All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Cluedo
I saw a Range Rover Velar in the car park today and it struck me what a good looking car this was and that I would never own one simply because I value reliability high on my requirements when buying a car. Then I thought why do some companies, namely Land Rover, struggle to make cars reliable in this day and age. You only have to look at the Good and Bad in the HJ reviews to see so many call backs and problems. I understand nothing is perfect and Toyota even had a blip not too long ago but with LR it just seems to be very car they make and they never seem to learn - thoughts please guys.
All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - gordonbennet

They sell like hot cakes due to perceived image.

I also wonder if that image thing is a double edged sword, are a large number of customers the type who are likely to have troublesome vehicles whatever the make, no checkee oil for example, no maniacal sympathy eg full power thrashing from a cold start then switch off whilst the turbos are still glowing and then to compound such abuse to have bare minimal servicing despite using the vehicle harshly.

I suspect if a backroomer bought a Velar, and looked after it as well as the typical Landcruiser owner looks after their vehicle (helped it must be said by 9/10k or annual proper servicing, none of this extended servicing cobblers) then the Velar would be every bit as reliable as the Japanese product.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - argybargy

Like mobile phone makers, the huge competition in the car industry tempts some manufacturers into pushing the technology too far in order to try to get ahead of rivals.

Obviously this leads to bad publicity, recalls, re-engineering and a general premium in terms of reliability and thus, consumer confidence.

And then yes, there's the part we play when we don't look after our cars properly, and thrash them when they should be nurtured.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

Like mobile phone makers, the huge competition in the car industry tempts some manufacturers into pushing the technology too far in order to try to get ahead of rivals.

Pushing tech is what everyone does now,but it shouldnt be unreliable, the general idea is for more reliability, problem seems to be testing is short lived so no one really knows how reliable something will be.

certain companies do test parts for a long time and sort out the problems during testing,which is how it should be done

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - badbusdriver

I think for most people, the priority with getting a new car is image 1st 2nd and 3rd. Very little else is considered.

I wouldn't say that they don't care about reliability, it's more that they just assume the car will be.

Same goes for safety, I doubt many people look at the euro ncap website before deciding which car to buy.

Years ago, my friend and his wife bought a Fiat bravo. It was a top of the range turbo petrol with all the gadgets. It didn't even cross their minds to consider reliability. Needless to say, it spent a lot of time in the garage!. I visited the other night and found out that they have just taken delivery of a new dacia duster, trading in a sandero stepway. Talking to them, it was clear that the wife had to have an SUV (between the lines, this was to 'keep up with' her sister). But it was also clear that they assume, because it is an SUV, and a bigger car, it will be safer in a crash. But the euro ncap website shows that A, the duster does not perform very well, and B, it's crash test results are actually poorer than the sandero (which itself is not that great compared to the likes of a jazz or polo).

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - daveyK_UK

JLR simply make far too much profit to care about component reliability.

A real shame as an improvement in reliability would see it pick up the type of buyers who would cherish the marque

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - galileo

The more gadgets in a vehicle or other piece of machinery the greater the probability of a failure/malfunction of some sort.

Given equal quality of design, materials and manufacture, units with fewer components and systems will statistically be more reliable.

Top end Range Rovers and the like have more toys, owners who possibly don't read all the instruction manuals, which are necessarily thicker than for a basic vehicle. (How many read the mamanuals for those from cover to cover?)

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

owners who possibly don't read all the instruction manuals

No one will need a manual soon as most cars will have an explanation of whats on the car as needed by the computer, especialy as the dash becomes a screen

its not strictly true that more gadgets equates to probable failure, its more positioning of cables and certain components in the car that cause the problems

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Mike H

I suspect if a backroomer bought a Velar, and looked after it as well as the typical Landcruiser owner looks after their vehicle (helped it must be said by 9/10k or annual proper servicing, none of this extended servicing cobblers) then the Velar would be every bit as reliable as the Japanese product.

I used to change the oil and filter on our old Saab 9-5 Aero religiously every 6,000 miles. It managed 230,000 miles without any engine problems, despite being mildly chipped, even the turbo was original - and I used to be careful to simmer it after our long hard motorway runs in Germany. It added a few pounds to the running costs, as it used fully synthetic oil, but proved its worth in the long term. I also changed the auto trans fluid at shorter intervals than Saab recommended - 75,000 rather than 90,000 - and once again, had absolutely no transmission problems.

Interestingly, the Honda CR-V that replaced it has 12,000 miles service intervals rather than the more common extended (20,000) miles ones. Perhaps that's part of the secret of Honda reliability?

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

I suspect if a backroomer bought a Velar, and looked after it as well as the typical Landcruiser owner looks after their vehicle (helped it must be said by 9/10k or annual proper servicing, none of this extended servicing cobblers) then the Velar would be every bit as reliable as the Japanese product.

I used to change the oil and filter on our old Saab 9-5 Aero religiously every 6,000 miles. It managed 230,000 miles without any engine problems, despite being mildly chipped, even the turbo was original - and I used to be careful to simmer it after our long hard motorway runs in Germany. It added a few pounds to the running costs, as it used fully synthetic oil, but proved its worth in the long term. I also changed the auto trans fluid at shorter intervals than Saab recommended - 75,000 rather than 90,000 - and once again, had absolutely no transmission problems.

Interestingly, the Honda CR-V that replaced it has 12,000 miles service intervals rather than the more common extended (20,000) miles ones. Perhaps that's part of the secret of Honda reliability?

Partly, but I think its more to do with the following:

  1. More of the R&D money spent on testing than the appearance of the car than Euro makes;
  2. Less optional extras available so less combinations of parts to test within the cars' development schedule, leading to better appreciation of what will work reliably together;
  3. Less 'tinkering' with cars' specs over the lifetime of a model (VAG, is in my view, particularly likes doing this, especially with engines, whereas most Japanese/Korean makes leave main components alone for the most part or make very minor changes);
  4. Better customer service, including during sales, so potential owners do not buy (to a lesser degree than some makes) cars that aren't suitable for their use, e.g. buying a diesel-engined car for short journeys/low mileage and explaining to them how to get the best out of the car/drive and own them sympathetically (e.g. leaving a turbo-charged car time to idle before switching off).

Someone who is guided to buy a car that is right for them will both keep going back to that manufacturer and get a more rewarding/better ownership experience out of that car. That often includes, to me at least, treating the car right, which helps reliability. I believe many makes which concentrate more about the car's looks, power/speed and/or image will often not care so much about what happens after the keys are handed over.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - gordonbennet

Interestingly, the Honda CR-V that replaced it has 12,000 miles service intervals rather than the more common extended (20,000) miles ones. Perhaps that's part of the secret of Honda reliability?

  1. More of the R&D money spent on testing than the appearance of the car than Euro makes;

I think you both have good points here, sensible servicing is a given as is proving components.

There is another factor too, don't know about Honda but i know Toyota ECU's were and probably still are extremely difficult to tamper with, and they are reluctant to try and push more and more power from a given engine for the sake of it.

This means the engine is running well within its limits at sensible revs and more importantly stops the usual places reprogramming the thing to make it do what Toyota didn't intend it to, leading to long drivetrain life too.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - mss1tw
maniacal sympathy

That's the best auto correct I've ever seen! I picture someone alternately sobbing and laughing while waxing their car at 3am and whispering sweet nothings to it.
All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Smileyman

it's why BL crashed - likes of me only ever purchased one car, so many problems - never again .....

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Falkirk Bairn

Many years ago I worked for a computer manufacturer - YES - we used to make things in the UK!

Components, sub assemblies, parts etc etc all had expected failure rates out of the box, within the first few days of use, within warranty, within the economic life (say 5 years) - changes to design, build etc were made to increase reliability, improve ease of repair etc.

Then there was the assembly, testing, packaging etc etc which was all quality checked to ensure the unit "was the best it could be" @ that priced point.

Statistically they "knew the overall reliability" for a product.

The problem for car manufacturers is that many do not look at the big picture but only at the quality of components they buy in & assemble.

For every £1 invested in quality @ the design stage you can save £10 in factory changes & £100 if the product needs fixing in the field.

BMC, British Leyland, Rover........changed names often but never seemed to spend money on quality - not the ones I bought in the 1970s!

A customer of mine managed to sell nearly 500 computers in a Xmas offer to teachers via their 1991 NUT magazine. He was a small company & worried about not testing the equipment before shipping....even allowing only 30 mins to unbox, test & rebox he could not handle 500 boxes in 1 week without affecting his "business as usual" - we took advice & shipped the lot without testing them - he got 1 back - smashed in the bottom of the box by transit damage......every one seemed to be 100% apart from that.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - gordonbennet

The pity about BL is that the sharing of body design engines etc with Honda put the quality back in the product, and why you will see so many Rovers of a certain age still in daily use, arguably as long lived as Pug 405's and longer lived than many of the German marques.

Greed ruined Rover in the end not quality or lack of it, Honda dropped for BMW money who cherry picked the marques and factories they wanted, and the few who took Rover on afterwards bled it dry.

MINI brand is hardly the byword in reliability either but image and brand sells, so much for supposed BL ineptitude.

Edited by gordonbennet on 18/09/2017 at 09:23

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Wackyracer

People rarely buy things based on logical thinking and research. Most people buy things because they are the 'in' brand or because they look good.

Over the last few years I've seen an increase of premium brands cheaping out on the quality of their products. While it may seem a good way of getting some extra profit, How long will it take the customers to notice that the quality has dropped if they haven't already noticed the warranty period is a fifth of what it used to be?

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - madf

"People rarely buy things based on logical thinking and research. Most people buy things because they are the 'in' brand or because they look good"

Long may it continue. I end up buying their unused/semi new castoffs for half price or less on ebay/Gumtree etc..

Why buy at fiull price? Done carefully I have never had any problems. My Iphone/laptop/PC /monitors. /satnav/camera were all bought like that and are still fully functional .. as are all our cars..

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Wackyracer

"People rarely buy things based on logical thinking and research. Most people buy things because they are the 'in' brand or because they look good"

Long may it continue. I end up buying their unused/semi new castoffs for half price or less on ebay/Gumtree etc..

Why buy at fiull price? Done carefully I have never had any problems. My Iphone/laptop/PC /monitors. /satnav/camera were all bought like that and are still fully functional .. as are all our cars..

I think you misunderstood me a little, what I was meaning is for example a person wanting to buy a car will buy an Alfa rather than a Toyota Auris because it looks good without thinking about the overall reliability. Personally I'd rather buy the bland looking Auris (and secondhand too like you). I value build quality and reliability over everything else.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - madf

Even the gullibly stupid stopped buying Renaults in their period of "let's elecrtrify everything and make sure it lasts no more than 24 months" phase in the 2000s

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - pd

Reliability doesn't sell. When buying a new shiny car no one wants to think about it going wrong.

Everyone says "Can you recommend me a reliable car, must be reliable etc.." then someone recommends a beige Nissan Almera or the modern equivalent and suddently it turns out in actual fact the size of the alloy wheels are 10x more important to the buyer than whether it will go wrong or not.

The fact that VAG sell so many cars and make so much money is testimony to this.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

Reliability doesn't sell. When buying a new shiny car no one wants to think about it going wrong.

Everyone says "Can you recommend me a reliable car, must be reliable etc.." then someone recommends a beige Nissan Almera or the modern equivalent and suddently it turns out in actual fact the size of the alloy wheels are 10x more important to the buyer than whether it will go wrong or not.

The fact that VAG sell so many cars and make so much money is testimony to this.

Perhaps, but I think times are changing, especially after Dieselgate (not over of course), as VAG (and possibly other brands) will have to pay out many $Bns in fines and compensation, so there's only three ways this can be paid for:

  • Directly from money in the bank and not recouping the money from other sources (presumably lowering share prices in VAG);
  • Putting up prices to cover the amount. This would reduce sales probably to the extent that the overall effect was either negligable or slightly negative, or;
  • Reducing costs in terms of production (VAG has already done this, sometimes leading to problems, e.g. the timing chain issue) and/or R&D (which could severely impact sales through them falling behing other makes, OR reducing engineering quality (in my opinion they've got form in this area) which in my view just exacerbates the existing problems with customer perception of the brand.

Personally they should go for the first, but I wouldn't mind betting they go for the latter. Eventually, if reliability suffers considerably and its widely reported, sales and therefore profits WILL suffer. Many British makes went to the wall because of poor reliability and customer service that came out of poor management decisions to save money in the wrong way.

I would say that buying cars because of 'image' is something that seems to mainly affect the richer nations, particularly in the urban areas of the world. As economic wealth evens out over time, this may change to the more 'sensible approach' of more poorer and rural nations, where reliability is vital.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - gordonbennet

Reliability sells when vehicles get past the warranty period, and the further out of warranty the bigger the difference.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - badbusdriver

Reliability sells when vehicles get past the warranty period, and the further out of warranty the bigger the difference.

Sure, but how many people these days keep a car beyond the warranty period?. Most people lease their car as it is the only way they can afford to put the car they want on the drive.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - carl233

Had a 17 plate Jag XF as a hire car for a week and whilst it looked good and went around corners extremely well the quality seemed below par. On two occasions the entertainment screen shut down mid drive and was dead. When the car was restarted it then worked as expected. It felt like a vehicle that would in its later life be a money pit for some poor second hand buyer.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Steveieb
Checked over my sons girlfriends Yaris MK 1 year 2000 and was amazed how well it is made. No issues even after no attention for three months. Even fitted with a dipstick for the auto box.
No issues with the air con either and no sign of rust.

No wonder Genuine Japanese cars are so popular in the Middle East and the Indian sub continent where they get very little maintenance.

Expect everyone has heard the Australian saying that if you want to venture in the outback take a LR but if you want to get back take a Toyota.
All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - pd

We are supposedly 2-3 years away from driverless cars yet many manufacturers can't make a car where the screen does not crash or hold a reliable Bluetooth connection....

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - madf

We are supposedly 2-3 years away from driverless cars yet many manufacturers can't make a car where the screen does not crash or hold a reliable Bluetooth connection....

Quite..

Modern car electronics make a laptop appear primitive. Given the almost infinite number of variation sof things that can happen and the use of Carnbus wiring which carries signals to tell most things what to do, testing a complete system properly for all combinations will require millions if not billions of si,ulations.

Which explains why the Japanese are lagging on hi tech cars... proper testing take finite amounts of time.. and well designed and protected systems...

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Bilboman

Returning to previous comments about image, it is indeed curious that in the aftermath of "dieselgate", sales of VW branded cars have taken a beating while many Skoda, Seat and Audi models with the very same engines have seen sales climb, leaving Volkswagen as the whipping boy of the brand.
I dare say the same is true of other "dual brands" in many other sectors. One that springs to mind is Iberia/Vueling - the appalling reputation for late bags and cancelled flights currently sticks to the "low cost" brand while Iberia pumps out an upmarket image, glowing in the reflected glory of its alliance with BA and this, its 90th anniversary year, yadda yadda...

Edited by Bilboman on 19/09/2017 at 11:33

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - alan1302

sales of VW branded cars have taken a beating while many Skoda, Seat and Audi models with the very same engines have seen sales climb, leaving Volkswagen as the whipping boy of the brand.

I don't know if it is that strange - I'm sure many people have no idea that Skoda/Seat/VW and Audi are all the same company and a lot of the car underneath the bodywork are essentially the same.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

We are supposedly 2-3 years away from driverless cars yet many manufacturers can't make a car where the screen does not crash or hold a reliable Bluetooth connection....

Quite..

Modern car electronics make a laptop appear primitive. Given the almost infinite number of variation sof things that can happen and the use of Carnbus wiring which carries signals to tell most things what to do, testing a complete system properly for all combinations will require millions if not billions of si,ulations.

Which explains why the Japanese are lagging on hi tech cars... proper testing take finite amounts of time.. and well designed and protected systems...

Yep - car manufacturers that are, in my opinion, more concerned with being 'the first to market' with such-and-such gizmo rather than adequately testing it with all the other components in the car in situ deserve all the problems they get. I personally have little sympathy with them if they get hung out to dry by governments if they either deliberately hide this from consumers and/or (especially) it results in safety-related issues arising.

Additionally, some new tech in cars is, (again) in my opinion, effectively being 'beta tested' by consumers but aren't being told as such. The risk is, as, in my view, was shown with VAG, and VW in particular, that 'pushing the envelope' in this regard can be a very high risk venture, which brings great rewards if it pays off, but could lead to ruin if it doesn't. Only time will tell if this debacle will do so or not, especially when the US government is, in my view, using Dieselgate to hit European makes very hard in order to bolster their weak domestic manufacturers.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - movilogo

People do not really study stats before buying cars. Their brand perception is based on ads they see on media and what their friends/relative/colleague etc. say over dinner tables. For e.g. people buy Land Rovers not because they want to go offroad but they want to impress others :-)

To rephrase, human mind although claims to be rational, often takes irrational decisions. There is an interesting book on this topic "Predictably Irrational".

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Andrew-T

<< car manufacturers that are, in my opinion, more concerned with being 'the first to market' with such-and-such gizmo rather than adequately testing it with all the other components in the car in situ deserve all the problems they get. >>

That's all very well, but unfortunately the buyers get the problems first, having been taken in by the up-to-date image. I think they should expect better.

Some buyers will react by saying 'I won't buy another of those' while others may continue with blind brand loyalty.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

<< car manufacturers that are, in my opinion, more concerned with being 'the first to market' with such-and-such gizmo rather than adequately testing it with all the other components in the car in situ deserve all the problems they get. >>

That's all very well, but unfortunately the buyers get the problems first, having been taken in by the up-to-date image. I think they should expect better.

Some buyers will react by saying 'I won't buy another of those' while others may continue with blind brand loyalty.

Not sure why you're questioning my comments - I actually said I disliked the method od car firms using customers as beta testers, i.e. I have no sympathy with the firms, if, say, they get sued or heavily fined by governments. I do have sympathy for customers lead down the garden path, though less so for those who are lazy and do no 'homework' (research) at all when buying a car - which you DON'T need to be a mechanic or an automotive/mechannical engineer to do sucessfully - it helps, but you can still do a good job if you're not either.

You often get the 'blind loyalty' from those who been lucky enough never to have had a major (non-wear and tear) fault with their car, who think their luck is the norm; similarly those who've been very unlucky think the opposite. Unless you've got loads of cash to spray around, buying a car should be mostly from a common sense POV, given its the second most you'll ever spend on a single putchase in life, and a bit of heart thrown in. Sadly most people don't see it that way in this country, especially in the last 30 years or so.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Andrew-T

<< Not sure why you're questioning my comments - I actually said .... >>

I'm not sure why you think I am questioning your comments, Andy. Any 'problems the makers get' follow from the problems suffered by their customers, that's all.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

<< car manufacturers that are, in my opinion, more concerned with being 'the first to market' with such-and-such gizmo rather than adequately testing it with all the other components in the car in situ deserve all the problems they get. >>

That's all very well, but unfortunately the buyers get the problems first, having been taken in by the up-to-date image. I think they should expect better.

Some buyers will react by saying 'I won't buy another of those' while others may continue with blind brand loyalty.

Problem is, someone has to be first to market with any new gadget otherwise it would take years to get on a car, I agree its sometimes too early, but not always manufacturers fault if they have tested it, they rely on the makers of the components, so usually its just bad luck anything goes wrong and usually a batch, not one or two

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Andrew-T

<< Problem is, someone has to be first to market with any new gadget otherwise it would take years to get on a car, I agree its sometimes too early, >>

Agreed. I think the game of leapfrogging gadgetry may have already gone too far between car makers. Some gizmos just aren't necessary, or even useful in some cases. Others are overcomplicated. But some buyers like the idea of new toys and will buy regardless.

The shapes of cars were optimised long ago in the wind tunnel, so all the stylists can do now is tinker with things like lamp clusters and waistlines - and of course they have to be bigger than the last. There will soon be no more tunes to be played on the touch screen. So the next toy will have to be a car that needs no driver. The roads are already choked with driven cars - do we need more just going on their own?

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

do we need more just going on their own

I`m not so sure it will happen, although there is talk of making robots think for themselves, the common sense side of the brain is something that cannot be programmed or learned by a computer. not for a very long time anyway, so I think this idea of auto cars will gradually die off

and now this new report has said global warming is not happening as fast as originally thought, electric cars and the gadgets that come with them may slow down a bit to concentrate on reducing emissions in petrol and diesel

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

do we need more just going on their own

I`m not so sure it will happen, although there is talk of making robots think for themselves, the common sense side of the brain is something that cannot be programmed or learned by a computer. not for a very long time anyway, so I think this idea of auto cars will gradually die off

and now this new report has said global warming is not happening as fast as originally thought, electric cars and the gadgets that come with them may slow down a bit to concentrate on reducing emissions in petrol and diesel

Don't always believe what the papers say - often with, and especially concerning climate change so-called 'scientific fact' is often confused with or even deliberately shown as fact even though is a subjective opinion.

The DT, for example, published an article today saying that 2nd hand diesel car prices had risen over the past year 'despite' dieselgate, and yet less than two weeks ago they also published an article saying prices had dropped by 25%. One of the two must be wrong, as such a drop would mean that prices rose by 30%+ over the last few months, which is patently not true in my view.

All this 'talk' of self-driving cars and fully electric cars sooner rather than later is just that. Yesterday the DT (and other papers over the last few days) had an article saying that a thrid of all jobs will have been replaced by robots in the next 10 years. Just like AI coming along, we've heard it all before. Technology is advancing, but never at the rate these so-called experts interviewed say - in my view, many are doing so in order to get investment money in their tech start-up firms for their pet projects, most of which don't succeed.

Rarely does technology make a 'leap' as these people say. Real 'experts' keep such 'projections' to themselves so they can invest in things at a low price in order to make lots of £££ - hence why those so-called 'money experts' in newspapers who tell us what to invest in are a waste of time.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

Don't always believe what the papers say

No I dont read papers, a scientist from one of the universities that made the original computer model of the earths weather some ten years ago, was interviewed on radio that the model was wrong and that global warming has slowed down

his point was that the rush for electric cars is not as urgent as everyone makes out, and is nothing to do with disbelieving GW as we know its happening.

apparently japans use of renewable energy is helping as well as other countries, but his thoughts were that more can be done to control car emmisions

Technology is advancing and Ai is already being put into processors,check qualcomm they say the latest processors have Ai in them ready for use.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Engineer Andy

What most people think of as AI are actual autonomous, reasonably self-aware computers/robots etc that can easily interact with humans and perform multiple functions that we can (and not just mltuiple calculations). As far as I'm aware, ther isn't one like that yet, most are at the level of insects or have a very limited range of use in predicting choices or answering questions, e.g. chess-playing or quiz-playing machines (which cannot do both). We were promised so much more 10 years ago by now...

Anyhoo, the problem I have with both sides of climate 'science' is that its so complex and new, especially (as I found out over the last two weeks 'holidaying' in the West Country) as professional weather forecasters can't even get predictions right (often changing completely from hour to hour) from one day to the next. I personally agree that we (human) are having a significant effect on the planet's climate, but we don't have the scientific knowledge yet to determine the long term effects and extent.

In my view, many scientists like to put forward either very differing theories for most things or go with the flow becuase they either want to be seen as the person who was 'right' (very few people remember those who were wrong) or would rather just be an 'establishment figure' to keep their grant money going. Its one of the reasons I became an engineer - I don't like surprises, but I don't care what the answer is, as long as it helps. We as a species are still guessing - I think its right to err on the side of caution, but we shouldn't go to the opposite end of the scale, especially when so many so-called eco firms and tech are nothing of the sort, especially at what often are very immature stages in the development of technology.

I think that too many so-called developments in car technology are being rushed through for marketing reasons, often to pretend to be green or to cultivate an image rather than to be actually of use to anyone. For example:

Stop-start systems;

Touchscreen controls for A/C, ventilation and other very useful basic functions in cars;

Proprietary ICE and especially sat-nav systems that cannot be used without huge extra payments for 'updates' after 2-3 years and possibly won't be updated at all after 5-7 (like many OSes) rather than generic ones or even blank systems that can work on any smart phone (with the correct security installed);

Electronic parking brakes;

General fly-by-wire and computerised car control systems, given computer and OS manufacturers can't even get PCs, tablets and phones systems generally bug-free yet (for the same reasons - development periods too short). As we've seen, some cars can easily be hacked and taken control of, and not just by the Police. Probably the next stage in ransomware.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - corax
and now this new report has said global warming is not happening as fast as originally thought, electric cars and the gadgets that come with them may slow down a bit to concentrate on reducing emissions in petrol and diesel

I can't remember the last time we had a tough winter, unless you count 2009/10 for the snow, but it hasn't really been cold like it used to be with thick hoar frosts. The seasons seem to be all over the place. Surely no one can deny it. If it is down to us, then I don't have much faith in our ability to stop it. Sales of cars keep going up in the world, people want their budget overseas holidays on government subsidised jet fuel burning millions of tons an hour, life goes on as usual.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - bolt

If it is down to us, then I don't have much faith in our ability to stop it.

I never have believed we could stop it, nature is a force unto itself and the world changes with or without us, I think we have to live with it and adapt, which means spending vast amounts of cash that no one apparently has(or wants to spend)

But everyone wants to blame someone for it whether it is our fault or not!

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - Andrew-T

If it is down to us, then I don't have much faith in our ability to stop it.

I never have believed we could stop it, nature is a force unto itself and the world changes with or without us, I think we have to live with it and adapt, which means spending vast amounts of cash that no one apparently has(or wants to spend)

But everyone wants to blame someone for it whether it is our fault or not!

I think Corax meant that we (if it was down to us) would not heed the message and try to curb our habits. Unfortunately, whoever or whatever is to blame, the biggest elephant in this room is the global increase in population. We COULD try to do something about that, but the suggestion is too politically sensitive, and the results are too far off to interest politicians. I suspect increasing population pressure is one fundamental cause behind increasing migration waves. Life near the equator is getting less tolerable - hurricanes seem to be another reason to think about moving.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - corax

Quite so, Andrew-T. Can you imagine any politician putting policies in place for curbing population? It's a non starter, yet a sustainable population is the only thing that would save us assuming Yellowstone doesn't blow in the next few hundred years.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - madf

I know three natural forces to reduce population: wars/plagues and famines..They all tend to come together...

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - ExA35Owner

Quite so, Andrew-T. Can you imagine any politician putting policies in place for curbing population? It's a non starter, yet a sustainable population is the only thing that would save us assuming Yellowstone doesn't blow in the next few hundred years.

Yes, these policies have been implemented vigorously in China and India - but not without some major political, economic and social effects.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - movilogo

China once penalized people for having more than one child (think now it is bit relaxed).

India never had official policy but government actively encouraged citizens not to have more than 2 kids (especially in the poorer spectrum of the crowd).

Sustainable population is important for everyone's well being. England (not UK) has one of the highest population densities in the world.

All - Reliability - why is it so difficult for some - gordonbennet

Brave man Movi, talking like that about the England they're about to concrete over, they'll be sending you to one of the re-education camps or you'll have antifa hope not soap or some other unemployables on your doorstep demonstrating about free speech...pause for irony sigh...or something else they don't quite grasp.

 

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