Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - veloceman
I notice the price of diesel cars has dropped significantly.
Not only has the premium on list price been wiped out but many are now cheaper than the petrol equivalent.
Especially 1-2 yr old models. Granted these are not Euro 6. But at this age you get the benefit of warranty, mpg and torque AND pay less.
A win win maybe?
Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - oldroverboy.

The price of the used car is reflecting the risk, and somewhere there may well be expensive problems... along the line.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

I notice the price of diesel cars has dropped significantly.
Not only has the premium on list price been wiped out but many are now cheaper than the petrol equivalent.

Well that is not the case with the Skoda. The diesel Superb 150 PS is £920 more expensive than the petrol 150PS. Withe Octavia the 150 PS diesel is £1800 more than the petrol 150 PS.

So for private motorists such as us going back to a diesel is still not an option. The break even mileage on the Superb is still over 40,000 miles (double that on the Octavia) and with the risk of DPF issues @ 8000 miles a year it would be a mad decision especially when the petrol is a better drive (IMHO).

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - nellyjak
I notice the price of diesel cars has dropped significantly. Not only has the premium on list price been wiped out but many are now cheaper than the petrol equivalent. Especially 1-2 yr old models. Granted these are not Euro 6. But at this age you get the benefit of warranty, mpg and torque AND pay less. A win win maybe?

Maybe...but sadly you would be still driving a diseasel...!!

As you might guess...I'm not a diseasel fan and never have been.

I think it's the greatest scam and myth that has ever been perpetrated on the motoring public.

,...and the truth is now becoming clear with the antics of such manufacturers as VW...!!

Diesel was for lorries and buses etc...it should have stayed that way.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT
Especially 1-2 yr old models. Granted these are not Euro 6.

Euro 6 became mandatory 1st September 2014 - so 1-2 year-old cars will definitely be Euro 6, as will most 3 year-olds.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

But at this age you get the benefit of warranty, mpg and torque AND pay less.
A win win maybe?

Point by point

Warranty. It will not cover DPF issues unless its a DPF manufacturing fault. Block it through missuse and expect a £1000+ bill.

MPG. Compare a modern diesel to an old school 2 litre petrol and they do have a major mpg advantage. Our last N/A petrol with sufficient power did 33 mpg, the Superb with another 25 PS and a good deal more weight does about 45 mpg. The diesel 150 PS Superb will do about 53 mpg in the csame circumstances. So what was a 60% advantage is now a 17% advantage.

Torque. As a diesel owner for 19 years I am fully aware that they have more torque but its over a much smaller rev range. In some cases it comes as a big lump and then goes away as fast as it arrives. With the VAG TSi the torque is spread over a much wider rev range and with the greater rev range available with a petrol engine the actual difference is hardly massive. In truth I prefer the charisterisics of the TSi and did from the moment I first drove it. At that time I had a 2 litre BMW turbo diesel which was without a doubt the .best turbo diesel I had owned.

Pay less. See post above.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Craggyislander
Especially 1-2 yr old models. Granted these are not Euro 6.

Euro 6 became mandatory 1st September 2014 - so 1-2 year-old cars will definitely be Euro 6, as will most 3 year-olds.

Not quite - Euro 6 was applied to all new cars from 1st Sept 2015 (65 plate). My 15 plate Focus diesel is a Euro 5, registered 1st March 2015.

Edited by Craggyislander on 25/07/2017 at 15:34

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT
Especially 1-2 yr old models. Granted these are not Euro 6.

Euro 6 became mandatory 1st September 2014 - so 1-2 year-old cars will definitely be Euro 6, as will most 3 year-olds.

Not quite - Euro 6 was applied to all new cars from 1st Sept 2015 (65 plate). My 15 plate Focus diesel is a Euro 5, registered 1st March 2015.

Euro 6 applied to all new Type Approvals from September 2014 - but unchanged Type Approved Euro 5 could be sold until August 2015 - there's always a bit of overlap.

In reality, any car younger that 1 year 11 months will be Euro 6 - and a number of brands/models went to Euro 6 early.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Firmbutfair
You may well be right but unfortunately the demonisation of all Diesel engined vehicles has been very successful, not only in the uk but globally, with many civic/government authorities banning or planning to ban the driving of diesel vehicles in city centres. Any private purchaser of a diesel now will need to consider keeping it for the long term as depreciation will be higher than for alternatives such as petrol, hybrid and electric etc.

However there is still more to be revealed about the unfavourable emission characteristics of the increasingly popular gasoline direct injection engines re particulates etc so in time they will probably be demonised too.

Maybe the best solution is a return to mass commuting by bicycle and more working form home or from local tele-commuting centres.

Edited by Firmbutfair on 20/07/2017 at 09:57

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - badbusdriver

"local tele-commuting centres"?

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - nellyjak
You may well be right but unfortunately the demonisation of all Diesel engined vehicles has been very successful, not only in the uk but globally, with many civic/government authorities banning or planning to ban the driving of diesel vehicles in city centres. Any private purchaser of a diesel now will need to consider keeping it for the long term as depreciation will be higher than for alternatives such as petrol, hybrid and electric etc. However there is still more to be revealed about the unfavourable emission characteristics of the increasingly popular gasoline direct injection engines re particulates etc so in time they will probably be demonised too. Maybe the best solution is a return to mass commuting by bicycle and more working form home or from local tele-commuting centres.

Indeed, times they are a changing.!

But let's start with diesel..lol...no matter how much you try to refine them, you are always basically trying to polish a turd.!

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - FP

"...you are always basically trying to polish a turd.!"

That's not how many diesel drivers see it. They love the torque, the lack of gear-changing and the economy. When I drove a Peugeot 306 HDi I absolutely loved it; it was totally reliable, went round corners as if glued to the road and returned 53 mpg no matter what the driving conditions. That was a car without DPF, though it did have a cat.

Then I switched to petrol to avoid the complexity and expensive maintenance that came with the next generation of diesels. I was pleased with the Ford Focus 2-litre, which usually managed around 40 mpg.

My current Mazda CX-5 2-litre I'm even more impressed with, but when I was at the dealers negotiating to buy it, I noticed they had publicity material pushing the case for diesel. (OK, you may feel that Mazda, with their reputation with diesels, need to work especially hard in this respect.)

Now I read that the new CX-5 will be made available in diesel form in the USA. "... it will offer the SKYACTIV-D 2.2 clean diesel engine in the all-new Mazda CX-5 for North America from the second half of 2017. It will be Mazda's first diesel engine model in the North American market." (from Mazda's website)

I don't believe Mazda would make a decision like this lightly. Somebody, somewhere, believes that there is a future for diesel. Only a short-term future, I think.

Edited by FP on 20/07/2017 at 10:34

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

My current Mazda CX-5 2-litre I'm even more impressed with, but when I was at the dealers negotiating to buy it, I noticed they had publicity material pushing the case for diesel.

As people will know I was not a fan of the Mazda petrol when I tried it in the 6 but before we ordered the Superb I still wanted to try the CX5 petrol. Went along to our local dealer who told me that the diesel and petrol engine were identical and drove exactly the same so no need to try the petrol, just order one. I told him I had driven the petrol 6 and was not convinced so would like to try the petrol CX5. He told me they did not sell any, never had, did not have one and I would have to go elsewhere to try one. So I went home, looked on Autotrader for a petrol CX5 within 50 miles and several came up. Nearest was 7 miles away at the dealer I had just left. 2 years old, 15,000 miles. Rang them up and it was available to drive.

But I thought back to how poor I found the 145 PS in the 6 (compared to the 1.4 TSi 140 PS in the Leon) and decided that the 165 PS in the CX5 (with the same torque in a heavier car) would be little (if any) better so no point wasting my time.

One week later drove the Superb 1.4 TSi at the garage across the road and orderd one.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Nomag

The original poster makes a very good point, and one which I have made on here before.

Not meaning to be rude Skidpan, but the poster is refering to USED prices not new. Diesels remain at a premium new, however, the poster is quite correct that presumably due to "dieselgate" used diesel prices seem to be on a par or dipping lower than petrol equivalents.

I personally intend to take advantage of this imminently. I think there has been a lot of scaremongering about diesel. Providing you cover sufficient mileage, problems with the "emissions equipment" should not arise until 80-90k miles at which point I woudl be disposing of the car anyway.

I am seriously considering a used Leon. At 1-2 years old, similar mileage there is no difference in price between the 1.4 TSi and 2.0 184 TDI. However, real mpg suggests at least a 5mpg advantage in the diesel, possibly more. The fuel costs are roughly the same and have been for some time. For my money and 16k miles a year I will take the diesel and take my chances!

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

The original poster makes a very good point, and one which I have made on here before.

Not meaning to be rude Skidpan, but the poster is refering to USED prices not new. Diesels remain at a premium new, however, the poster is quite correct that presumably due to "dieselgate" used diesel prices seem to be on a par or dipping lower than petrol equivalents.

I personally intend to take advantage of this imminently. I think there has been a lot of scaremongering about diesel. Providing you cover sufficient mileage, problems with the "emissions equipment" should not arise until 80-90k miles at which point I woudl be disposing of the car anyway.

I am seriously considering a used Leon. At 1-2 years old, similar mileage there is no difference in price between the 1.4 TSi and 2.0 184 TDI. However, real mpg suggests at least a 5mpg advantage in the diesel, possibly more. The fuel costs are roughly the same and have been for some time. For my money and 16k miles a year I will take the diesel and take my chances!

We've just done something similar with my son's "new" car - he and I, independently, determined that a 1-2 year-old Scoda Octavia Estate was what he needed - and although we courted the idea of a 1.4TSi, we opted for a 2.0TDi - both 150PS.

It's Euro 6 so will be the last to be hit by any city centre diesel surcharges.

It should be noted that as buyers, in general, switch back to petrol - that'll push the price of petrol up as refineries can't suddenly make more nor cheaply import more - the same happened in reverse when diesel car sales boomed, the price of diesel was more than petrol. Changing a refinery's split between petrol and diesel involves a redesign, something like a 10-year project cycle.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

I hold the car makers responsible for the current problems, they have brought it on themselves. They failed to use the technology available to them to produce clean cars. Short term gain, arrogance and competitive advantage won out. Cheating was easyer.

Diesel is going nowhere for many years yet, it cant, commerce runs on it and there are no alternatives on the horizon for vans, trucks or trains. Small private cars are already unviable for diesel engines and that may continue up the scale but for bigger heavy vehicles diesel will be hear for a long time yet.

Anyway why should diesel not be around, it will soon be as clean as petrol, even the notorious DPF problems and fuel in the oil problems are quickly going into the history books. I see it myself between the two EURO 5 diesels Ive owned, a 2010 and a late 2014 both monitored with an OBD device. If my car maintained its current DPF use it will be good for well over 300K miles and it virtually cant get fuel in the oil no matter what you do..It regenerates more frequently but at much lower speeds and much quicker, normal non motorway driving is all thats needed. If diesel dies it will be due to cost nothing else.

If we all switch to petrol Europe will break every climate agreement it has made.

Diesel is dead long live diesel

Edited by Stanb Sevento on 20/07/2017 at 12:01

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - corax

I hold the car makers responsible for the current problems, they have brought it on themselves. They failed to use the technology available to them to produce clean cars.

What technology? You mean hybrid?

Anyway why should diesel not be around, it will soon be as clean as petrol, even the notorious DPF problems and fuel in the oil problems are quickly going into the history books.

You think diesels are becoming more reliable?

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - badbusdriver

Skidpan mentioned earlier about turbo diesels delivering all the power in one big lump. This reminded me of an interesting comparison I had in about 2003 while working in a VW dealership. I had to drive a passat 1.9 tdi (4 cyl, 130bhp) to Aberdeen from Peterhead (32 miles), then take a passat 2.5tdi (V6, 150bhp) back to Peterhead. The 1.9 felt much quicker off the mark and it did seem to deliver all its power aggressively over a short rev range. The 2.5 however, delivered its power more like a particularly muscular n/a petrol, with a much wider power band (along with a lovely cultured snarl!) . It was just getting into its stride when the 1.9 was all done.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

Not meaning to be rude Skidpan, but the poster is refering to USED prices not new.

Here we go again. Just because I buy new along comes another poster who seems to be saying my post is irrelevant.

I am seriously considering a used Leon. At 1-2 years old, similar mileage there is no difference in price between the 1.4 TSi and 2.0 184 TDI. However, real mpg suggests at least a 5mpg advantage in the diesel, possibly more. The fuel costs are roughly the same and have been for some time. For my money and 16k miles a year I will take the diesel and take my chances!

Done some checking in our area and that is true in one respect but not in another. The used petrol and diesel cars do appear to be a similar price but the petrols all appear to have a higher spec and the diesels have about double the mileage. I would have thought 5 mpg is pretty close to reality, our 1.4 TSi 140 PS averaged 45 mpg for 4 years and the Honest John "real" figure for the 184 PS diesel is about 50 mpg. But a TSi of the age you are discussing will have the 150 PS ACT engine and I am sure based on my experience with the Superb it would better the 45 mpg I used to get, the Superb is doing that. So I would expect 47 mpg from the 150 PS petrol

Doing 16,000 miles a year I would estimate your saving would be approx £120 a year.

But that would soon be wiped out if you had a single DPF issue (eg a forced regen) and remember that DPF's are not covered under any warranty.

And before you decide drive a TSi 150 PS and TDI 184 PS back to back. Pretty sure you will have a hard choice.

Edited by skidpan on 20/07/2017 at 19:31

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

What technology? You mean hybrid?

No I was referring more to the emissions hardware used. It has been perfectly possible to build euro5 diesels without the need to cheat for a good few years before the present scandal but they chose not to use it.

You think diesels are becoming more reliable?

Im sure some are. The traditional problems like DPF and EGR in VAG cars will diminish a lot, but evey make does its own thing, even yet some are reluctant to fit SCR systems because of the cost. Vag retro fitting software to a million cars will not help at all. Cars at the design stage now Im suse will be great but ecpensive. SCR is the only system that has been found to work on commertial vehicles.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - corax
Im sure some are. The traditional problems like DPF and EGR in VAG cars will diminish a lot, but evey make does its own thing, even yet some are reluctant to fit SCR systems because of the cost. Vag retro fitting software to a million cars will not help at all. Cars at the design stage now Im suse will be great but ecpensive. SCR is the only system that has been found to work on commertial vehicles.

I suppose that if there was a better infrastructure for urea supply then it would reduce in price. As far as I'm aware it was always pretty expensive when it came to refill time. But if it ensured that the engine had a more reliable form of emissions control then I wouldn't mine shelling out. I heard that some refills were costing £500-1000.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT
Im sure some are. The traditional problems like DPF and EGR in VAG cars will diminish a lot, but evey make does its own thing, even yet some are reluctant to fit SCR systems because of the cost. Vag retro fitting software to a million cars will not help at all. Cars at the design stage now Im suse will be great but ecpensive. SCR is the only system that has been found to work on commertial vehicles.

I suppose that if there was a better infrastructure for urea supply then it would reduce in price. As far as I'm aware it was always pretty expensive when it came to refill time. But if it ensured that the engine had a more reliable form of emissions control then I wouldn't mine shelling out. I heard that some refills were costing £500-1000.

Adblue is 70p/litre at pump price - VW Group dealers will refill for £1.50/litre including labour - my 3.0TDi gets about 600 miles/litre so the Adblue costs between 0.1167p/mile and 0.25p/mile depending on how it's bought.

44-tonne HGVs use a lot of Adblue, as well as a lot of diesel, but I can't imagine any car owner paying £1000 to top-up the Adblue, more like £10.

Edited by RT on 21/07/2017 at 13:02

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

I suppose that if there was a better infrastructure for urea supply then it would reduce in price. As far as I'm aware it was always pretty expensive when it came to refill time. But if it ensured that the engine had a more reliable form of emissions control then I wouldn't mine shelling out. I heard that some refills were costing £500-1000.

I think thats a different liquid. In the early days of DPFs some car makers, mainly French I think used a liquid catalyst that was injected into the filter. It reduced the temperature required to burn off soot down to normal exhauset gas temperatures. The tank that came with the car lasted something like 75K miles but cost £500+ to refill.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - corax

I think thats a different liquid. In the early days of DPFs some car makers, mainly French I think used a liquid catalyst that was injected into the filter. It reduced the temperature required to burn off soot down to normal exhauset gas temperatures. The tank that came with the car lasted something like 75K miles but cost £500+ to refill.

Yes, I was looking at the pro's and con's of SCR/EGR but the website was dated 2008. The game has moved on since then.

Interesting that someone further up commented that Mazda are pushing diesel in North America. Given their reputation for previous engines and their indifference towards owners in this country, they better make sure that they work because America's attitude towards customers is very different.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Engineer Andy

I hold the car makers responsible for the current problems, they have brought it on themselves. They failed to use the technology available to them to produce clean cars. Short term gain, arrogance and competitive advantage won out. Cheating was easyer.

Diesel is going nowhere for many years yet, it cant, commerce runs on it and there are no alternatives on the horizon for vans, trucks or trains. Small private cars are already unviable for diesel engines and that may continue up the scale but for bigger heavy vehicles diesel will be hear for a long time yet.

Anyway why should diesel not be around, it will soon be as clean as petrol, even the notorious DPF problems and fuel in the oil problems are quickly going into the history books. I see it myself between the two EURO 5 diesels Ive owned, a 2010 and a late 2014 both monitored with an OBD device. If my car maintained its current DPF use it will be good for well over 300K miles and it virtually cant get fuel in the oil no matter what you do..It regenerates more frequently but at much lower speeds and much quicker, normal non motorway driving is all thats needed. If diesel dies it will be due to cost nothing else.

If we all switch to petrol Europe will break every climate agreement it has made.

Diesel is dead long live diesel

Whilst there is some traction in the argument that the latest generation car diesel engines are far less polluting than thervious generations and actually meet the EU standards (or least to the same degree that petrol or hybrid cars do), the case for mass ownership of diesel-powered cars is still wrong, as most people just don't do the annual mileage (even if that's via infrequent longer trips that doesn't damaged the engine etc) to justify the extra expense of buying them and, at least for those owners who'll but cars over 5yo, extra maintenance costs over the more (but not all) petrol-engined models, or they do low annual mileages and/or a almost always short trips, which does damage the engines and emissions-related components and can cost a fortune in repairs.

As I've said on several occasions, its a horse-for-courses deal - petrol hybrids should be bought for those doing short trips and/or mainly urban driving, diesels for high annual mileage and/or reasonable mileage and longer trips and lots of lugging heavy loads (2 kids don't count), and petrol-only for in between, with variants of car and engine size and type (e.g. smal engined petrol-turbos) to suit the load and performance requirements and location/reliability.

As the public (hopefully) become more aware of issues and problems associated with each type of car and make and developments in technology, it means they make more informed choices, as, I would hope, politicians would do in the light of scientific research being made available and them not (as some people are, including on this forum) going to extremes of saying 'diesel is dead' and the opposite or how brilliant/rubbish diesel cars are.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

I can't share Andy's optimistic hope that the general public will make better-informed decisions - they'll go along with fashion, hype and media outrage, so no logic at all.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Engineer Andy

I can't share Andy's optimistic hope that the general public will make better-informed decisions - they'll go along with fashion, hype and media outrage, so no logic at all.

I'm trying not to be Mr. glass-half-empty for once! After all, it is Friday! ;-)

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Avant

Great post, Andy, although I'm sure RT is right that it'll take some doing for the public to be better-informed - like the Arthur Punters of this world who have got it into their head that diesel engines are more reliable, and is persuaded by his family to go for a diesel M-Sport BMW because they see one in that fetching shade of cornflower blue.:

I sympathise to some extent: I know a bit about cars but if I were to try to buy a racehorse (I never will), I would be starting from a position of total ignorance except that they come in a rather restricted variety of boring colours, like the Hyundai i10. But I hope I'd have the sense to do some research into what it could offer compared with what I needed it for, as well as how much I could afford.

The Press could do a lot more: if everybody drove the appropriate car for their needs, it would surely reduce emissions.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Manatee

I don't accept I need to do 20,000 miles a year to merit a diesel. SInce mid 2012 I have done only 8,000-9,000 miles a year, and that resulted in zero problems with the Euro 5 Outlander 2.3 diesel up to March this year, when I bought a Euro 6 replacement. So far, so good.

I do tend to use either my old MX5 or our petrol Roomster if I'm only going 3 miles into the nearby town, but I don't worry about it.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

I don't accept I need to do 20,000 miles a year to merit a diesel. SInce mid 2012 I have done only 8,000-9,000 miles a year, and that resulted in zero problems with the Euro 5 Outlander 2.3 diesel up to March this year, when I bought a Euro 6 replacement. So far, so good.

I do tend to use either my old MX5 or our petrol Roomster if I'm only going 3 miles into the nearby town, but I don't worry about it.

I'm only doing 10,000 miles a year - but a non-typical pattern - I'm retired so no regular commute, the mileage being made up of a couple of very short runs in the week for shopping and then long hard runs every couple of weeks. No problems with the DPF/EGR on the previous diesel nor expecting them on this one.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

: If everybody drove the appropriate car for their needs, it would surely reduce emissions.

I have a problem with that, not the idea but the practicalities of it. For ages I have been trying to pin down where the boundary is between petrol and diesel. I like many would be happy with a petrol car much of the time but there are a lot of occasions where diesel is the better choice. Twice a year I have trips in Scotland doing 1000 miles in a week and three or four doing 500, the rest of the time its local 10-15 mile type runs. The long trips account for half my annual mileage. Big heavy car loaded to 2 1/4 ton on long trips empty on local trips So should I have a petrol or diesel?

Also on the emissions side I never drive in cities, well an occasional mile or two, and on the open road NOx is not any real issue, and the only petrol version of my car uses a lot more fuel and still struggles with the load.

Im into cars and have at least some grasp of the issues but Im still in a dilemma.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - corax

Keep the diesel, use a Kenlowe hot start for the short runs ;-)

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

Keep the diesel, use a Kenlowe hot start for the short runs ;-)

Well worth it - I have the luxury of a remote-controlled diesel parking heater on my Touareg and despite the fact that it burns diesel out of the car's normal tank, it improves my overall fuel consumption in winter - by reducing the warm-up time everything is at normal temperature within about a mile.

Many diesels just don't fully warm up in winter because the cabin is absorbing all the excess heat from the engine - which is so much less than a petrol.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Avant

What sort of car do you have Stanb?

I agree the choice may not be straightforward: a seemingly average annual mileage could be frequent short journeys or fewer but longer ones; or a mixture like yours.

It's also complicated by the characterics of different engines. The VW TSI engines are almost as economical as the corresponding diesels, but others - Honda, Mini and Volvo spring to mind - have less torquey petrol engines which need a heavier right foot to make good progress, with the expected penalty in fuel consumption.

I think there's fairly general agreement that the bigger the car, the more a diesel is worth considering (although not a shoo-in - look at the petrol Skoda Superb). If yours is loaded up to over 2 tons I presume it's a big car. For your particular needs, you may well have got it right having a diesel.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

What sort of car do you have Stanb?

I agree the choice may not be straightforward: a seemingly average annual mileage could be frequent short journeys or fewer but longer ones; or a mixture like yours.

It's also complicated by the characterics of different engines. The VW TSI engines are almost as economical as the corresponding diesels, but others - Honda, Mini and Volvo spring to mind - have less torquey petrol engines which need a heavier right foot to make good progress, with the expected penalty in fuel consumption.

I think there's fairly general agreement that the bigger the car, the more a diesel is worth considering (although not a shoo-in - look at the petrol Skoda Superb). If yours is loaded up to over 2 tons I presume it's a big car. For your particular needs, you may well have got it right having a diesel.

Skoda Superb is a big car - but very light - the 1.4TSi has a kerbweight of just 1,300kg, that's down in Focus territory

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

What sort of car do you have Stanb?

It's a Sharan SEL DSG Minimum kerb weight 1780Kg, add 70L fuel and two adults and its at nearly 2T before I fill it. Its used like a luxury van, the two rows of rear seats have been flat for weeks. Built like a brick out house it's a relaxing comfortable drive, you could crass continents in it.

I test drove the 1.4TSi and it vas very good around town and on dual carriageways but drive with verv, overtake at higher speeds, even 50mph or go up long steep hills and it was not happy, it seemed like hard work for it. The diesel was much more at home doing this. Just using the trip computer the petrol was 33mpg diesel 44mpg. On the flat at steady speed they were much closer. If vw fitted their 1.8 Tsi from the polo GTi 190ps that would tick a couple more boxes.

Keep the diesel, use a Kenlowe hot start for the short runs

The Sharan has a Webasto auxiliary heater, its basicaly the same as the parking heater but without the optional remote. It starts automaticaly in cold weather and warms the engine quickly. At 8 deg outside it takes 2 miles to warm up but at 4 deg it takes less than 1 mile, strange. It also kicks in if driving gently in cold weather to keep the engine hot. I could get it converted to a parking heater, Webasto do a kit for £750 fitted. VW said it would invalidate my warranty even although they fit the kit themselfs in some markets.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT
Keep the diesel, use a Kenlowe hot start for the short runs

The Sharan has a Webasto auxiliary heater, its basicaly the same as the parking heater but without the optional remote. It starts automaticaly in cold weather and warms the engine quickly. At 8 deg outside it takes 2 miles to warm up but at 4 deg it takes less than 1 mile, strange. It also kicks in if driving gently in cold weather to keep the engine hot. I could get it converted to a parking heater, Webasto do a kit for £750 fitted. VW said it would invalidate my warranty even although they fit the kit themselfs in some markets.

Does it have a timer feature - my Touareg does, although I only use the remote and dashboard controls for mine.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

Ive no input at all its fully automated. One of the conversion kit uses a SIM card so you can let the car know when you want to drive via your phone and it heats it up 10 minutes berforehand. Clever stuff. Same unit in the campervans.

A couple of years ago I was driving the Cock bridge - Tomintoul road, January late evening zero degrees ouside and a snow storm started. I was lucky to manage 20mph. The car started to get a bit cold then suddenly the heater kicked in and plenty of heat came through. I was impressed.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - corax

Ive no input at all its fully automated. One of the conversion kit uses a SIM card so you can let the car know when you want to drive via your phone and it heats it up 10 minutes berforehand. Clever stuff. Same unit in the campervans.

I don't know if this was applicable to your model, but it's what you needed. The offer has long since expired.

tinyurl.com/ydfpln8m


Edited by corax on 22/07/2017 at 12:56

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

Ive no input at all its fully automated. One of the conversion kit uses a SIM card so you can let the car know when you want to drive via your phone and it heats it up 10 minutes berforehand. Clever stuff. Same unit in the campervans.

I don't know if this was applicable to your model, but it's what you needed. The offer has long since expired.

tinyurl.com/ydfpln8m


Thats it exactly corax. I was quoted £750 fitted which sounds about right when that was a special offer.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Avant

I presume that's the 2-litre diesel you've got in your Sharan, Stanb. It's got lots of pull, particularly in a car built as you say like a brick outhouse and with aerodynamics to match. The 1.4 TSI is a great engine, but a 2-ton MPV is asking a lot of it.

Personally I think you got it right. A lot of Volvos are put to the sort of use you put yours to, and nearly all of them are diesels.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

Skoda Superb is a big car - but very light - the 1.4TSi has a kerbweight of just 1,300kg, that's down in Focus territory

Be very careful comparing kerbweights between manufacturers since they all seem to include/exclude different thing.

For the record Skoda quote 1300kg for the 125 PS Superb hatch and 1320kg for the 150 PS Superb hatch. Skoda define "kerbweight" as "unladen mass of body in running order excluding driver". I would presume that includes full oil, water etc and as little fuel as they can get away with.

For the Focus 1.5 Ecoboost 150 PS hatch Ford quote 1325kg which appears to indicate its heavier.

But Ford define "kerbweight" as including "full fluid levels, 90% fuel and a 75kg driver".

so take off the driver and the Focus is 1250kg.

and take off 40 litres of fuel which weighs approx 30kg and you get 1220kg

As always don't believe the publihed figures, there is no consistency

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

I don't understand why there are different definitions of kerbweight - an EC Directive from 1996 defines how Mass In Running Order is defined, including the requirement to use that definition in sales material and the EU emissions testing.

It should include a 68kg driver, 7 kg loose equipment and fluids at 90% - my understanding is that using any other definition is illegal!

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - skidpan

I don't understand why there are different definitions of kerbweight - an EC Directive from 1996 defines how Mass In Running Order is defined, including the requirement to use that definition in sales material and the EU emissions testing.

It should include a 68kg driver, 7 kg loose equipment and fluids at 90% - my understanding is that using any other definition is illegal!

Just looked at the V5C for the Superb. The "Mass in service" figure is 1395kg which is exactly the brochure kerb weight figure of 1320kg + a 75kg driver (or 68kg driver + 7kg of bits). But Skoda define in the brochure what they don't include i.e. a driver so that may be one of the rules.

But

Just looked in the brochure we got when we bought the Note in 2015 which defines the kerb weight as being accordance with EU directive 1999//99/EC.2 and it goes on to say this is without a driver. The figure for our car is within the range 1124kg-1183kg (depending on spec and equipment) and the V5C figure for "mass in service" is 1223kg. Subtract 75kg for the driver and you have 1148kg which is in the middle of the brochure range which is hardly surprising since ours was 1 trim spec from the bottom of the 4 available trim specs.

But whatever way you look at it for a Skoda Suberb to be only 172kg heavier (comparing V5C figures) than a Nissan Note (especially when you consider the extra kit and sheer size of the car) is a major achievement considering cars have been getting heavier for the last few decades.

Edited by skidpan on 24/07/2017 at 14:20

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Warning

We have been getting mixed messages. Petrol is bad due to higher carbon footprint. Diesel has a smaller carbon footprint, but is worse on cities due air quality and particulates.

The fact some manufacturer cheated on diesels does n't help the case for diesel. It seems manufacturers cannot meet the aspirations to improve air quality.

Cities such as London are looking to deal with air quality.

From 23 Octobver 2017, it will cost an extra £10 to drive any car which does not comply with Euro 4 in Central London.

From September 2020, they are introducing ULEZ (Ultra Low Emmision Zone), which will operate 24 hours a day. The following will not be allowed in Central London

  • Euro 4 for petrol cars, vans and minibuses
  • Euro 6 for diesel cars, vans and minibuses

From 2021, they plan to widen the coverage area, not only to cover Central London, but a bigger area of London.

I recall London was consulting on banning diesels over 5 years old. Their minimum standard is Euro 6, which applied to all vehicles September 2015.

Other cities are looking to similar measures....

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - bolt

I was under the impression the zone may go out to M25 though it will be interesting to see what happens.

but I cannot see all vehicles being banned as it will cost companies fortunes to upgrade, but its not been thought out properly so far as is always the way with TFL and the Mayor, ie full of ideas but no action

what they want and what they will do may be two different things, IMO they should ban first-motors that are smokey, which is common around London let alone in the City, which may make more of a difference than they realise, instead of saying because one smokes badly they all do which is the impression they are giving

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Engineer Andy

We're screwed:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-pet.../

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - FP

Governments have never been any good at long-term planning. Mostly, they don't actually do any, and when they attempt to...

Let's just say I would take this announcement with a very large helping of salt.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - carl233

The more I see and read of eco-fascism, and the lame-brained ideas of career politicians, it amazes me how the people simply accept what is pushed.

Everything I saw as a right in a free democratic country in previous times is now deemed anti-social - such as the freedom to live without massive government interference in our daily lives.

See an aspiring politician, see a mini Adolf Hitler trying to climb the ladder of state control. Thankfully I will be long retired by the dates the government propose to bring in the mentioned actions.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - RT

We're screwed:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-pet.../

I guess that sets the latest date when I give up caravanning, give up driving and scrap the Touareg - I'll be 93 - I'm looking forward to the next 23 years.

Of course, in the unlikely event that the government misses it's target that date will be extended

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Stanb Sevento

I think this is just the government kicking the can down the road. They dont know what to do and are under threat of fines from the EU so have come up with a target that they have no idea how to achieve but is so far down the road they dont have to do anything now.

Tide turning back in favour of diesel? - Avant

This has been a good discussion, but in view of today's Governmenrt announcement, can we now use the 'ZZZZ electric...' thread started by Fisherman's Bend, rather than have two similar threads going at the same time. Thanks.

Edited by Avant on 26/07/2017 at 12:55

 

Ask Honest John

Value my car