Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - guygamps

Our C Crosser, continues to amaze me, especially since I was not expecting much from, but 5 years since "new to me", it is a pleasure to drive, really, handles ridiculously well, precise gear change, tidy handlling, corners well, no excessive body roll, and amazingly practical, endless university runs (about to start again with younger ones going up), still gets regular use of the small folding 6/7 seats because although all grown up we still like to do things as a family age range 16 - 25), and its better than taking 2 cars despite the compactness, I could go on... suffice to say that it has been a real surprise. (yes I know it is really a Mitsubishi Outlander)

But most of the time mrs g is using it as her daily commute, it is really rather big, heavy and thirsty for that, and it' s a diesel, we would love to get away from Diesel. Whislt we still need something big ehnough to support university runs to halls and back, something just a notch smaller would be and we could probably give up on seats 6/7. Wanting to get away from diesel but still wanting to enjoy the practicalities of an SUV, I have been interested in the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid, but feel set down by the UK motoring media including HJ who haven't really given it (specifically the Rav 4 hybrid) the time of day.

Real MPG is a despectable low 40s (most of the time the C Crosser gets less than 30, in fact to be truthful really mid 20s except for on long motorway runs which it sees only a dozen or so times a year) SUV's are massively popular, but generally diesel, and we all know Diesel is NOT the future therefore you would think a Hybrid SUV whould get plenty of attention.

But I can't see a review of the Hybrid Rav 4 on HJ? and when googled it, I found Autoexpress review gave it 2 stars with a summary "Unless you’re a die-hard hybrid fan or need to save a few pounds on your Benefit in Kind bills, then the conventional diesel RAV4 makes more sense than the petrol-electric model" NO!, it doesn't... what if you want to get away from Diesel? I am not a die hard hybrid fan (i've never had one) but I want to know how it performs in that specific context. I like the fact that apparently it can do first mile on 100% electric, I want to know more... a run to our local station is 4.5 miles round trip, how will it perform on that when dropping off and picking up our teenagers? the C Crosser is terribly thirsty on such short trips.

getting only 2 stars out of 5 makes me wonder if the autoexpress team know why such a car is even on the market?

How about HJ, come on HJ please review it, i really trust your rviews. On the wider topic, presuming the UK buyers love affairs with SUVs continues, I would love to see HJ cover the topic of what we should consider if we want to move away from Diesel? what choices are out there? how do they compare?

thoughts?

Edited by guygamps on 01/08/2017 at 19:19

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Manatee

My Outlander diesel auto (TC, not DCT) has averaged 39.6mpg over 4400 miles so far, properly measured.

The third row seats are much better than the deck chairs in the previous model.

If you really don't want a diesel and fancy a hybrid, what about an Outlander PHEV?

The Outlander is non-mainstream but as you like aspects of the C-Crosser, I thought it worth a mention.

The second row seat fold is different now - rather than the whole seat rolling forward, the squab goes forward and the backs go flat. This gives a higher floor - the boot floor is higher because of the better third row seats but it results in a flat load bed and slightly longer than before,

Firs Garage had/have some pre-reg or late ones (diesel and PHEV).

www.firs-garage.com/used

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - badbusdriver

Your outlander diesel, I believe, uses the VW 2.0 diesel, so it possibly will be more efficient than the 2.2 diesel in the citroen (and Peugeot). Nonetheless, less than 30mpg is pretty horrific!.

I average around 40mpg with my transit connect van, and I start my working day with it approaching its 2.3 ton gvw!.

There aren't much options for hybrid SUV's of that size, just the rav4, outlander phev and the Kia Nero. They all suffer from the same problem, weight. The battery pack alone in the phev weighs half a ton, and I'm guessing the other 2 will be similar.

I read a US review of the rav4 hybrid which scored it 8/10, but they still mentioned the mid range acceleration being poor due to a combination of the weight, lack of torque and cvt gearbox.

Honest John's review of the phev is not exactly glowing (weight, difficulty in managing the electric only range and lack of refinement, especially when the petrol engine kicks in), but the 'real mpg' suggests you will get mid 50's mpg. Some way short of the 125 or so mpg quoted by the manufacturer(!), but quite a bit more than you currently get!.

Also, bear in mind, the real mpg section of this website suggests the petrol rav4.(cvt) will do 30mpg. Another alternative would be something like a skoda yeti or vw tiguan with a small turbo petrol, which should easily manage 40+mpg. Just be wary if you need auto as anything VAG will have a DSG gearbox.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - oldroverboy.

Skoda superb estate 1.4 tsi.. ask skidpan...( I think he has the saloon)

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Manatee

Your outlander diesel, I believe, uses the VW 2.0 diesel,

No, they haven't used those for many years - pre-2007 I think in the really ugly Mk1. It's a Mitsubishi 4N14 without the MIVEC that the previous version had. 2368cc, 150PS, low compression diesel. The MIVEC version had 175 but was no faster in the <3000rpm range which is where anyone sensible drives it.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - SLO76

Your outlander diesel, I believe, uses the VW 2.0 diesel,

No, they haven't used those for many years - pre-2007 I think in the really ugly Mk1. It's a Mitsubishi 4N14 without the MIVEC that the previous version had. 2368cc, 150PS, low compression diesel. The MIVEC version had 175 but was no faster in the <3000rpm range which is where anyone sensible drives it.

The 2.0 diesel in the Mk II was a VAG unit but the 2.2 diesel was a PSA unit. The Mk I Outlander never came with a diesel which killed its UK sales.
Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - guygamps

The C Crossed and Outlanders of same period along with Peugeot 4007, all use the Citroen 2.2 God, it only ever does better than 30 mpg on long motorway runs, the current Outland3r is too big, we don't need something that size any more, can scale down a notch. Perhaps sacrifice seats 6 and 7.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Manatee

My 2011 Mk 2 Outlander had a MIVEC version of the 4N14. Prior to that the Mk 2 had the PSA 2.2 engine. I can't state with certainty that it never had a VAG engine but I don't believe it did.

In 2011 the auto in the Outlander was the SST DCT from the Evo. That is why I didn't buy the auto in 2011. Currently in the Mk3 it is a Jatco 6 speed with torque converter, designated W6AJA by Mitsubishi, essentially the Jatco JF613E. The engine is still a 4N14 but Mitsubishi has dropped the variable valve timing and the rated power, without, in practical terms, any detriment to performance.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Engineer Andy

Wanting to get away from diesel but still wanting to enjoy the practicalities of an SUV, I have been interested in the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid, but feel set down by the UK motoring media including HJ who haven't really given it (specifically the Rav 4 hybrid) the time of day.

How about HJ, come on HJ please review it, i really trust your rviews. On the wider topic, presuming the UK buyers love affairs with SUVs continues, I would love to see HJ cover the topic of what we should consider if we want to move away from Diesel? what choices are out there? how do they compare?

thoughts?

I suspect that, given its poor reception generally, the hybrid version hasn't attracted many sales, and so HJ and other reviewers will spend their limited time road-testing other cars. That being said, the very similar Lexus NX 2.5 hybrid has been reviewed (if not road tested officially) on HJ (only the 2.0t has), so at least you can get something from that as regards the driving experience; everything else can be gleened from the facts and figures or the Rav 4 general road test/review (interior, looks, etc). I wouldn't count on any HJ road test for the time being.

It doesn't look like they are a fan of the NX 2.5 hybrid with its whiny CVT, probably because its underpowered and the gearbox isn't suited to anything other than tootling around at low speed. Very few small and mid-size non-diesel SUVs about that don't have twin-clutch /CVT auto boxes, and those that do (Mazda CX-3 and CX-5 with standard TC boxes) are better to drive but aren't anywhere near as good (the CX-3 is reasonable, but its not really that big) on mpg as the manual versions and definitely not as the diesels.

Your best bet may be a one of more reliable small-engined turbo petrols, such as the VAG 1.4 ltr ACT (150bhp) or latest 1.5 ltr variant, or perhaps its 2 ltr cousin (180 or 210bhp forms), which for engines with a decent amount of poke (including torque) have very good mpg in comparison to normally-aspirated petrol engines with similar power. Those of other makes are either less reliable and fuel efficient (Ford ecoBoost [same engines in Volvos], Renault/Nissan) or still quite new (Kia/Hyundai/Honda). Not sure about the TSi type engines for the likes of Mercedes and BMW, but neither make decent 'real' off-roader SUVs that work well on road (the X3 and X5 are on-road cars only IMO) in my opinion; HJ seems to rate highly the 1.2 Puretec in the PSA cars and the 1.4 boosterjet (140PS) in the Suzuki Vitara, whether their larger PSA 1.6 is any good, I'm not sure. The Suzuki does come in auto form, though the facts and figures page is unclear whether its a TC or other type of gearbox.

Looks like if you want a hybrid SUV (of any size), its an unreliable twin-clutch gearbox or reliable-but slow and whiny CVT only. Apparently Mazda will be introducing a hybrid car in the next year or two (if I recall correctly), but I have no idea what auto box it'll have or which car it'll be based on, though the likelihood is either the 3, 6 or CX-5.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - SLO76
The RAV4 would be a good replacement for what you have now, in fact I looked carefully at them when I bought our last family wagon but eventually settled on a new Honda CRV 1.6 DTEC because of its superior space.

I did notice the real life economy was vastly superior to the Hybrid Toyota too (we get 56mpg average with 65mpg plus possible on longer runs) which really is hard to justify paying much of a premium for. According to the real life mpg on this site it's barely 5mpg better day to day than the much simpler and cheaper 2.0 petrol CVT but admittedly it is substantially faster. However I wouldn't be buying a CVT or Hybrid if I were looking for performance. Driven smoothly they're reliable and soothing but driven with enthusiasm and they quickly become tiresome.

I know you don't want to go Diesel but wish to stick with an SUV but do you really need an automatic? If not then the VW Tiguan is a good option with the 1.4 TSi petrol engine if you're buying new or nearly new. It's much nicer to drive and on the road it'll be better on fuel than the Toyota Hybrid in most situations with the exception of local town runs. I wouldn't touch one with a DSG box though but the manual is fine and it'll hold its money better than a Hybrid RAV4.

To be honest a lot of it comes down to budget. How much do you want to spend here?

Autocar were a bit more positive in their review of it than sister mag Auto Express. www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/rav4

There's also a new Honda CRV due shortly with the excellent new 1.5 turbo petrol from the Civic. www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/cr-v/97872/new-honda-c...w

Edited by SLO76 on 01/08/2017 at 21:07

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - guygamps

Actually prefer a manual gearbox, our c crossed is manual, a Tiguan with 1.4 Fri is interesting idea.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Manatee

The CRV sounds worth considering. The 2.2 i-CTDI was not economical - in manual form I struggled to get 40mpg. It sounds as if the 1.6 DTEC is much better from that point of view.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - SLO76

The CRV sounds worth considering. The 2.2 i-CTDI was not economical - in manual form I struggled to get 40mpg. It sounds as if the 1.6 DTEC is much better from that point of view.

It's a great engine. Fantastic on fuel, very little turbo lag, pulls surprisingly well and quick revving for a diesel. But as with most though SUV's it's no fun to drive. Great big family wagon though.
Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - badbusdriver

Just done some research and it seems the mk2 outlander had the 2.0 VAG engine until Dec 2009, then they used the 2.2 PSA unit. I didn't realise it was for such a short period. But I seem to remember adverts at the time stating it was the most efficient car in its class (with the VAG engine). And while the, 'visually challenging' mk1 was only officially available in this country with petrol engines, I think versions from other markets could be had with a 2.0 turbo diesel and automatic gearbox.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - guygamps

the availability of the identical (to an Outlander) Citroen C Crosser (which is mine) and Peugeot 4007, was due to the deal with PSA to take the 2.2 HDI engine to replace the VAG 2.0 one that was not well received. As I wrote at top, the Citroen is fine car, but just a tad too big and heavy and thirsty, and if replacing it, we would not want a diesel.

So far a good recommendation if the 1.4TFSI from VAG group found in the Tiguan, in terms of budget ideally I would be looking for something thats been around long enough to find a 2 or 3 year high spec example, under £15k.

I would worry though that the 1.4TFSI would be underpowered when the car is full and ona long run....

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - SLO76
"I would worry though that the 1.4TFSI would be underpowered when the car is full and ona long run...."

Call for Skidpan.. skidpan to the phone please.
Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Manatee

I stand corrected. I thought gb had had a diesel Mk 1 but maybe it was one of his gas conversions

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - gordonbennet

I stand corrected. I thought gb had had a diesel Mk 1 but maybe it was one of his gas conversions

Correct, it was indeed supplied new with LPG, what killed them was the VED changes, from March 06 every one of those 2.4 Outlanders went into top VED bracket.

Ugly it was in spades, but it was in Subaru territory for handling on rough and country roads, wherever you pointed the steering it just went regardless of surface, ultimately though even with LPG it just didn't give enough bang for the buck, SWMBO Outback H6 (LPG) is better on fuel and goes like hell.

I delivered lots of the early mk 2 Outlanders as well as the C Crosser and 4007 of similar years, the Mitsi had noticeably less torque than the 2.2 PSA unit and was annoyingly very easy to stall compared to the PSA unit.

The fuel of economy of Guygamp' C Cross is amazing, thats no better than my 3.0 D4D auto Landcruiser, a vehicle not exactly noted for frugality.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - Avant

Looking at your needs (and Mrs G's in particular) - manual; a bit smaller than the C-Crosser - petrol - not underpowered - I'd look at the Octavia 1.4 TSI estate. We know from Skidpan and others that the 1.4 Superb isn't underpowered, so the Octavia certianly won't be. The estate is no longer than the hatch, and the luggage space is more usable: some people have noticed road noise on Octavias, which I suspect depends on what sort of tyres it has on.

If you want to be higher up, and the Kodiaq is too big, have a look at the Suzuki Vitara. Depending on budget, you might be able to get one (Vitara S) with the fairly new 1.4 petrol turbo.

Citroen C Crosser 2.2 HDi (currently) - replacing a diesel SUV ? with what? - guygamps

Thanks

 

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