take the A14.

But there's still no lane 3 trailer ban on (say) the first few miles of the A50 west of M1/J24.

Correct - it doesn't apply on non-motorways.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 22:59
speed awareness courses - Middleman

but the instructors perpetuated a few urban myths.

Such as?

One of the most common (which you can encounter on most motoring advice forums) is many drivers believe a dual carriageway is automatically subject to a minimum 40mph limit if no signs are visible. Of course (as any fool knows) if they are a "restricted road" (i.e. one witha system of street lighting) they are subject to a 30mph limit unless signed to the contrary. Perhaps not an "urban myth" but simply a lack of knowledge which should have been acquireed in order to take a driving test.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 19:53
speed awareness courses - alan1302

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

But there is evidence - I posted a link to it - you can't go round saying there is no evidence when it's been given to you on a plate unless ou just don't want to belive it...which is what I think is the case...you may not have specifically stated your view but from your original post I think we can draw our own conclusions and you have been shown to be wrong and instead of just admitting it you are trying to (badly) backtrack.

Edited by alan1302 on 28/11/2017 at 19:56

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:52
speed awareness courses - Hugh Watt

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

But there is evidence - I posted a link to it - .

You keep saying this, Alan, but the link is to an "evaluation report". It contains no research into the effectiveness of courses; the only "evidence" adduced is from some participants' self-evaluation questionnaires - nuff said. The only relevant data that might be available would perhaps be figures for repeat offending, or, more broadly, a reduction in speeding offences overall - does anybody see that happening?

Edited by Slow Eddie on 28/11/2017 at 20:53

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 21:49
speed awareness courses - alan1302

There is no eveidence to show the effectiveness of the courses, and I have not stated a view.

But there is evidence - I posted a link to it - .

You keep saying this, Alan, but the link is to an "evaluation report". It contains no research into the effectiveness of courses; the only "evidence" adduced is from some participants' self-evaluation questionnaires - nuff said. The only relevant data that might be available would perhaps be figures for repeat offending, or, more broadly, a reduction in speeding offences overall - does anybody see that happening?

Orginal op said there was no evidence at all - I posted one piece and I'm sure there are other reports and no doubt other countries have their own similar courses so you could look up that info - I'm not making out there is lots of info aout there just pointing out that there is some despite what the original op said.

For your speeding offenses to see if they are up and down you could start here:

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-speed-com...6

And then work back each yeat to see if the increase/decrease

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:11
speed awareness courses - Metropolis.

We should'nt have speed limits on major motorways, Germany does without, why cant we?

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:25
speed awareness courses - alan1302

They are not designed for unlimited speeds and would need a lot of money and time to get them up to scratch and can think of a lot better things for the government to spend the money on.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:32
speed awareness courses - Theophilus

No thank you ... apart from every other safety consideration our motorways are much more congested (German motorways are speed restricted in areas where they carry a high density of traffic).

Back in 1970 / 71 a friend and I were hitch-hiking across Germany ... we had tickets for a Wagner opera at Bayreuth starting at 4pm, and at 3pm were still stranded by the road side in Munich almost 150 miles away. A very flash BMW pulled up & asked where we were heading, we explained that we had tickets for an opera, but had now missed it - the driver said that he would get us there for the curtain coming up - we averaged 180 mph (not kph!) and arrived before 4pm! Not an experience I would choose to repeat today. We discovered later that the driver was the CEO of a very major German company, and no doubt the car was a one-off.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 20:53
speed awareness courses - RT

We should'nt have speed limits on major motorways, Germany does without, why cant we?

I'm told, so secondhand information, that drivers in Germany are far more disciplined than those in the UK - sadly road safety has to be designed for the poorest drivers.

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Tue 28 Nov 2017 23:03
speed awareness courses - Middleman

“…but the instructors perpetuated a few urban myths.”

“Such as?”

One of the most common (which you can encounter on most motoring advice forums) is many drivers believe a dual carriageway is automatically subject to a minimum 40mph limit if no signs are visible. Of course (as any fool knows) if they are a "restricted road" (i.e. one with a system of street lighting) they are subject to a 30mph limit unless signed to the contrary. Perhaps not an "urban myth" but simply a lack of knowledge which should have been acquired in order to take a driving test.

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 08:04
speed awareness courses - RT

“…but the instructors perpetuated a few urban myths.”

“Such as?”

One of the most common (which you can encounter on most motoring advice forums) is many drivers believe a dual carriageway is automatically subject to a minimum 40mph limit if no signs are visible. Of course (as any fool knows) if they are a "restricted road" (i.e. one with a system of street lighting) they are subject to a 30mph limit unless signed to the contrary. Perhaps not an "urban myth" but simply a lack of knowledge which should have been acquired in order to take a driving test.

Most attendees on my SACs thought that national speed limit (NSL) for cars was 60 on dual carriageway and 70 on motorways - the instructors put that right!

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 09:22
speed awareness courses - catsdad
re the 60mph myth on a dual carriageway.

A couple of years ago I was on a dual carraigeway doing an indicated 70 when I came upon a bunch of cars dutifully sittng in line behind a marked police car doing about 60. Noone would over take so I slowed down to check the police werent purposely slowing the traffic for some safety reason.

They werent and I eased past about 65 mph on my way back to 70. The people in one of the cars I passed almost suffered arm dislocation in waving at me to warn me of the police car and my breaking of their perceived limit.

I think I read somewhere that police in some areas are instructed to make faster progress (within the limits) to avoid traffic bunching by over cautious following drivers. But maybe thats another myth!
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Wed 29 Nov 2017 11:18
speed awareness courses - RT
re the 60mph myth on a dual carriageway. A couple of years ago I was on a dual carraigeway doing an indicated 70 when I came upon a bunch of cars dutifully sittng in line behind a marked police car doing about 60. Noone would over take so I slowed down to check the police werent purposely slowing the traffic for some safety reason. They werent and I eased past about 65 mph on my way back to 70. The people in one of the cars I passed almost suffered arm dislocation in waving at me to warn me of the police car and my breaking of their perceived limit. I think I read somewhere that police in some areas are instructed to make faster progress (within the limits) to avoid traffic bunching by over cautious following drivers. But maybe thats another myth!

Don't know if it still is, but some police foces instructed their traffic cars NOT to cruise at the legal limit - it causes huge bunching but even going slower seems to have the same effect - of course, on "blues & twos" they go much faster.

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 14:44
speed awareness courses - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}

I found the course interesting and informative.

My only annoyance was that I suggested 30 mph repeater signs. Not allowed. Flatly.

Well there are many roads in semi suburbia without housing and streetlamps where a 30mph is applicable. Confusing especially if one has come from a 40 or 50 zone and the 30 sign has been hidden.

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 16:30
speed awareness courses - leef

I've done 3 in a period of 10 years. always seem to get caught going a few miles over the limit just after my other expires. (100% My own fault before any of Whiter than whites start up).

As for the course... the 1st one i attended was like 2 x drill sergants doing the course! straight faces for 4 hours with a 15 min break, I found it half and half in terms of being useful.

2nd one I attended. 2013 pretty much the same, but the instructors a bit more relaxed, threw a bit of humour in, but pretty much the same course. 4 hours 15 min break

3rd I attended, march 2017. Two scousers doing the course, much more relaxed, delivered fantistacally, different to the last two in lots of ways, humour where they could, obviously some parts really serious (deaths on the road etc), time flew past. Explained there past and how they became instructors. Long discussion on if you must inform you insurance company that you've attended the course, then a further debate on, they think being educated and completeing the course should result in a lower insurance premium...

Also there not allowed to do the courses if they have points on there licence.

I'll update you on the 4th one in 2020 :)

Lee

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 16:30
speed awareness courses - RT

I found the course interesting and informative.

My only annoyance was that I suggested 30 mph repeater signs. Not allowed. Flatly.

Well there are many roads in semi suburbia without housing and streetlamps where a 30mph is applicable. Confusing especially if one has come from a 40 or 50 zone and the 30 sign has been hidden.

It is a stupid part of UK law that 30 repeaters can't be used where the street lighting defines the speed limit rather than a specific legal order - all the other speeds are allowed repeaters.

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Wed 29 Nov 2017 22:11
speed awareness courses - John Boy

My eldest daughter, who's in her 2nd year of driving, did one this week. She described it as useful and said she came away from it more aware of the 2 second rule.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:39
speed awareness courses - Bilboman

I have a couple of queries about these courses and would be interested to hear from participants.

1. Does attendance on a course actually change drivers' behaviour - or is there an existing predisposition not to get caught again? (Not getting caught again is obviously not the same concept as "not being naughty again".) As an analogy I have known a few IAM members over the years and my impression is that these drivers were always going to be careful drivers anyway - if they lived (as I do) in a country where there are no IAM equivalent courses, they would undoubtedly be conscientious and improve their driving by self-study or whatever other means are available.

2. What is the bottom line (financially) of attendance on a SAC? I have heard that the cost is equivalent to a fine, maybe a bit more or a bit less. But in some cases insurance companies demand to know every single detail in their endless small print and subsequently crank up premiums for years to come, in the exercise of their God-given right to gouge the consumer in one of the most lucrative captive markets on planet Earth. Then again, some insurance companies actually lower premiums. And some don't even ask about SAC attendance.

3. Is it possible to attend a course voluntarily? I'm guessing that if this were the case, the scheme would become a victim of its own success and the "kind" insurance companies which offer discounts would have to reconsider their policy.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:54
speed awareness courses - scot22

1) I am IAM. It was valuable as a reminder and I feel I am that bit more careful re speed limits. The course certainly highlighted the difference a few extra mph can make.

2) Marginal financial difference BUT avoided 3 points on licence.

3) To the best of my knowledge No. I have suggested to Road Safety Partnership doing this and adding other, in my opinion, useful courses such as adapting driving to physical condition ( please note NOT supporting people who simply should not be driving )

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 13:04
speed awareness courses - RobJP

3. Is it possible to attend a course voluntarily? I'm guessing that if this were the case, the scheme would become a victim of its own success and the "kind" insurance companies which offer discounts would have to reconsider their policy.

Never been on a SAC, but you can do an 'Assessment drive' with IAM.

That's how I actually joined the IAM about 20 years ago - I'd started doing a considerable amount of driving for work, and wanted to get an independent view of my driving - both good and bad points, and where I could improve.

Found out about the IAM, got in touch with my local branch, and the rest is history

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