What has the EU ever done for us? - galileo

Recent propaganda from various EU figures shows their true nature and hostility to Britain.

I think much of this is historic:

France has never got over losing the Napoleonic War, resents the fact we rescued them from Nazi occupation (at considerable cost to us), De Gaulle showed no gratitude for all our help, France continued to supply Argentina with Exocet misslies and aircraft spares during the Falklands war, (their idea of solidarity with a fellow EU member).

Spain also nurses grievances about the defeat of the Spanish Armada and the lossof Gibraltar, actively supported (and still supports) Argentina, again a fine example of support for an EU member. Don't forget, Spain takes most of the North Sea fish which used to be reserved for our fishing fleets before traitorous UK politicians conned the public into joining.

Germany shows little gratitude for the financial contribution we gave help unify East and West, remember that VW only survived because a British Officer made efforts to rebuild the Wolfsburg factory. Merkel sees herself as in charge of all Europe and hates the thought of another strong leader of an independent nation she cannot control by economic means.

So what difference has the EU made to ordinary people here? Creeping metrication, EU Courts deciding what we are allowed to do in our own country, taxes from the UK subsidising French farmers and many others, paying child benefit to migrants at 5 times the rate they would receive at home (where the children may actually live).

I honestly struggle to think of real, worthwhile benefits we have gained; no doubt remain-voters will provide a long list!

I think it has been said that we could probably get a fairer deal from the Mafia, does anyone agree?

What has the EU ever done for us? - concrete

The petty grievances of the countries mentioned are of no great import. The French and Spanish realise only too well the value of British tourism and trade. They may resent us but they are unlikely to do anything which affects their economic well being. The same goes for all the goverments in the EU. We buy more from them than they buy from us, so guess whose in the driving seat? We are. The real problem is Germany and the Euro. This is the gateway for Germany to trade with the world without the encumberance of a strong currency, as the Deutchmark was. Without the Euro, Germany would stuggle to export as much as it does, and without the British market it would be even worse off. So that is why Merkel is so concerned about us leaving. It has nothing to do with the EU harmony being upset or anything else. It is purely an economic concern for Merkel and Germany. Being top dog in Europe is dependant upon their econmy thriving. Without the Euro it would struggle. If we don't get the deal we want and we walk away then the EU will suffer most and they won't want that. If some of their economies do go into further decline then the probability of the Euro being ditched is a real one. Especially for Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy., but there are others too who have difficulties. These countries would need to consider having their own currency again to re-value it in the light of economic reality. Simple stuff really, made compicated by politicians so nobody notices how badly they run things. We are coming out and that frightens the whatsit out of them. Don't expect any gratitude, but do expect some common sense coming into play next year when the reality creeps into their thinking. Cheers Concrete

What has the EU ever done for us? - gordonbennet

I'm almost certain my first time voting was to say no to Heath's meddling membership of the EEC in 1975, and i have seen no reason to change my mind in the intervening years.

As for deals, it didn't matter what we had to give up, fishing waters? so long as our political pygmy's did the bidding of whoever owned them at the time.

Dunno bout you lot but i'm unconvinced of the reasons for the present election, apart from those given are eyewash, we have a remainer PM and govt pretending to be staunch Brexiteers, and just look at the tough words being reported in the bought and paid for press by both our very own Teresa Cameron and various EU apparatchiks.

The rough talk pudding is being overegged people, do steady on it's becoming a bit farcical now all this tough talk you'll be up for gongs at the Oscars if you carry on like this and the actors dahling will be fainting in the aisles, i'm more than ever sure now that we'll be rowing back from supposed hard Brexit to a half in half out mess we might as well not have bothered with, my wife said the day after the referendum that we won't be coming out in any way that we imagine and i tend to agree with her, the cabal in charge cannot be trusted.

In 2 years time if we have left the EU, have our fishing grounds back, control over our own borders, EU worker immigration on a required skills visa basis with equal footing to the rest of the world, and without having to borrow £billions more for our children to pay back in EU palm greasing fees, then no one will be more surprised than me and i shall be the first to say i was wrong and Teresa Cameron really could be trusted (cor blimey guvnor i'll even vote tory if she does what she promises), which will be a first for a Prime Minister of this country for many a decade, but i won't be holding my breath.

Edited by gordonbennet on 04/05/2017 at 18:22

What has the EU ever done for us? - Vitesse6

What is wrong with the metric system?

As for tor the other reasons for brexit they don't even warrant an answer.

I am just waiting for the bonfire of environmental and consumer protection regulations post brexit.

What has the EU ever done for us? - daveyjp
Sorry to disappoint, but to be fully free of the EU regulations which the UK were part of agreeing and signed up to will take at least 30 years.
What has the EU ever done for us? - concrete

Doesn't really matter how long it takes to disentangle ourselves. The process is in motion and that is good enough. As for legislation, it has already been agreed in Parliament that the legislation we helped formulate and supported will be adopted into British law. There is no reason to suppose we shall return to the dark ages. In whose interest would that be? I think the UK cares as much for the environment and other matters as anyone else, in fact more than some if you care to look closely next time visiting parts of Europe. We will accept no lectures from these people on any subject and are very capable of developing our own policy on these matters without the vested interests of 27 other countries being taken into consideration and forming compromises that detract from the actual meaning of the legislation. Cheers Concrete

What has the EU ever done for us? - Zippy123

Good to see the little britishers and xenophobes out and about. Having worked extensively in the EU, I have never come across the prejudices that have been listed. In fact I have been roundly welcomed and treated as a valued guest and business partner.

1. Free movement of people, goods and services, the right to live and retire anywhere in the EU.

2. The right to work anywhere in the EU.

3. The right to buy goods, property and services anywhere in the EU.

4. Common car policy meaning that I can order a RHD car in the EU and bring it back here which brought the price of cars down in the UK.

5. Easier to export goods without customs clearance, reams of documentation and delays.

6. Mobile phone roaming.

7. Flight delay compensation.

8. Enabled us as a trading block, to counter the influence of the USA, China and Japan.

9. Uniformed standards for products so we don't have to make a product for each of the individual countries in the EU.

10 Boosted trade, "Daniel Vernazza of UniCredit has shown that UK trade with EU partners grew faster after 1973 than it did with the remaining countries in the European Free Trade Association."

11. The Erasmus program for students.

12. Paid 28 days annual leave enshrined in law.

13 Parental leave enshrined in law.

14. Maximum working hours directive.

15 Cheaper flights. The EU swept away barriers to free market competition that kept airfares inflated.

16. Clear food ingredient labelling.

17. Legislation for clean water and air - no sewage pumped on to our beaches anymore.

18. Free health care when in the EU to the same level as local citizens.

19. If you are sick when on leave this is counted as being sick not on leave so you get your leave again.

20. Ability to arrest suspected criminals in other EU countries without reams of paperwork and delays.

What has the EU ever done for us? - galileo

20. Ability to arrest suspected criminals in other EU countries without reams of paperwork and delays.

Being subject under European Arrest Warrant (on minimal evidence) to arrest by UK police and shipment to countries whose justice system is, like Code Napoleon, based on you being guilty unless you can prove your innocence. Very likely to be held in jail until trial, too.

Do I need to explain in detail why several other 'benefits' have not in practice worked as well as they would in a world where people did not misuse them for selfish reasons?

Edited by galileo on 02/06/2017 at 16:15

What has the EU ever done for us? - Engineer Andy

Zippy, in response to your (many) points:

1. I personally don't want 'free movement of people' in terms of jobs - all it does is a) take qualified people out of poorer areas and reduce wages in richer ones, starving the poorer ones of needed expertise and reducing wages elsewhere, b) floods richer nations with hordes of undocumentated unskilled labour (its need is, in my view greatly over-exaggerated) AND undesirables, many of whom work in the 'black encomony' and increase crime. Poor retirees can just up sticks from one nation and then sponge off another, as some eastern euorpeans do by bringing their older relative to the UK, who have never contributed £1 in taxes - at least our med retirees are rich.

Oh, and of course, encourages the incompetence or failings of on country to allow in, to flourish and then spread mayhem across their borders, extremists and terrorists.

2. See 1., but isn't entirely true, as we often see when certain nations discriminate against foreign workers adn firms of equal or better skills, e.g. skiing instructors in France or dolling out of government contracts to indigenous firms (oftne who are state subsidised) rather than UK bidders.

3. How would this be any different to what was before we joined, or other countries not in the EU enjoy now, that don't have to pay £Bns to belong to the club?

4. RHD cars are only available in large numbers in (other than the UK) Ireland, Cyprus (where mine came from) and Malta (no exports from there), the few that are sold elsewhere are probably in such low numbers as not to mention, perhaps for military personnel if British bases are 'drive on the left' (I suspect not though) as US ones are in the UK. Again, like any product, importation is available anywhere, and the only difference is trade barriers, which don't need be an EU member to reduce (Canada). Extra trade in such cars came about because UK import businesses saw an opportunity to make money out of surplus foreign stock, no different to buying something in a £ store, on ebay or Amazon sourced from abroad (and often outside the EU). My car was made in Japan, and yet is priced competively with EU-made makes and Mazda still makes a nice profit.

5. Mostly correct, but many goods still need to go through lots of hoops before being able to be sold, due to bureaucracy in the EU. Again, this would be no different if we just had a 'common market' free trade agreement.

6. At the expense of prices going up vastly in the UK for ordinary use, including being subsidised by other areas of telecoms, such as landlind line rentals. 3 years ago, my mobile phone per minute cost was 2/3rds what it is today; 5 years ago my landline tarrif (including line rental) was almost half. Who cares if you pay only £10 (or whatever) to use your phone abroad - why not just rent one or buy a disposable one like a rental car?

7. Again, this could be easily part of a free trade agreement, or at least not beyond the whit or parliament here to legislate (same for other EU nations) for such measures pertinent to work for anyone buying a service in that country, whether they live there or not.

8. And yet, we are still subserviant to China in terms of trade, with very little access over there, they copy lots of foreign goods and get away with it, and artifically reduce their exchange rate to boost trade (as the EU has done to benefit Germany at the expense of the southern EU nations). No EU-US agreement on free trade has been reached, and now the US is under Trump extracating themselves from existing agreements that they feel harms their ability to trade. Hardly a great example, especially as the EU bullies poor nations by its protectionsit ways, such as in agriculture, to protect inefficient French and southern European farmers and workers in socialist-led EU nations.

9. Some worthwhile things have been done (forcing better standards from outside the EU), but they've gone way too far, e.g. ErP, and again, most of this is just common sense things that could be done at inter-government level through diplomatic co-operation. Just look at the stupid rules now regarding vacuum cleaners and especially kettles ('reducing' power usage - look it up before making a rash reply).

10. The bureaucracy now has reduced trade - why couldn't it have stayed at 'Common Market'?

11. Debateable (see Wiki entry).

12. Again - how would this differ from anything a national government enshrined in law by their own work? If the people want it, they will ask.

13. See 12. We don't need external agencies to make our laws if we think they are worthwhile, and especially if we don't. Its why enegagelemnt in domestic politics has fallen across the EU, because the EU tells nations what to do. Why bother having national parliaments if they can't make laws themselves?

14. See 12 and 13.

15. See earlier points about markets and free trade agreements.

16. Its not that good - often products have a British label when they are 'sourced in the EU'.

17. See 12 and 13. Diplomatic co-operation still works between nations not in such 'clubs', and I would note that many EU nations actively flout EU environmental rules (and get away with it).

18. You mean foreigners can come from poorer EU nations with poor health care to get in FOC in the UK and other rich ones. Nice. This should only be on the basis of paying the difference between nations for genuine tourists who aren't trying it on.

19. Encouraging welfarism.

20. Sometimes on flimsy evidence and being held without charge for months, and yet we cannot pursue EU nationals who break the law when driving in the UK, or appear to adequately track terrorists (see 1).

What has the EU ever done for us? - sandy56

Some excellent and insightful comments and some nonsense, as usual.

People should remember that before we joined the EU people were trading and working in Europe. I for one travelled all over Europe in the early seventies, working. Was there barriers to travelling between Holland and Germany, France, Italy, Greece, yes, but with a little bit of work, you were organised and didnt have problems with a truck full of specialist equipment travelling thru Netherlands, France, Germany, right up to the then East German border. We were so close we could hear the E German and Russian tank battalions start up in the morning whilst the US airforce flew overhead on daily missions, just to let the Ruskies know they were waiting.

The Snowflakes are getting worked up about the problems we will have, but only if you are an idiot and dont do some pre planning. Europe wants to trade with the UK on all sorts of levels, they will want to have some sort of deal.

Getting into the US is more difficult now than travelling in Europe then, ever was. I for one am glad we are leaving. The big reason for the EU was to stop Germany taking over the rest of Europe, again, and people have forgotten that, but the Germans have now done that, and we dont want or need to be part of it. If you want a different opinion of the Germans ask the Greeks.

What has the EU ever done for us? - Middleman

To add to Andy’s very measured response:

“1. Free movement of people, goods and services, the right to live and retire anywhere in the EU.”

Quite so. And the accompanying right to doss in the underpasses beneath Marble Arch.

“2. The right to work anywhere in the EU.”

Er..except in the French Civil Service (which includes teachers and firefighters, among others). If the UK prevented citizens from other EU countries joining the teaching profession or the fire service there would be uproar and the UK would be up before the EuroBeak (the ECJ).

“6, Mobile phone roaming.

7. Flight delay compensation.”

Wow! Well worth the £10bnannual contribution.

“9. Uniformed standards for products so we don't have to make a product for each of the individual countries in the EU.”

Which also forces the 95% of UK companies who have no dealings whatsoever with the EU to adopt the same standards (often at considerable and unnecessary cost).

What has the EU ever done for us? - concrete

Like Sandy, I too worked in Germany and Holland right through the 70's. Before , during and after we joined the Common Market. (Anyone remember the Common Market?) After settling into my job I brought my car over and used it for leisure and trips home. The borders were mainly transparent and I don't ever remember being stopped until the ferry crossing. I expect it to remain that way in future. Life will pretty much go on as before and so will trade. Do not heed any of the scare stories, they are hypothetical nonesense. There will be changes but nothing too drastic. It will work out in the end because it is in everyones interest(despite Juncker and co) to get it right and keep people secure. They can only govern by consent and won't rock the boat too much.

Cheers Concrete

What has the EU ever done for us? - concrete

I agree with Sandy56. I too worked in Germany and Holland before during and after we joined the Common Market (Whatever happened to that idea?) I had a car while there and the borders were transparent. I don't remember being stopped except at the ferry port. I expect this to remain the same in future. It is in everyones interests to get the situation correct. Life and trade will go on pretty much as before, why wouldn't it? Politicians only govern by consent and they cannot afford, no matter which country they represent, to rock the boat too much. Ignore Junckers and his like. They are peddling hypothetical nonesense. Show me someone who knows exactly what will happen in future and I will show you a fool or a liar. There will be changes, but believe me I have seen some changes in my lifetime, especially during my 50 year work period. All will be well, just diifferent.

Cheers Concrete

What has the EU ever done for us? - movilogo

>> I personally don't want 'free movement of people' in terms of jobs - all it does is a) take qualified people out of poorer areas and reduce wages in richer ones, starving the poorer ones of needed expertise and reducing wages elsewhere, b) floods richer nations with hordes of undocumentated unskilled labour (its need is, in my view greatly over-exaggerated) AND undesirables, many of whom work in the 'black encomony' and increase crime. Poor retirees can just up sticks from one nation and then sponge off another, as some eastern euorpeans do by bringing their older relative to the UK, who have never contributed £1 in taxes - at least our med retirees are rich.

Very well put - could not have written better myself :-)

This was the crux why majority voted to leave EU.

If your skill is in demand, then you can easily go and work/live in another country via proper immigration/work visa/permit channel.

What has the EU ever done for us? - Ryanfuego

That is why this organization was created, firstly big countries to help small ones and contribute them with all the necessary things. Moreover, unity which needed small countries in EU, because of bi polarized political issues. Generally there are many reasons but UK is on top by development in many industries.

What has the EU ever done for us? - Oli rag

Taken lots of our contribution and turned it into CAP subsidies. I understand that 3% of EU citizens are involved in farming , yet around 50% of the total budget goes on this poorly managed ,corrupt and unfair system.

The French farmers benefit greatly and of course are not keen on reform ( burning ports spring to mind), but i remember that the UK's contibution was increased only on the understanding that this mess was to be reformed some years ago.

What has the EU ever done for us? - RT

What has the EU done for us? Ended the perpetual cycle of wars between France and Germany which always seems to embroil our "boys"

What has the EU ever done for us? - Engineer Andy

What has the EU done for us? Ended the perpetual cycle of wars between France and Germany which always seems to embroil our "boys"

...and let in a load of illegal immigrants and terrorists via the back door to start guerilla wars on our own soil, just when our own internal terrorism problems were coming to an end. I personally don't buy the line that the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU has kept Europe 'in peace' since WW2, given many internal problems have been bubbling under the surface for years and are noew surfacing.

Plus encouraging unaccountable governance and corruption, which makes internal social and economic problems (see above and previous comments) in countries far worse than if they were soverign nations with just a free trade and general co-operation pact, as the Common Market used to be.

The politiarti on the continent basically said that the voters aren't capable of delivering a peacable democracy, so we'll take over in a 'benevolant dictatorship by stealth' to stifle unrest and extremism. Problem is, they didn't tell the voters that was the reason for its creation and so voters are now shifting towards hardliners and extremists, because they have no voice, no influence and often are feeling like foreigners/second class citizens in their own countries.

Peace (even relative peace) without freedom and economic/social prosperity means nothing, as many people are now finding out. Those diehard remoaners in our parliament need to heed this warning, as we don't want to end up like many of the Southern EU nations (especially Greece) or worse if they try and force us either to stay in or only leave the EU in name only. What is a shame is that so many people believed the two-faced approach of a certain UK political party, which the results of the GE could make things far, far worse on this issue (giving the remoaners a LOT of power).

 

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