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Thanks, Avant! What you say makes perfect sense.
In general though I prefer to deal with private individuals rather than dealers.
I generally find dealer sales person pushy and patronising.
I've also had 2 bad experiences, both with Toyota delaers, back in 2010.
1) I had finalised the prurchase of a 5 year old Toyota Avensis diesel, from a main dealer, that had run 60,000 miles. Before the purchase, based on my friends advice I had asked regarding timing belt change. The sales person confirmed that it was due to be changed at 80,000 miles. Later I came to know from the internet, that it was due at 60,000 miles and was not done for the car. So I backed out from the sale.
2) Another Toyota Avensis, petrol this time. I put down the holding deposit for the car and went and saw it at the franchised dealer, a 100 miles away.
After a test drive is when I noticed deep scratches on the car on one side. The sales man pretended he was seeing them for thefirst time and promised to get it rectified immideatley. He then sent the car to some body shop. When it came back, I noticed that though the side had been repainted, the color was a slide shade different. Also I was not sure whether any rust treatment had been done or primer applied, in the 20 minutes that the body shop had the car. So I wanted to back out of the sale.
However I had to get trading standards involved, before I got the deposit back on the car.
So based on these experiences, I don't have great faith in even franchised dealers. All seem to be out to make a quick buck, by hook or crook.
Hence I prefer to deal with private sellers, where you also get a chance to see what sort of person owned the car previously.
However in this instance, there aren't many private sellers about in my budget.
Hence a dealer purchase seems to be the way to go.
Having said that, my current car which is a Ford Focus that I puchased privately. The seller was selling it on behalf of his deceased father. Lived in a nice house, in a nice part of town. However I later came to know that one of the service satmps (last one before sale), was probably faked. Hence not a great deal to be said about private sellers either.
Or it may just be me, attracting the bad luck / crooked types! :-(
However the focus has been faultless over the last 7 years, touch wood!
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I get the appeal of buying privately, I do it often. You get to meet the last owner face to face and a look at their home tells you much about how the car was maintained. But you really do need to know your stuff. Sales staff at most dealers don't know one end of a car from the other and will tell you anything to get a deal on general. There are exceptions (I hope I was one of them) but few people of any worth hang around in car sales for long with the highly unsociable hours and the pressure of targets
Don't tar them all with the same brush though there are good guys and gals out there but do your homework and take someone with a bit of know with you. Main dealers are the best bet as cars of this age will have came back in as part ex against another car rather than auction bought which tells you plenty about how happy the last owner was.
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Eustace, I feel your pain.
We are car hunting at the moment for my son and Civic is one of our target cars. Whatever the trade are buying them at (£5k?) their asking prices for a good 12 reg 1.8 are generally around £8k and they dont hang around at that price. Much as I like them its a lot for a car that will soon be six years old and was less than £20k new.
The problem seems to be that there is a serious lack of midrange petrol cars from the makes we backroomers tend to look for. There are a lot of small unproven turbos, automated manuals and diesels but robust petrols are much rarer.
While I bow to SLO on his knowledge of the trade buying side, its tough as a private Civic buyer at moment.
Edited by catsdad on 06/11/2017 at 18:11
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Eustace, i know that it is very much down to personal opinion, but that civic off autotrader looks very much like it is dark non metallic blue and, frankly, imo, is hideous!. If you like the colour and plan to keep the car for a long time, fine. Otherwise, i'd hold out for something in a nicer colour. I don't know where you are relative to the dealer selling that civic, but using their poscode as a base, and putting a maximum distance of 100 miles i found a few others;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170307302...1
also;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170829877...1
and;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170202190...1
finally(!);
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170926969...1
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I bought mine, a 12 reg 1,8 with only a few thousand miles on it, but from a relative, so only paid £5K. According to all the info I could find, I was prepared to pay about £6 to 6.5K and yes, dealers would ask 7.5K, this was a few months ago. But mine would have needed a full valet and some paint, as it has a few scuffs and dings on it, that don't bother me personally, but if it had been a dealer purchase, it would have. Also it has a non Honda full service history, with oil changes annually from a decent independent, again, because I knew the history, I am ok with that. Basically, unless you know the history, a private sale has to be MUCH cheaper to make it worthwhile, and as SLO says, with this car, it's way over-priced and without knowing the car or owner at all, a bit of a gamble.
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Thank you one and all, for your kind advice. Really gratifying to see so many knowledgeable folks, chip in with well meaning advice.
However the prices of the Civic at main dealers seem to be falling a bit. The price falls are trickling down. It's generally one dealer at a time, reducing the price for one of their cars.
I read an article sometime ago that November was the best time to buy used cars from a dealer, as this is the time when car prices are seasonally at their lowest.
Also I understand that there is a massive inventory build up of new and used cars at dealers, and based on that, prices are expected to fall further. If you observe a lot of the Civics advertised, you will see that a lot of them have been on the market for several months.
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On a different note, friends of mine who are relocating out of the U.K. are selling their 2 cars.
One is a 2008 plate Honda Civic hybrid, with around 76,000 miles on it. (Reg Number RV58 VOU).
The other is a 2002 plate Honda Jazz with 93000 miles on it (PO52 PKZ).They said that they are not expecting much for the Jazz and will probably be giving it away almost for free. They have owned the Jazz from 2006, and apart from the battery going dead once, they never have had any problems with it.
I initially considered buying the Civic off them. But the trade price is around £3700 and hence I will need to offer over £4000.
The hybrid is no longer being manufactured by Honda. Also the Civic hybrid was imported to UK from Japan. So potential parts availability issues and all that.
At that price and for that age / mileage, I personally think the Gen 2 Avensis is a better buy. However again used prices for a 9 year old Avensis is also steep (£2500 - £3500) and at that price, makes the 2012 Civic prices seem reasonable.
That brings me on to the Jazz. I had initially ruled it out for the following reasons.
1) It is too old (almost 16 years old).
2) No modern safety features such as side airbags, curtain air bags, ESP, etc.
3) I really can't do classical bangernomics. I can't maintain a car to a price. Any car I own will be treated properly. It will be properly serviced, have the best tyres and any faults will be taken care of. So putting money on this scale onto a 16 year old car, may be a waste.
4) If we start using the car and it proves trouble free and sufficient to requirements, then we may never get around to changing it.
5) I am 40 years old now, and would like to treat myself to a nice car. :-)
However on the other hand;
1) All we need a second car for is the morning school run, if I need to use the Focus for commuting, rather than using my push bike (9.5 mile bike ride + train journey). Total one way journey time of 1 hour 20 min plus on bike / train, compared to 45 minutes by driving.
2) SWMBO would like a small car. I had initially shot the idea down, as I was not comfortable with the family travelling in a super mini size car. I wanted a bit more metal around them.
3) SWMBO is planning to start working again over the next 2 years. She has been on a 12 year career break (from a decently paid IT programming job), so as to bring up the kids. Now that both kids are in full time school, she is planning to retrain as a secondary school teacher and then start working part-time (hopefully).
4) If I spend £8000 on a car now, I will practically wipe out all my savings, including most of our ISA investments. I am also paying off a mortgage, and most of our surplous savings were being used to prepay the mortgage.
5) The cars I would prefer to own over the Civic hatchback ( Civic estate or post 2014 Avensis, maybe) are currently outside our budget. If I wait a year or two, I will have more savings, these cars would have depreciated further, and my wife would perhaps be earning some sort of an income as well.
Rethinking the above, the case for taking the Jazz as an interim car, seems to be getting more appealing.
Any thoughts / advice regarding this?
Edited by eustace on 07/11/2017 at 00:00
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I'd Hoover the Jazz off them. They're reliable, cheap to run little cars but watch for noisy thrust bearings, you'll notice it when using the clutch, it's a common failure around 100k but some can last beyond 150k. Not catastrophicly expensive to do and it's probably the only real worry on these.
Since they're realistic about its value and need to get shot of it rather than part exchanging then offer then a quick £500 and see what they say. It's a no lose situation for you as it'll be worth more as a part ex on a newer Civic or as a private sale if you're prepared to wait for the right buyer so you won't lose on it.
The Civic Hybrid wasn't a good car however. Dynamically it wasn't anywhere near the standard of the UK built Civic and the battery pack will have seriously degraded now. The book price is as usual miles off as dealers are wary of older hybrids due to the massive cost of replacement power packs and value them accordingly. Up here at auction it would make between £2-£2.5k, I'd be surprised if there was much difference down south.
The Jazz is a perfect bangernomics motor for people with little motoring know how. It's simple enough for any garage to maintain yet robust enough to rarely be a problem. Some parts can be expensive but general service items are no dearer than rivals so they're very cheap to run. 50mpg is no problem and insurance is buttons.
Edited by SLO76 on 07/11/2017 at 08:55
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I'd Hoover the Jazz off them. They're reliable, cheap to run little cars but watch for noisy thrust bearings, you'll notice it when using the clutch, it's a common failure around 100k but some can last beyond 150k. Not catastrophicly expensive to do and it's probably the only real worry on these. Since they're realistic about its value and need to get shot of it rather than part exchanging then offer then a quick £500 and see what they say. It's a no lose situation for you as it'll be worth more as a part ex on a newer Civic or as a private sale if you're prepared to wait for the right buyer so you won't lose on it. The Civic Hybrid wasn't a good car however. Dynamically it wasn't anywhere near the standard of the UK built Civic and the battery pack will have seriously degraded now. The book price is as usual miles off as dealers are wary of older hybrids due to the massive cost of replacement power packs and value them accordingly. Up here at auction it would make between £2-£2.5k, I'd be surprised if there was much difference down south. The Jazz is a perfect bangernomics motor for people with little motoring know how. It's simple enough for any garage to maintain yet robust enough to rarely be a problem. Some parts can be expensive but general service items are no dearer than rivals so they're very cheap to run. 50mpg is no problem and insurance is buttons.
Thanks, SLO76! I think I'll be taking your advice on this.
Interestingly though, the WBAC price for the Civic Hybrid is £3700, while for the Jazz, it's only £150, minus the £50 admin fee.
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"Interestingly though, the WBAC price for the Civic Hybrid is £3700"
I've just put the details for this car in on wbac's site and they've quoted £1,895 and that's before final appraisal. Auto Trader:
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170817842...9
Either you've put the wrong details in or the seller has given you this figure...
"while for the Jazz, it's only £150, minus the £50 admin fee."
It's too old to retail and thus worthless to the likes of wbac.
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SLO76, I wouldlike to sincerely thank you for all the help and advice that you have given me and many others on this forum, in making buying decisions regarding cars.
Not only do you have extensive knowledge about cars, but you share your knowledge unstintingly.
I am sure I must have tried your patience with my many questions and far flung ideas.
But thank you for taking the time and effort in consistently addressing all my queries, and helping me with these difficult decisions.
It's people like you and several others on this forum, that restore one's faith in humanity!
On another note, have you ever considered starting a car buying service? I understand that they are popular in the U.S. and slowly gaining traction here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/car-buying-agent-services/
If you ever decide to start one, I would be most happy to buy my future cars through you. :-)
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"On another note, have you ever considered starting a car buying service? I understand that they are popular in the U.S. and slowly gaining traction here."
Happy to help.
I've been doing this for years as a sideline to my main business/job on a word of mouth basis. I advise on then find then inspect potential purchases for people then negotiate a deal on their behalf. If they've a suitable trade in I then buy it for either what they were offered by the dealer or more which allows me to negotiate a discount for no part ex. I usually earn solely from the part ex car I buy in then flog but if they haven't one I take a small fee based on how far I have to travel. I'm insured, carry trade plates and have yet to be caught out buying a bad motor for someone.
It was a strange fit for my last business which was a high street newsagents/convenience store but I found loads of punters asking my advice when they found I'd been a salesman for years before this so I soon found I was buying cars on a weekly basis and had both my own and parents drives full of old metal constantly, much to their great joy. I also bought from two local dealers who were happy to save on auction fees and transport costs. It was a nice sideline I made a good additional living from and got a buzz from.
However I decided a few years back to slow life down a bit, flogged the shop and slashed the motor trading to a trickle, largely dealing with old punters along with friends and family. Both dealers I dealt with closed their doors and auction stock up here is just trash so it's a very occasional thing now, just enough to keep my hand in.
Today I make expensive O gauge model trains for a small UK firm and take life at a much more sedate pace. I'm always happy to help folks get into a good car though, I still get a buzz from seeing cars I flogged on the road years later.
Edited by SLO76 on 08/11/2017 at 07:35
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q
Edited by eustace on 07/11/2017 at 00:24
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Eustace, i know that it is very much down to personal opinion, but that civic off autotrader looks very much like it is dark non metallic blue and, frankly, imo, is hideous!. If you like the colour and plan to keep the car for a long time, fine. Otherwise, i'd hold out for something in a nicer colour. I don't know where you are relative to the dealer selling that civic, but using their poscode as a base, and putting a maximum distance of 100 miles i found a few others;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170307302...1
also;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170829877...1
and;
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170202190...1
finally(!);
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170926969...1
Thanks badbusdriver.
But I'm not particulalrly hot on aesthetics. The color of my car, is generally an after thought, if it has all the features I want.
My wife will probably have different views, but she leaves the car buying decisions to me.
But I am perhaps aesthetically challenged, in the conventional sense. :-)
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