With reference to Engineer Andy's post.
When you read a road test in one of the many publications we read - they always refer to the cost of servicing.
What it neglects to mention is the frequency of servicing.
Basically you can't win.
You produce a car that needs servicing only once every 2 years and it breaks down or you produce a reliable car but costs twice as much to service.
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I've never owned a diesel and personally don't like diesel. I always felt the diesel popularity surge was a misguided con from when the Government started taxing cars according to co2 emissions - they basically bribed the population into buying diesels to save Johnny Polar Bear while ignoring the fact diesels may have lower co2 but they emit higher everything else.
Sensible people always knew it was a con but it took the inevitable VW scandal for most to realise and for politicians to begin admitting their blunder. Diesels by their nature will never be 'clean' in the way regulators have been led to believe is possible, but I don't think this is a major problem because the fact is diesel was never meant for the average passenger car.
Diesel belongs in lorries, buses and vans clocking up six figure mileages every year, not in a Vauxhall Astra going to the office and back. The petrol engine does that job much better. When I was a kid literally nobody drove a diesel car, even my Dad's taxi's ran on 4 Star and since then they've got the lead and most of the sulphur out of petrol which is great - then everyone went and bought lethal carcinogenics instead.
Hopefully the diesel bubble has now burst and people realise there actually is no upside to that horrid noise. Some will talk about mpg but my Jag does about 25 to the gallon and that's what I'm used to, I still doubt I've spent much more on running my car than some people have spent on finance deals for their 1.4 turbo diesel hatchbacks.
Some will say electric cars will take over but I still don't see it, leaving aside the fact this country doesn't produce enough electricity for everyone to have an electric vehicle there's still the issues of millions not parking near where they live, charge point inferstructure, range issues and the sheer cost of the damn things.
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I've never owned a diesel and personally don't like diesel. I always felt the diesel popularity surge was a misguided con from when the Government started taxing cars according to co2 emissions - they basically bribed the population into buying diesels to save Johnny Polar Bear while ignoring the fact diesels may have lower co2 but they emit higher everything else.
Sensible people always knew it was a con but it took the inevitable VW scandal for most to realise and for politicians to begin admitting their blunder. Diesels by their nature will never be 'clean' in the way regulators have been led to believe is possible, but I don't think this is a major problem because the fact is diesel was never meant for the average passenger car.
Diesel belongs in lorries, buses and vans clocking up six figure mileages every year, not in a Vauxhall Astra going to the office and back. The petrol engine does that job much better. When I was a kid literally nobody drove a diesel car, even my Dad's taxi's ran on 4 Star and since then they've got the lead and most of the sulphur out of petrol which is great - then everyone went and bought lethal carcinogenics instead.
Hopefully the diesel bubble has now burst and people realise there actually is no upside to that horrid noise. Some will talk about mpg but my Jag does about 25 to the gallon and that's what I'm used to, I still doubt I've spent much more on running my car than some people have spent on finance deals for their 1.4 turbo diesel hatchbacks.
Some will say electric cars will take over but I still don't see it, leaving aside the fact this country doesn't produce enough electricity for everyone to have an electric vehicle there's still the issues of millions not parking near where they live, charge point inferstructure, range issues and the sheer cost of the damn things.
The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.
The advent of DPFs has eliminated the carcinogenic aspects of diesel - under the current Euro6 we're already at the point were petrols need particulate matter restrictions to keep pace with diesel reductions - under Euro7 many petrols will need DPFs despite their higher exhaust temperatures.
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The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.
The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.
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The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.
The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.
Agreed - for 4 pot diesels. But the V6 (VAG 3.0, 2.7) or BMW straight 6 3.0 diesels are certainly comparable to a big old lazy petrol V8.
I had a 530d loan car a few months ago. Lovely lazy driving style, incredibly smooth and quiet for a diesel, but with monster performance if needed or called upon. 8 speed ZF autobox, cruising at 1500rpm at an indicated 75mph - and doing better than 50mpg whilst doing so (and that's real, not trip computer figures). But plant your foot down, and 0-60 is dismissed in sub-6 seconds, and it's restricted to 155mph. Even in a load of non-motorway driving, it was averaging 40mpg.
Edited by RobJP on 18/08/2017 at 13:20
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The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.
The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.
Agreed - for 4 pot diesels. But the V6 (VAG 3.0, 2.7) or BMW straight 6 3.0 diesels are certainly comparable to a big old lazy petrol V8.
I had a 530d loan car a few months ago. Lovely lazy driving style, incredibly smooth and quiet for a diesel, but with monster performance if needed or called upon. 8 speed ZF autobox, cruising at 1500rpm at an indicated 75mph - and doing better than 50mpg whilst doing so (and that's real, not trip computer figures). But plant your foot down, and 0-60 is dismissed in sub-6 seconds, and it's restricted to 155mph. Even in a load of non-motorway driving, it was averaging 40mpg.
A former colleague's Jag XF diesel gave similar performance, mpg and a smooth, quiet driving experience for such a big car. To be honest, I was actually quite impressed with a mk2 Focus 1.6TD (diesel-of-doom) I had as a hire car (for work) for the day over 10 years ago (before I owned the Mazda3) - it had very good pick up and I found it more controllable than my petrol-engined Mazda3 at slow speeds, which hates creeping forward in first or being around 10-12mph (screaming in first or lugging in second).
When I got the Mazda from Motorpoint back in 2006, I was dithering between a petrol and diesel (they had both on offer at 20-25% off list with del miles [RHD Euro-imports] only back then) as I was going to be doing 15k+ miles a year at that time. Lucky for me I chose the petrol (no idea about the pitfalls of that engine/type at the time) just because I could get a TS2 petrol instead of a TS diesel for the same price and it had the exterior colour/interior trim combo I wanted.
As others have said, I think big barges will continue for a while to favour diesel engines, especially if they're used for reasonable mileages on faster roads. Trying to source a good'un will still be problematic though. Loads of diesels on sale at Motorpoint at the moment, far more than used to be case, and especially VAG (particularly VWs) cars, for obvious reasons. Seems like everyone is trying to offload their stock of them before all the problems kick in.
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The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.
They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.
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The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.
They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.
You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.
The BMW 530d that I mentioned, on the other hand, you're talking 13p per mile running around, and 10p per mile on the motorway.
Do 20k miles a year, and that's about £3,000 that you aren't spending at the pump.
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The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.
They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.
You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.
I have been spoilt living in Australia where fuel is half your prices. For the last 40 years I have been driving big 6 cylinders mostly on long country roads. Regardless of fuel economy I would never touch a modern diesel because any savings could quickly be wiped out by horrendous repair bills. I could be tempted by a 6lt petrol V8 though. ;-)
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The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.
They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.
You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.
The BMW 530d that I mentioned, on the other hand, you're talking 13p per mile running around, and 10p per mile on the motorway.
Do 20k miles a year, and that's about £3,000 that you aren't spending at the pump.
What if you ignore fuel efficiency and government tax on petrol (which is just a result of the overcrowded situation we find ourselves in) and judge each engine on it's merits.
Imagine if you lived in a pleasant world where there were only a few million living in the country and petrol was £1 a gallon.
You step out of your front door, breathe in the fresh morning air and are confronted by two cars, one powered by a turbocharged 6 cylinder diesel, and one with the modern equivalent of the American V8, a 6 litre Chevy LS1 for example.
Which do you go for?
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What if you ignore fuel efficiency and government tax on petrol (which is just a result of the overcrowded situation we find ourselves in) and judge each engine on it's merits.
Imagine if you lived in a pleasant world where there were only a few million living in the country and petrol was £1 a gallon.
You step out of your front door, breathe in the fresh morning air and are confronted by two cars, one powered by a turbocharged 6 cylinder diesel, and one with the modern equivalent of the American V8, a 6 litre Chevy LS1 for example.
Which do you go for?
In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.
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In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.
For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )
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For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )
I remember a rep had one of those - we could hear him coming a mile away with that engine note. For some reason, he (supposedly as he was embarrassed at that) traded it in for a Jeep Cherokee (mid 90s version). Lets hope it wasn't because he wanted a more reliable car...
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In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.
For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )
I pity your neighbours if you had an early start.
I have never understood the popularity of the crude noisy unbalanced thirsty American cross-plane V8 which is so tiresome on a long run in a sports car and requires the sacrifice of so many BHP to smooth and silence it in a saloon. For me, the sophisticated compact VW/Audi 6.0 W12 trounces them all.
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Surprising as it may sound, the Chimaera was almost perfectly reliable in the 2 years of my ownership. Maybe it was the regular servicing ... (no, we won't go there on this thread !).
The one and only time it let me down was about 2 weeks into ownership, when I found out that the fuel guage reading a quarter actually meant it was actually running on fumes.
I did about 10,000 miles in it, all told. A decent mileage for a weekend fun car. Including a trip up to and right round the north of Scotland - North Wales to Portpatrick, Plockton (by Kyle of Lochalsh), Ullapool, Durness, Scrabster, a couple of days over on Orkney, Inverness, Peterhead, Dundee, Edinburgh, then back home. It never missed a beat.
And I don't think I'd have owned one if I lived in town. But nearest neighbours being a few hundred yards away out in the country, I wasn't bothered. Enough heavy farm vehicles meant mine certainly wasn't the loudest thing in the area !
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Other than the Vauxhall Zafira Tourer, there is a major shortage of petrol 7 seaters.
The shortage is keeping nearly new petrol 7 seater prices high
A case in point, at 1 year old, the Citroen C4 Grand Picasso in 1.2 petrol form is more expensive than the same car in 1.6 diesel form despite the diesel being more expensive to buy when new.
Edited by daveyK_UK on 20/08/2017 at 00:58
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The tide is turning against diesel. I think after a year or two, there will be lot more choices in petrols.
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