Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
Just changed job and now only doing 6000 miles a year commuting. Drive a 320d m sport on a 63 plate which I love but will not need a diesel with new job. Had a look at similar cars (need space) and there are just so few out there. Can't see this huge change to petrol cars only on the roads ever happening?
Lack of petrols out there - RT

Over the last 12 months (ish) customers are buying a difference proportion of petrol:diesel than car makers have been building - in addition car sales, new and used are down on a years ago - so it shows by plenty of unwanted diesels out there and few desirable petrols.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
Totally agree I like nice cars and decent specs but in petrol guise they are few and far between
Lack of petrols out there - Manatee

There are 165,000 cars on Autotrader that are 2014-2016. 98.000 of those are diesels, 64,000 petrols.

Intuitively, larger (therefore more expensive) models are more likely to be diesel - the roller skate cars tend to be petrol.

Applying a minimum price of £10,000, there are 79,000 diesels and 30,000 petrol.

Interesting source of statistics - easy to look at makes/models etc.

I wonder what difference colour makes...

Lack of petrols out there - badbusdriver

You don't give any details on what you are after and at what price. But a very quick search on autotrader using these criteria, petrol engine, up to £15k, from 2013, up to 50k miles, gives over 100 BMW 3 series, 29 Audi A4, and 57 Mercedes C class. In addition, there are cars as diverse as the skoda superb (and octavia), mazda 6, and lexus IS250. Yes, there may be more diesels, but there are plenty of petrols out there too.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
3 series estates from 14 on three are 89 and that doesn't take even take into account that only 38 are m sport. In addition 29 Audi's kind of proves my point.
Lack of petrols out there - SLO76
Just changed job and now only doing 6000 miles a year commuting. Drive a 320d m sport on a 63 plate which I love but will not need a diesel with new job. Had a look at similar cars (need space) and there are just so few out there. Can't see this huge change to petrol cars only on the roads ever happening?

It'll take time but you can see the way the wind is blowing. Manufacturers are spending less on developing diesel with more and more of them now buying in engines from other firms rather than going to the expense of building their own with the risk of future legislation killing them. Most are pouring money into downsized petrol turbos, hybrids and full electric tech. For a replacement for your BM it's all dependent on how much you want to spend. The latest Honda 1.0 and 1.5 turbos and VAG 1.0, 1.4 and 1.5 TSi's are excellent. But I'd also look at Mazda's 2.0 Skyactiv range. Petrol will dominate from the C segment downwards from now on but diesels will still take the bulk of larger models for some time to come.
Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
My view is in time manufacturers will develop "cleaner" diesels and the technology will allow diesel electric hybrids which will be the future. People who are panic selling diesels already are mad!
Lack of petrols out there - RobJP

Don't stress over getting rid of it immediately, even though your mileage is far from ideal.

BMW seem to have one of the more resilient DPF designs, and you don't hear of too many horror stories from low-mileage owners.

My mum, for example - she used to have a 116d (a de-tuned 20d unit, basically), which she ran for 4.5 years and 25k miles without a single DPF problem. Her driving was mostly short trips from cold in and around Chester, with a run down the A55 to Anglesey and back (60 miles each way) every 3-4 weeks.

I suspect a lot of those people panic-buying petrols (and panic-selling diesels) will find that the fuel bills come as a bit of a shock, and you'll see a return to normality within 12 months. Whilst there are a few decent and very economical petrol engines out there (the VAG 1.4 comes to mind, highly rated in real-world use by a few people on here), the majority are nowhere near that level.

People who've panic-moved from something like a 1.5 diesel Focus getting a real 50+ mpg to a 1.5 petrol, and are now getting 35mpg, will be finding it a bit of a shock to the wallet.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
I think your right, I will do the odd. Last 40 miles every weekend so may just stick to the diesel for the time being. I don't think I could cope with the shock of the fuel bills!
Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy

Perhaps, but its the many horror stories of diesels costing several £000s to fix and that can 'go' at any time when used in such a way that its mostly a lottery. People can take the risk and win, but not everyone. What doesn't help either are the manufacturer's long service intervals for many of those cars, which means you have a lot of cars on the road that in nowhere near tip-top condition.

You're mum was probably lucky, though perhaps not the person she (presumably) sold the car to after 4.5 years. The blast down a fast road every few weeks helped a reasonable amount, but note that many people don't even do that, hence the high incidence of problems on cars that are out of warranty.

I think also some makes have been more sensible (and honest) than others when selling diesel cars, i.e. they try and persuade punters that you should only buy a diesel car if you do large annual mileages or at the very least go for the type of trip you mum did preferably once a week or two at most.

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy
My view is in time manufacturers will develop "cleaner" diesels and the technology will allow diesel electric hybrids which will be the future. People who are panic selling diesels already are mad!

Diesel cars still by their very nature (not something that can be 'designed out') take far longer than petrol engined ones to warm up, which is the main cause of these problems - all the regens do is use (waste) fuel to burn off the (extra) soot created by using them for short journeys - all extra technology would do is use energy that could be used to propel the car forward to get rid of the nasties.

Take a look at the exciting new developments from Mazda on their HCCI petrol engined cars they are developing for the next generation of 'Skyactiv' - if they can pull it off (and be reliable over the longer term), then they will effectively replace diesel engines (with some hybrid electrics) until (eventually) fully electric and/or fuel cell car technology does after it matures.

In the meantime, there's lots of 'non-premium' (great cars without the snob badges) petrol cars out there (new and used), you just have to look and think beyond the German badges, many of which (in my view) don't fit their 'premium' badge in terms of reliability and customer service. As others have said, due to dieselgate and politicians going up against diesel vehicles (especially in cities), the huge increase in diesel cars available on the nearly new and second hand market was inevitable, and will eventually reduce down, probably in a few years.

Lack of petrols out there - RT
My view is in time manufacturers will develop "cleaner" diesels and the technology will allow diesel electric hybrids which will be the future. People who are panic selling diesels already are mad!

Diesel cars still by their very nature (not something that can be 'designed out') take far longer than petrol engined ones to warm up, which is the main cause of these problems - all the regens do is use (waste) fuel to burn off the (extra) soot created by using them for short journeys - all extra technology would do is use energy that could be used to propel the car forward to get rid of the nasties.

Take a look at the exciting new developments from Mazda on their HCCI petrol engined cars they are developing for the next generation of 'Skyactiv' - if they can pull it off (and be reliable over the longer term), then they will effectively replace diesel engines (with some hybrid electrics) until (eventually) fully electric and/or fuel cell car technology does after it matures.

In the meantime, there's lots of 'non-premium' (great cars without the snob badges) petrol cars out there (new and used), you just have to look and think beyond the German badges, many of which (in my view) don't fit their 'premium' badge in terms of reliability and customer service. As others have said, due to dieselgate and politicians going up against diesel vehicles (especially in cities), the huge increase in diesel cars available on the nearly new and second hand market was inevitable, and will eventually reduce down, probably in a few years.

The slower warm-up of diesels is because they're inherently more efficient - so less waste heat to warm things up and better economy as well as less CO2 - diesels will never lose that advantage over petrols.

There are things that can be done with a diesel (that can't with a petrol) to speed the warm-up process - some premium SUVs have a diesel-fired parking heater, when used in winter it does actually reduce overall fuel consumption as well as make the cabin comfortable - a version of that heating the engine/transmission as soon as the ignition is switched on could be developed and improve cold-start economy and emissions.

To achieve the same with a petrol would require the re-introduction of 230V heaters like the Kenlowe Hot Start - as petrol heaters have long been banned (outside of the military).

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy

The slower warm-up of diesels is because they're inherently more efficient - so less waste heat to warm things up and better economy as well as less CO2 - diesels will never lose that advantage over petrols.

There are things that can be done with a diesel (that can't with a petrol) to speed the warm-up process - some premium SUVs have a diesel-fired parking heater, when used in winter it does actually reduce overall fuel consumption as well as make the cabin comfortable - a version of that heating the engine/transmission as soon as the ignition is switched on could be developed and improve cold-start economy and emissions.

To achieve the same with a petrol would require the re-introduction of 230V heaters like the Kenlowe Hot Start - as petrol heaters have long been banned (outside of the military).

Wouldn't the use of a pre-heater (energy of any type) to warm up the car offset the gains in fuel efficiency when using it? As far as I recall, diesel engines take above 10mins + to warm up, whereas the (less thermally efficient) petrol engined ones are at optimal temperature in a fifth of the time. Perhaps we need a small petrol engine combined with a standard diesel (two tanks!), rather like a petrol-electric hybrid? I wonder what will happen if and when Mazda crack the HCCI petrol engines - will they heat up as quickly as petrol engines do today if they are more efficient?

It might even be worth houses having some kind of external heat exchanger system linked to heat producing appliances such as home heating boilers (exhaust) or ovens (when in use of course) that could use heat energy to preheat car engines that would've been wasted to the atmoshere or room, a bit like district heating systems use waste heat from industry to heat homes etc. Just a thought.

Lack of petrols out there - RT

Wouldn't the use of a pre-heater (energy of any type) to warm up the car offset the gains in fuel efficiency when using it? As far as I recall, diesel engines take above 10mins + to warm up, whereas the (less thermally efficient) petrol engined ones are at optimal temperature in a fifth of the time. .

That's not my experience using the diesel parking heater in winter on my VW Touareg - used in sub-zero conditions primarily to get the cabin warm the fuel consumption based on brim-to-brim is better than above zero conditions when I don't use it - perhaps I should.

On my Touareg, the heated coolant only circulates in the cabin until the engine is started but rapidly warms up the engine/transmission.

A mains pre-heater would be cleaner is it would be powered by the excess of renewable energy that's planned - or maybe just hoped for!

Lack of petrols out there - RichT54
My view is in time manufacturers will develop "cleaner" diesels and the technology will allow diesel electric hybrids which will be the future. People who are panic selling diesels already are mad!

Diesel cars still by their very nature (not something that can be 'designed out') take far longer than petrol engined ones to warm up, which is the main cause of these problems - all the regens do is use (waste) fuel to burn off the (extra) soot created by using them for short journeys - all extra technology would do is use energy that could be used to propel the car forward to get rid of the nasties.


How about the ones that use AdBlue? Do they still do regenerations and/or have the problems that other diesels have? Do they have their own problems?

Lack of petrols out there - RT
My view is in time manufacturers will develop "cleaner" diesels and the technology will allow diesel electric hybrids which will be the future. People who are panic selling diesels already are mad!

Diesel cars still by their very nature (not something that can be 'designed out') take far longer than petrol engined ones to warm up, which is the main cause of these problems - all the regens do is use (waste) fuel to burn off the (extra) soot created by using them for short journeys - all extra technology would do is use energy that could be used to propel the car forward to get rid of the nasties.

How about the ones that use AdBlue? Do they still do regenerations and/or have the problems that other diesels have? Do they have their own problems?

Soot, particle matter, DPFs and regeneration are nothing to do with Adblue - Adblue is there to reduce NOx - the DPF is there to reduce soot/PMs.

The cost of Adblue,£0.70-1.50 per litre is the issue when it's consumed at 1 litre per 400-600 miles.

Edited by RT on 17/08/2017 at 11:37

Lack of petrols out there - FP

I agree with the others that you probably don't need to do anything just yet, but if and when you want to change to petrol you will need to be patient.

My recent experience with finding a used petrol Mazda CX-5 shows that the cars are there, but thin on the ground.

Whether there is in fact a future for diesel I couldn't say; how much further can technology go in making diesels cleaner without complicated, unreliable (and potentially costly) solutions?

However, I'm excited by Mazda's continued development of petrol engines - specifically the next generation of their SkyActiv engines with 18:1 compression, ultra-low emisssions and high economy. Claimed to rival for cost and cleanliness an electric car charged from the mains, if you take into account the cost of generating the electricity.

Lack of petrols out there - Cris_on_the_gas

By your own admission you love your car.

I have got this theory, every time you trade a car you lose money ! Others might disagree but that's my experience.

So keep it and be happy, oh and enjoy the new job, hope it means you get more time to yourself now not travelling so much.

Edited by Cris_on_the_gas on 17/08/2017 at 11:49

Lack of petrols out there - daveyjp

If you are thinking of changing no rush. Take your time, check the webistes regularly and something will crop up. It took me about 6 months before I found a Forester at a local dealer.

If you are still wanting a BM 3 series consider the GT as well as estates - it has more interior space and when I considered one a few years ago finding a petrol wasn't a problem.

Lack of petrols out there - Wayne Dibbley

Dead right about decent size car petrol availability.

I've been searching for a year now and still havn't got anything to replace my beloved Leon 130TDI.

Or could it be I just can't let the Leon go?

Lack of petrols out there - Big John

I've been searching for a year now and still havn't got anything to replace my beloved Leon 130TDI.

Not surprised - the 1.9 130 pd engine was a cracker

Edited by Big John on 17/08/2017 at 20:46

Lack of petrols out there - galileo

If you are thinking of changing no rush. Take your time, check the webistes regularly and something will crop up. It took me about 6 months before I found a Forester at a local dealer.

If you are still wanting a BM 3 series consider the GT as well as estates - it has more interior space and when I considered one a few years ago finding a petrol wasn't a problem.

J D Power survey out today, I see from today's Telegraph.

Least reliable: BMW, 198 faults per hundred cars

Next least reliable: Audi, 187 faults per hundred

Most reliable (jointly) Kia and Volvo, 83 faults per hundred cars.

J D Power rankings may not be totally fair and relevant but must have some significance.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith

If you are thinking of changing no rush. Take your time, check the webistes regularly and something will crop up. It took me about 6 months before I found a Forester at a local dealer.

If you are still wanting a BM 3 series consider the GT as well as estates - it has more interior space and when I considered one a few years ago finding a petrol wasn't a problem.

J D Power survey out today, I see from today's Telegraph.

Least reliable: BMW, 198 faults per hundred cars

Next least reliable: Audi, 187 faults per hundred

Most reliable (jointly) Kia and Volvo, 83 faults per hundred cars.

J D Power rankings may not be totally fair and relevant but must have some significance.

This doesn't take into consideration the number of bmws sold compared to volvos
Lack of petrols out there - RT

If you are thinking of changing no rush. Take your time, check the webistes regularly and something will crop up. It took me about 6 months before I found a Forester at a local dealer.

If you are still wanting a BM 3 series consider the GT as well as estates - it has more interior space and when I considered one a few years ago finding a petrol wasn't a problem.

J D Power survey out today, I see from today's Telegraph.

Least reliable: BMW, 198 faults per hundred cars

Next least reliable: Audi, 187 faults per hundred

Most reliable (jointly) Kia and Volvo, 83 faults per hundred cars.

J D Power rankings may not be totally fair and relevant but must have some significance.

This doesn't take into consideration the number of bmws sold compared to volvos

Since the figures are "per hundred cars", it does take that into account.

Lack of petrols out there - RobJP

It certainly doesn't take into consideration the mileage done on cars. For example, Kias are generally bought by older private buyers, and do lower mileages.

BMW and Audi, on the other hand, a large number of company cars. I saw a 3 series in BCA a couple of years ago, less than 3 years old with over 200k on the clock.

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy

I think many of these 'reliability surveys' are a waste of time, partly for the reasons RobJP says, but also because:

a) It and others only looks at a specific period in the lifespan of the car - year 1 for the JD Power survey, and during the period that perople take out an aftermarket warranty (the 'Reliability Index' survey from Warranty Direct). The first often capture manufacturing 'faults', the second one, whilst some measure of longer term reliability, doesn't start off on an equal footing - a KIA would be more than 7 years old, whereas a Ford (for example) would only be 3 years old, and neither would the record of in-warranty replacements and official recalls before that period would be counted.

For example, a 3.5 year old Ford Focus that had had 3 recalls and gone through (replaced under warranty) two PS gearboxes would have newer parts in it than a 7.5 year old KIA Ceed which had no recalls or in-warranty replacements. If Ford had (say permanently fixed the reliability woes of the PS box (not yet), then the car would have a gearbox etc up to four years younger with less wear on it than the KIA car, but RI treats them as 'year 1 equal'. This, to me, is patently unfair to makes that are reliable over their warranty period and who give longer warranties anyway.

b) I wonder how objective they are, given that people have different expectations of what they buy, how it drives and how they will use it. An OAP who (like my parents) uses their car as a shopping car (with an occasional longer journey every few months, mileage around 3k a year) will mean they don't use all the toys (to me, it doesn't matter if a car has more or less, as they SHOULD all work fine for at least the length of the warranty period) such as the radio or CD player, and of course, they do far less mileage than someone using a similar car from another make for commuting, even if that's around or just below the annual service interval mileage.

For those doing 25k miles a year for commuting or as a company car on business (especially if used commercially like taxis), or even those cars used a lot by parents with kids, then 'reliability' can surely easily be mixed up with 'wear and tear'. I'm not sure this sort of thing is really taken into account, as surely it could make a HUGE difference if not.

- - - - - - - - -

I think what is needed is an ongoing survey over the life of cars, say a 10 year (or longer) period, and also should take into account all the above I've stated and the cost-benefit of, for example, pricier but more reliable parts against cheaper and less reliable ones. This would especially benefit those makes that offer longer warranties, especially on parts that other deem 'wear and tear' on their shorter warranty periods, so they currently 'get away' with not having to replace parts for free, even if the EU rules sort-of state that many should last 6 (?) years without fault if used/maintained correctly.

The same goes for servicing - if a firm says their cars need servicing (especially oil changes) less often than another, then it would be only deemed more reliable if those parts actually lasted the interval period and didn't (as long oil changes seem to do) contribute to other faults. I suspect that customer service does have some bearing on the JD Power survey, but I'm unsure as to how much, as car firms who are 'less than willing' to honour geneuine claims should be marked down than those who do, especially when they are serviced at a main dealer even outside the warranty period (even when that's a part 'goodwill' contribution').

Reliability, or at least how good a make is, should include the length of time a car is off the road (owner inconvenienced or how often they have to revisit the dealer with the same problem that wasn't fixed the first X times) and how many times it took for it to be fixed.

Sorry to go rather off topic here.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith

If you are thinking of changing no rush. Take your time, check the webistes regularly and something will crop up. It took me about 6 months before I found a Forester at a local dealer.

If you are still wanting a BM 3 series consider the GT as well as estates - it has more interior space and when I considered one a few years ago finding a petrol wasn't a problem.

J D Power survey out today, I see from today's Telegraph.

Least reliable: BMW, 198 faults per hundred cars

Next least reliable: Audi, 187 faults per hundred

Most reliable (jointly) Kia and Volvo, 83 faults per hundred cars.

J D Power rankings may not be totally fair and relevant but must have some significance.

This doesn't take into consideration the number of bmws sold compared to volvos

Since the figures are "per hundred cars", it does take that into account.

No because it could per 100 out of 1000 volvos or per 100 out of 10000 audi's

Lack of petrols out there - RT
This doesn't take into consideration the number of bmws sold compared to volvos

Since the figures are "per hundred cars", it does take that into account.

No because it could per 100 out of 1000 volvos or per 100 out of 10000 audi's

I think you'll find that per hundred cars is the ONLY way to compare fairly.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
Absolute garbage
Lack of petrols out there - RT
Absolute garbage

If you understand statistical comparisons, then please explain how they should be made

If 10 Volvos fail out of 1,000 sold, that's 1 per 100 - if 100 out of 10,000 Audi's sold fail, that's also 1 per 100 - what other way is there to compare when volume sold is different.

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy
Absolute garbage

If you understand statistical comparisons, then please explain how they should be made

If 10 Volvos fail out of 1,000 sold, that's 1 per 100 - if 100 out of 10,000 Audi's sold fail, that's also 1 per 100 - what other way is there to compare when volume sold is different.

There should be a mileage basis as well - a car that only does 3 miles a year wears differently to one that does 10k or 25k miles, as one that does short urban vs longer motorway trips. Numbers alone cannot be accurate.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
Absolute garbage

If you understand statistical comparisons, then please explain how they should be made

If 10 Volvos fail out of 1,000 sold, that's 1 per 100 - if 100 out of 10,000 Audi's sold fail, that's also 1 per 100 - what other way is there to compare when volume sold is different.

There should be a mileage basis as well - a car that only does 3 miles a year wears differently to one that does 10k or 25k miles, as one that does short urban vs longer motorway trips. Numbers alone cannot be accurate.

Agree 100% also using 1 per 100 still does not consider the total volume of cars sold for a statistical purpose. Why do you think Lexus and tesla always come out on top in customer reliability surveys? I'll answer for you, they sell about 25 a year
Lack of petrols out there - RT
Absolute garbage

If you understand statistical comparisons, then please explain how they should be made

If 10 Volvos fail out of 1,000 sold, that's 1 per 100 - if 100 out of 10,000 Audi's sold fail, that's also 1 per 100 - what other way is there to compare when volume sold is different.

There should be a mileage basis as well - a car that only does 3 miles a year wears differently to one that does 10k or 25k miles, as one that does short urban vs longer motorway trips. Numbers alone cannot be accurate.

Agree 100% also using 1 per 100 still does not consider the total volume of cars sold for a statistical purpose. Why do you think Lexus and tesla always come out on top in customer reliability surveys? I'll answer for you, they sell about 25 a year

You're not explaining your logic.

If Lexus sell 25 cars/year and have 1 fault, that's 4 faults per 100 - if Ford sell 25,000 cars/year and have 1,000 faults, that's also 4 faults per 100 - which is the more reliable?

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
You are completely contradicting yourself. That's my point 1 per 100 is nonsense. Your example illustrates this perfectly well done
Lack of petrols out there - Slow Eddie

RT, did you pay for the 5-minute argument, or book for the full half-hour? :-)

Anyway, please soldier on; this has comedy value.

Lack of petrols out there - NAthan smith
I agree sometimes people just have to admit they are wrong !
Lack of petrols out there - RT
I agree sometimes people just have to admit they are wrong !

If I'm wrong, I'll openly admit it but you'll need to explain what's wrong about faults per hundred as as way of fairly comparing different numbers of cars sold.

Edited by RT on 19/08/2017 at 10:33

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy

Just to chime in again on this rumbling argument - Sorry Nathan, but I'm not agreeing with your side when I put forward my 'argument' about adding a mileage component to the surveys. RT is dead right in their logic about the percentages stats (if taken separately from any other), i.e.

I failure in 100 - 1% failure rate

100 failures in 10,000 - also 1% failure rate

What WOULD be significant is when the sample size is deemed too small. In the past, some car manufacturers have been excluded from customer satisfation surveys precisely because they sell too few cars to be able to get an accurate result. Lexus isn't (these days at least) one of them, Tesla may well be, at least in the UK. What that minimum level of sample size is would be down to a mathematician or statistician, whom I'm sure knows their stuff.

Lack of petrols out there - Manatee

What Andy said.

It's only small sample sizes that are really an issue as far as the actual number is concerned. 100 is quite low, but is as likely to overstate as understate the fault rate. When you get to 1000, it shouldn't be a significant problem.

Warranty Direct usually exclude small sample sizes from their stats, as would anybody who knew what they were doing, but I'm not sure where they set the cut off.

A rate is a rate, and once you have a decent sample then it becomes comparable as far as numbers go.

Type of use, age, customer expectations, all introduce possible skews but they would affect any sample size.

Edited by Manatee on 19/08/2017 at 11:31

Lack of petrols out there - RichT54

Are the faults weighted? or does a piece of trim falling off equal a short circuit in the glove box burning the whole vehicle to the ground?

Lack of petrols out there - Sofa Spud
Just changed job and now only doing 6000 miles a year commuting. Drive a 320d m sport on a 63 plate which I love but will not need a diesel with new job. Had a look at similar cars (need space) and there are just so few out there. Can't see this huge change to petrol cars only on the roads ever happening?

The change will be towards electrically driven cars - both pure electrics and plug-in hybrids, the latter with petrol or diesel engines driving part-time generators.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 17/08/2017 at 21:14

Lack of petrols out there - veloceman
With reference to Engineer Andy's post.

When you read a road test in one of the many publications we read - they always refer to the cost of servicing.
What it neglects to mention is the frequency of servicing.
Basically you can't win.
You produce a car that needs servicing only once every 2 years and it breaks down or you produce a reliable car but costs twice as much to service.
Lack of petrols out there - jamie745

I've never owned a diesel and personally don't like diesel. I always felt the diesel popularity surge was a misguided con from when the Government started taxing cars according to co2 emissions - they basically bribed the population into buying diesels to save Johnny Polar Bear while ignoring the fact diesels may have lower co2 but they emit higher everything else.

Sensible people always knew it was a con but it took the inevitable VW scandal for most to realise and for politicians to begin admitting their blunder. Diesels by their nature will never be 'clean' in the way regulators have been led to believe is possible, but I don't think this is a major problem because the fact is diesel was never meant for the average passenger car.

Diesel belongs in lorries, buses and vans clocking up six figure mileages every year, not in a Vauxhall Astra going to the office and back. The petrol engine does that job much better. When I was a kid literally nobody drove a diesel car, even my Dad's taxi's ran on 4 Star and since then they've got the lead and most of the sulphur out of petrol which is great - then everyone went and bought lethal carcinogenics instead.

Hopefully the diesel bubble has now burst and people realise there actually is no upside to that horrid noise. Some will talk about mpg but my Jag does about 25 to the gallon and that's what I'm used to, I still doubt I've spent much more on running my car than some people have spent on finance deals for their 1.4 turbo diesel hatchbacks.

Some will say electric cars will take over but I still don't see it, leaving aside the fact this country doesn't produce enough electricity for everyone to have an electric vehicle there's still the issues of millions not parking near where they live, charge point inferstructure, range issues and the sheer cost of the damn things.

Lack of petrols out there - RT

I've never owned a diesel and personally don't like diesel. I always felt the diesel popularity surge was a misguided con from when the Government started taxing cars according to co2 emissions - they basically bribed the population into buying diesels to save Johnny Polar Bear while ignoring the fact diesels may have lower co2 but they emit higher everything else.

Sensible people always knew it was a con but it took the inevitable VW scandal for most to realise and for politicians to begin admitting their blunder. Diesels by their nature will never be 'clean' in the way regulators have been led to believe is possible, but I don't think this is a major problem because the fact is diesel was never meant for the average passenger car.

Diesel belongs in lorries, buses and vans clocking up six figure mileages every year, not in a Vauxhall Astra going to the office and back. The petrol engine does that job much better. When I was a kid literally nobody drove a diesel car, even my Dad's taxi's ran on 4 Star and since then they've got the lead and most of the sulphur out of petrol which is great - then everyone went and bought lethal carcinogenics instead.

Hopefully the diesel bubble has now burst and people realise there actually is no upside to that horrid noise. Some will talk about mpg but my Jag does about 25 to the gallon and that's what I'm used to, I still doubt I've spent much more on running my car than some people have spent on finance deals for their 1.4 turbo diesel hatchbacks.

Some will say electric cars will take over but I still don't see it, leaving aside the fact this country doesn't produce enough electricity for everyone to have an electric vehicle there's still the issues of millions not parking near where they live, charge point inferstructure, range issues and the sheer cost of the damn things.

The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.

The advent of DPFs has eliminated the carcinogenic aspects of diesel - under the current Euro6 we're already at the point were petrols need particulate matter restrictions to keep pace with diesel reductions - under Euro7 many petrols will need DPFs despite their higher exhaust temperatures.

Lack of petrols out there - corax
The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.

Lack of petrols out there - RobJP
The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.

Agreed - for 4 pot diesels. But the V6 (VAG 3.0, 2.7) or BMW straight 6 3.0 diesels are certainly comparable to a big old lazy petrol V8.

I had a 530d loan car a few months ago. Lovely lazy driving style, incredibly smooth and quiet for a diesel, but with monster performance if needed or called upon. 8 speed ZF autobox, cruising at 1500rpm at an indicated 75mph - and doing better than 50mpg whilst doing so (and that's real, not trip computer figures). But plant your foot down, and 0-60 is dismissed in sub-6 seconds, and it's restricted to 155mph. Even in a load of non-motorway driving, it was averaging 40mpg.

Edited by RobJP on 18/08/2017 at 13:20

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy
The massive torque of a turbo-diesel sells itself to drivers once they tried diesel for the reason you outlined. It's like a big American V8 but affordable fuel.

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band. Four cylinder diesels, however modern they may be, won't match that.

Agreed - for 4 pot diesels. But the V6 (VAG 3.0, 2.7) or BMW straight 6 3.0 diesels are certainly comparable to a big old lazy petrol V8.

I had a 530d loan car a few months ago. Lovely lazy driving style, incredibly smooth and quiet for a diesel, but with monster performance if needed or called upon. 8 speed ZF autobox, cruising at 1500rpm at an indicated 75mph - and doing better than 50mpg whilst doing so (and that's real, not trip computer figures). But plant your foot down, and 0-60 is dismissed in sub-6 seconds, and it's restricted to 155mph. Even in a load of non-motorway driving, it was averaging 40mpg.

A former colleague's Jag XF diesel gave similar performance, mpg and a smooth, quiet driving experience for such a big car. To be honest, I was actually quite impressed with a mk2 Focus 1.6TD (diesel-of-doom) I had as a hire car (for work) for the day over 10 years ago (before I owned the Mazda3) - it had very good pick up and I found it more controllable than my petrol-engined Mazda3 at slow speeds, which hates creeping forward in first or being around 10-12mph (screaming in first or lugging in second).

When I got the Mazda from Motorpoint back in 2006, I was dithering between a petrol and diesel (they had both on offer at 20-25% off list with del miles [RHD Euro-imports] only back then) as I was going to be doing 15k+ miles a year at that time. Lucky for me I chose the petrol (no idea about the pitfalls of that engine/type at the time) just because I could get a TS2 petrol instead of a TS diesel for the same price and it had the exterior colour/interior trim combo I wanted.

As others have said, I think big barges will continue for a while to favour diesel engines, especially if they're used for reasonable mileages on faster roads. Trying to source a good'un will still be problematic though. Loads of diesels on sale at Motorpoint at the moment, far more than used to be case, and especially VAG (particularly VWs) cars, for obvious reasons. Seems like everyone is trying to offload their stock of them before all the problems kick in.

Lack of petrols out there - expat

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.

They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.

Lack of petrols out there - RobJP

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.

They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.

You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.

The BMW 530d that I mentioned, on the other hand, you're talking 13p per mile running around, and 10p per mile on the motorway.

Do 20k miles a year, and that's about £3,000 that you aren't spending at the pump.

Lack of petrols out there - expat

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.

They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.

You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.

I have been spoilt living in Australia where fuel is half your prices. For the last 40 years I have been driving big 6 cylinders mostly on long country roads. Regardless of fuel economy I would never touch a modern diesel because any savings could quickly be wiped out by horrendous repair bills. I could be tempted by a 6lt petrol V8 though. ;-)

Lack of petrols out there - corax

The American V8's had instant throttle response, immediate torque, lovely noise, were smooth and had a wide power band.

They were also reliable, long lasting and easy to work on.

You conveniently forget the downside - horrendous fuel economy. 20mpg. With petrol currently (petrolprices.com today's average of 116.8ppl) at £5.30 a gallon, spending 25-30p per mile on fuel isn't very appealling.

The BMW 530d that I mentioned, on the other hand, you're talking 13p per mile running around, and 10p per mile on the motorway.

Do 20k miles a year, and that's about £3,000 that you aren't spending at the pump.

What if you ignore fuel efficiency and government tax on petrol (which is just a result of the overcrowded situation we find ourselves in) and judge each engine on it's merits.

Imagine if you lived in a pleasant world where there were only a few million living in the country and petrol was £1 a gallon.

You step out of your front door, breathe in the fresh morning air and are confronted by two cars, one powered by a turbocharged 6 cylinder diesel, and one with the modern equivalent of the American V8, a 6 litre Chevy LS1 for example.

Which do you go for?

Lack of petrols out there - RT
.

What if you ignore fuel efficiency and government tax on petrol (which is just a result of the overcrowded situation we find ourselves in) and judge each engine on it's merits.

Imagine if you lived in a pleasant world where there were only a few million living in the country and petrol was £1 a gallon.

You step out of your front door, breathe in the fresh morning air and are confronted by two cars, one powered by a turbocharged 6 cylinder diesel, and one with the modern equivalent of the American V8, a 6 litre Chevy LS1 for example.

Which do you go for?

In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.

Lack of petrols out there - RobJP

In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.

For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )

Lack of petrols out there - Engineer Andy

For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )

I remember a rep had one of those - we could hear him coming a mile away with that engine note. For some reason, he (supposedly as he was embarrassed at that) traded it in for a Jeep Cherokee (mid 90s version). Lets hope it wasn't because he wanted a more reliable car...

Lack of petrols out there - John F

In that hypothetical scenario it wouldn't need to be modern, so I'd have a 6.8 pushrod V8 from Crewe.

For me, it'd probably be my old TVR Chimaera - 4.5 V8. It used to rattle windows : )

I pity your neighbours if you had an early start.

I have never understood the popularity of the crude noisy unbalanced thirsty American cross-plane V8 which is so tiresome on a long run in a sports car and requires the sacrifice of so many BHP to smooth and silence it in a saloon. For me, the sophisticated compact VW/Audi 6.0 W12 trounces them all.

Lack of petrols out there - RobJP

Surprising as it may sound, the Chimaera was almost perfectly reliable in the 2 years of my ownership. Maybe it was the regular servicing ... (no, we won't go there on this thread !).

The one and only time it let me down was about 2 weeks into ownership, when I found out that the fuel guage reading a quarter actually meant it was actually running on fumes.

I did about 10,000 miles in it, all told. A decent mileage for a weekend fun car. Including a trip up to and right round the north of Scotland - North Wales to Portpatrick, Plockton (by Kyle of Lochalsh), Ullapool, Durness, Scrabster, a couple of days over on Orkney, Inverness, Peterhead, Dundee, Edinburgh, then back home. It never missed a beat.

And I don't think I'd have owned one if I lived in town. But nearest neighbours being a few hundred yards away out in the country, I wasn't bothered. Enough heavy farm vehicles meant mine certainly wasn't the loudest thing in the area !

Lack of petrols out there - daveyK_UK
Other than the Vauxhall Zafira Tourer, there is a major shortage of petrol 7 seaters.

The shortage is keeping nearly new petrol 7 seater prices high

A case in point, at 1 year old, the Citroen C4 Grand Picasso in 1.2 petrol form is more expensive than the same car in 1.6 diesel form despite the diesel being more expensive to buy when new.

Edited by daveyK_UK on 20/08/2017 at 00:58

Lack of petrols out there - movilogo

The tide is turning against diesel. I think after a year or two, there will be lot more choices in petrols.

 

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