VAG - Class action UK - oldroverboy.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4100220/Class-act...l

VAG - Class action UK - skidpan

I have not even bothered looking at it since it that well known purveyor of accuarate information, the Daily Mail.

At the end of the day what do VW owners want. Do they want to close VW down, get compensation and have worthless car or do they or should they just get on with life and accept that in all probability all manufacturers have been massaging the figures to some extent. They were happy with the cars when they bought them so just continue to be happy with them rather than trying to make the lawyers richer.

We are not in America (thank the lord) where the lawyers are the only people who benifit form these Class Actions.

Its bad enough having a compensation culture without wanting the whole American experience.

VAG - Class action UK - Brit_in_Germany

I think you will find that the content of "news" articles across the different newspapers is pretty much identical now, being sourced from agencies to reduce the costs of having their own journalists researching stories.

VAG - Class action UK - RT

I use a US-based VW model-specific forum - over there owners seem evenly split between having VW "buy-back" their car to make a PROFIT and those wanting VW to put the TDI version back on sale so they can buy another one.

As well as the big difference in blame culture, the other big difference between US and EU is that the US are insisting that all affected cars comply properly with their regulations - while in the EU, VW itself will get hammered but owners are permitted to continue using their cars.

Residual values are always influenced by all sorts of external events, so trying to sue for loss of value in the UK is likely to fail - especially as many of the cars are leased so it would be the leasing company taking the hit, not the users.

Edited by RT on 09/01/2017 at 08:57

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
Was in total agreement with you skidpan right up until I got my Polo 1.2 TDi back after having the update done.

I wasn't too keen on having it done to start with as the only way I could see this working would be with VW messing with the fueling but after several letters and many promises from the service manager at our (normally excellent) dealer that I wouldn't notice a difference I let them do it.

But it's made a very noticeable difference to low speed performance. Turbo lag is now notably worse when pulling away in first gear so accelerating out into fast moving traffic is now more difficult and risky. Considering the car was bought for commuting i certainly wouldn't have accepted it had it been this bad on the test drive.

I bought this car for its combination of economy (which has never got close to claims) and the extra torque compared to the 1.2/1.4 petrol versions. This has now been degraded through no fault of my own and I'm noticing an increase in these wee cars up for sale possibly as a result.

No fan of the compensation culture but I feel VW lied to me regarding the performance loss on what was hardly a ball of fire to begin with. I've suffered a loss in spec and probably a small monetary drop via higher depreciation and increased fuel consumption and all I've had from VW by way of compensation is a crap mug and a key ring.



VAG - Class action UK - gordonbennet

I have no problem with countries penalising companies who break the rules deliberately with heavy fines, if the company don't like an excessive penalty they can show that displeasure by refusing to do business in that country again, it's called freedom.

I can understand those who have had the remap fix being disappointed afterwards if their cars have lost useful power in certain rev bands, which is going to happen if you cut fuelling.

Tthe maker should have been quicker off the mark to offer suitable buy back or other sweeteners, applied equally whether the customer was intent on staying with the maker or buying elsewhere, the maker is about to find it's costs escallating massively once the legal profession stick their snouts in the trough, again.

Those who haven't had the remap fix should not be entitled to benefit from any such award, hopefully the bench who preside will stipulate this in their summing up, but its by no means certain the action will have the outcome they hope for.

As for the compo culture, and i agree it is unpleasant and panders to the one of the most base and vile of human traits, greed.

VAG - Class action UK - skidpan

I bought this car for its combination of economy (which has never got close to claims) and the extra torque compared to the 1.2/1.4 petrol versions.

You being from the motor trade should know that the official figures are not manufacturer claims but are obtained on a rolling road purely for emission and comparison purposes. it clearly states this in all manufacturer literature and on their websites. By law they are the only figures they can quote. I have never obtained close the these figures in the real world but being a realistic sort I never expected to. Provided I get close to my personal expectations I am happy.

On the last VW we owned the odometer was so inacurate it was a joke, it over read by 5% approx. Thus if you used the displayed mileage to calculate your mpg it would appear 5% better than it really was. One way to keep the customers happy.

Just look at the Real MPG section on this site for a rough indication. In most instances the figures quoted have been close to those I have obtained but 2 notable exception have been both on Fords. Real MPG says 2002 Mondeo TDCI does 48.8, over 3 years we averaged 39 mpg. It says a 2004 C-Max 1.6 TDCi does 52 mpg, over 5 years we averaged 44 mpg. To show real mpg can be worthwhile our Kia Ceed 1.6 CRDi averaged 51 mpg over 5 years in exactly the same type of use, real mpg suggests 50.1 mpg. Our Seat Leon 1.4 TSI has averged about 45 mpg against the 44.4 mpg on real mpgs.

For the Polo 1.2 TDI the real mpg figure is 56.8 mpg, are you getting close to that?

Going off topic I suggest if you plan to buy a Ford ignore Real MPG's since I have concluded that Ford encorages their employees to submit ficticious figures to make their cars appear way better than they really are.

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"You being from the motor trade should know that the official figures are not manufacturer claims but are obtained on a rolling road purely for emission and comparison purposes. it clearly states this in all manufacturer literature and on their websites."

Yup, I realise this however the Honda CRV 1.6 DTEC we also run was averaging very close to its official 62mpg figure at around 58mpg but the Polo doesn't even match this despite an official figure of 72mpg. Previous VW's I've run have came far closer to their official test results (Caddy van was outstanding) and the way they're calculated hadn't changed in that time as far as I'm aware.

I wasn't too upset by the true economy though, it's the loss of performance on a motor that sees a lot of use that bugs me. VW have again been dishonest, surprise.

Edited by SLO76 on 09/01/2017 at 13:32

VAG - Class action UK - skidpan
Previous VW's I've run have came far closer to their official test results (Caddy van was outstanding) and the way they're calculated hadn't changed in that time as far as I'm aware. I wasn't too upset by the true economy though, it's the loss of performance on a motor that sees a lot of use that bugs me. VW have again been dishonest, surprise.

The methodology might not have changed but the tricks employed by all manufacturers to "massage" the figures have improved.

And I am not talking about the nonsense put about by some posters such as spare wheels removed, mirrors removed, door gaps and radiators taped up etc etc none of which would make any difference in a lab on a rolling road.

I am refering to features such as stop/start that make little difference in the real world have a huge impact on the official test results.

Take the Volvo V50 as an example. We had 2 in the office, identical cars in every respect except one came fitted with stop/start. The CO figures on that car were 99 (74 mpg), the non stop start was 114 (66 mpg). Over the 3 years we had them the users logged every gallon bought (as required by company policy) and the mpg for the 2 cars was near enough identical at 53 mpg. The main difference was the extra company car tax paid by the user of the non stop/start car.

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"am refering to features such as stop/start that make little difference in the real world have a huge impact on the official test results."

A feature on modern cars I believe will hurt longterm durability. Turbocharged motors should never be just turned straight off after running at speed but this is exactly what the stop start in our CRV would do if I didn't override it by keeping the clutch down. Agree totally that this feature is largely irrelevant.

VAG - Class action UK - Theophilus
A feature on modern cars I believe will hurt longterm durability. Turbocharged motors should never be just turned straight off after running at speed but this is exactly what the stop start in our CRV would do if I didn't override it by keeping the clutch down.

I'm surprised to read this, I would have expected the software to register the engine temperature and not activate the stop-start cycle if the engine was hot - this is how it operates on my Verso 1.6 D-4D

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"I'm surprised to read this, I would have expected the software to register the engine temperature and not activate the stop-start cycle if the engine was hot - this is how it operates on my Verso 1.6 D-4D"

Handy to know and good to see Toyota thinking of the customers longterm wellbeing. I'm surprised at Honda too but every car I've been in with this feature has been the same as far as I've noticed. I'm wary enough buying a modern turbo diesel as it is but this is bound to shorten turbocharger life.

VAG - Class action UK - bolt

turned straight off after running at speed but this is exactly what the stop start in our CRV would do if I didn't override it by keeping the clutch down. Agree totally that this feature is largely irrelevant.

I thought you could turn it off in the menu, you can in the Civic, I have as I never use it, just means pressing a button when you start up to cancel SS

VAG - Class action UK - RT

I thought you could turn it off in the menu, you can in the Civic, I have as I never use it, just means pressing a button when you start up to cancel SS

That may be a difference between Euro 5 and Euro 6 - under Euro 6 if SS is used for the official test it has to default to on each time the engine is started, even if it can then be turned off.

My SS doesn't operate though if I'm towing so there may be scope there to cheat.

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"I thought you could turn it off in the menu, you can in the Civic, I have as I never use it, just means pressing a button when you start up to cancel"

Yes you can disable it or just keep your foot on the clutch when you think it's inappropriate for it to switch the engine off. I do let the system operate in traffic when driving locally.
VAG - Class action UK - FP

"And I am not talking about the nonsense put about by some posters such as spare wheels removed, mirrors removed, door gaps and radiators taped up etc etc none of which would make any difference in a lab on a rolling road."

I've no inside knowledge about this, but I understand giant fans are used to simulate wind drag, which would mean that any streamlining might have at least a minimal impact.

VAG - Class action UK - RT

"And I am not talking about the nonsense put about by some posters such as spare wheels removed, mirrors removed, door gaps and radiators taped up etc etc none of which would make any difference in a lab on a rolling road."

I've no inside knowledge about this, but I understand giant fans are used to simulate wind drag, which would mean that any streamlining might have at least a minimal impact.

Each car is tested in the open air on a "coast-down" test from set speeds which give accurate parameters to set the rolling road and wind-tunnel so that accurate figures are obtained - the real-world discrepancy comes from the required test being nothing like real world driving as virtually no-one drives that gently.

VAG - Class action UK - brum

Afaik there are no wind tunnels involved.

Coast down test is done on one car, using the best tyre size available that the type approval allows i.e skinny and eco. Possibly creative mods such as taped over gaps, removeable seats removed, little fuel in tank etc. not sure if car is weighted or empty, this part of the approval is carried out by the manufacturer in many cases and may not be subject to independent review.

The coast down test is to determine the rolling road settings required to simulate aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance.

Then a rolling road is used to carry out the cycle testing that are used to determine co2, nox etc.

The fan(s) you see in photos is simply to cool the engine during the test.

Edited by brum on 10/01/2017 at 13:14

VAG - Class action UK - Avant

It would be interesting to hear any further evidence, as with SLO76's Polo, of performance being affected by the VW 'fix'. VW will of course deny that there's any difference, and this could have a bearing on the court case.

Good to have evidence - thank you, Skidpan - that start/stop is little more than a gimmick. It's even more annoying on an automatic as unless you disable it at the start of every trip, it will stop the engine even while you're waiting momentarily at a road junction. On a manual you would as SLO says keep the clutch down.

VAG - Class action UK - Theophilus

Good to have evidence ... that start/stop is little more than a gimmick.

A gimmick yes ... but one which saves me £120 VED every 12 months!

Edited by Theophilus on 09/01/2017 at 14:57

VAG - Class action UK - gordonbennet

Good to have evidence ... that start/stop is little more than a gimmick.

A gimmick yes ... but one which saves me £120 VED every 12 months!

The owner of the car at 4/5 years old when it needs a turbo, new battery made of unobtanium and filled with angel tears or other assorted electrical issues due to these things might not be so pleased, though i don't blame you one bit enjoying the savings, i would too.

It's almost certain i shall never own a car with this fitment (it joins quite a few others in my not on your nelly list) , and if such a nightmare ever came to pass i would have the thing permanently programmed out

VAG - Class action UK - RT

t's even more annoying on an automatic as unless you disable it at the start of every trip, it will stop the engine even while you're waiting momentarily at a road junction. On a manual you would as SLO says keep the clutch down.

Don't know if it applies to other models - but the stop-start on my VW Touareg (automatic) can be "managed" using variable pressure on the brake pedal once stationary - normal pressure and stop-start activates if not overridden at start of journey - light pressure deactivates stop-start.

Normal pressure is needed to come to a standstill, but by easing the pressure a little the engine restarts when I want, not when it wants - with enough brake pressure to remain stationary.

I can beat the red/amber phase of traffic lights if/when I try and can avoid delays at Give Ways.

VAG - Class action UK - madf

t's even more annoying on an automatic as unless you disable it at the start of every trip, it will stop the engine even while you're waiting momentarily at a road junction. On a manual you would as SLO says keep the clutch down.

Don't know if it applies to other models - but the stop-start on my VW Touareg (automatic) can be "managed" using variable pressure on the brake pedal once stationary - normal pressure and stop-start activates if not overridden at start of journey - light pressure deactivates stop-start.

Normal pressure is needed to come to a standstill, but by easing the pressure a little the engine restarts when I want, not when it wants - with enough brake pressure to remain stationary.

I can beat the red/amber phase of traffic lights if/when I try and can avoid delays at Give Ways.

I prefer not to have to think about such things whilst driving and concentrate on the traffic..After all, is that the claim of modern technology ? To make driving easier and safer.

Wondering how to beat a silly contrivance must lose concentration on key things...like cyclists..

VAG - Class action UK - RT

t's even more annoying on an automatic as unless you disable it at the start of every trip, it will stop the engine even while you're waiting momentarily at a road junction. On a manual you would as SLO says keep the clutch down.

Don't know if it applies to other models - but the stop-start on my VW Touareg (automatic) can be "managed" using variable pressure on the brake pedal once stationary - normal pressure and stop-start activates if not overridden at start of journey - light pressure deactivates stop-start.

Normal pressure is needed to come to a standstill, but by easing the pressure a little the engine restarts when I want, not when it wants - with enough brake pressure to remain stationary.

I can beat the red/amber phase of traffic lights if/when I try and can avoid delays at Give Ways.

I prefer not to have to think about such things whilst driving and concentrate on the traffic..After all, is that the claim of modern technology ? To make driving easier and safer.

Wondering how to beat a silly contrivance must lose concentration on key things...like cyclists..

You don't have to "wonder" - either you discover it or you don't - and then it's automatic, just like "wondering" where the clutch bite point is on a manual.

Edited by RT on 09/01/2017 at 17:13

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"I prefer not to have to think about such things whilst driving and concentrate on the traffic..After all, is that the claim of modern technology ? To make driving easier and safer.

Wondering how to beat a silly contrivance must lose concentration on key things...like cyclists.."

Can always just switch it off... but it's the prospect of damage done by those who use it as intended that I fear from a used buyers perspective.

Edited by SLO76 on 09/01/2017 at 17:15

VAG - Class action UK - RT
"I prefer not to have to think about such things whilst driving and concentrate on the traffic..After all, is that the claim of modern technology ? To make driving easier and safer. Wondering how to beat a silly contrivance must lose concentration on key things...like cyclists.." Can always just switch it off... but it's the prospect of damage done by those who use it as intended that I fear from a used buyers perspective.

The prospect of long-term damage is down to how well, or badly, the engineers have done their jobs - there are many occasions where my stop-start doesn't activate, that's the electronics which will vary across brands.

It doesn't bother me that the consensus on my VW Touareg is that the AGM battery should be replaced at 5-years - yes, it's about twice the price of previous cars' quality battery replacements - probably 4x the price of cheapo's - but it's a premium car.

The starter motor is clearly very different to "normal" as it can fire the engine up much quicker.

Many modern turbos are water cooled so don't rely on continuous airflow for cooling - and oils have got better.

I don't think modern cars will stand the same abuse and lack of servicing that some older models would - but I'm not sure there's an issue for well maintained cars.

VAG - Class action UK - focussed

SLO76's post about the difficulty puliing away from stopped in his Polo reminds me of the late 70's and early 80's when the emissions stupidity started.

I hired a just off new BLMC 1800 auto for a week when flying to work away somewhere in the UK, the thing was dangerous, set up far too weak and would struggle to pull away at an uphill T-junction, it just sat there not moving with the throttle buried in the carpet and slowly picked up speed.

Another was the horrible 240 DL's we were issued as company cars. They came back from dealer service with the same fault - too weak, set up on a CO meter and not road tested. The remedy was a 2BA socket on the jet nut on the Stromberg and give it about 3 turns out to richen it up!

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
"The remedy was a 2BA socket on the jet nut on the Stromberg and give it about 3 turns out to richen it up!"

Ah the good old days.. when everything could be fixed with a socket set and bit of monkeying around. Was thinking about a remap on the wee Polo though. Wonder how it would affect it.
VAG - Class action UK - skidpan
Was thinking about a remap on the wee Polo though. Wonder how it would affect it.

Had a 1986 Golf GTi 8 valve. It had the Bosch K Jetronic Injection, required 98 RON petrol and pulled like a train at any revs.

Replaced it with a 1989 Golf GTi 8 valve. Identical car in every way, 112 bhp, 112 torques but it had Bosch Digifant injection fitted, would burn any grade of fuel you threw at it and felt very weak. When you looked closer at the specs the revs where power and torque were produced had moved higher, power from 5500 to 6000 and torques fron 3000 to 4000. So if you drove everywhere with more revs on it drove just the same as the earlier car but was simply not as pleasant.

Racing friend of mine had just taken on a franchise at his workshop from a well know engine chip manufacturer. Deal was I got the chip at trade and he fitted it FOC and did a power a curve before and after on his rolling road.

The company claimed an extra 12 bhp, it had 3 more so not a great result. The torque curve was definitely flatter so it should have driven better but there was a major issue. The CO readings and HC readings had gone way high to MOT failure levels, it appeared to be simply overfuelling the engine. So chip was removed and sent back.

Soon got used to the car and in reality it could not have been that bad, kept it 7 years and 113,000 miles.

Would I chip or map a car again, never.

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76
Remap makes little difference on a normally aspirated engine but turbocharged motors can be boosted dramatically. My gaffer's recently had his 2014 Focus ST done but the thing's went from being fun but a bit of a handful to nearly undrivable at full throttle thanks to the torque steer. 300bhp and front wheel drive do not a good combination make. Being a bit of an old fuddy a minor improvement in low speed pull would do me.
VAG - Class action UK - skidpan

I'm surprised to read this, I would have expected the software to register the engine temperature and not activate the stop-start cycle if the engine was hot - this is how it operates on my Verso 1.6 D-4D

On my Leon 1.4 TSi stop/start does not operate immediately after a longish motorway trip. Its simply because the oil temp is above the programmed threshold. Drive for probably 1/2 a mile and it works as normal.

VAG - Class action UK - corax
Remap makes little difference on a normally aspirated engine but turbocharged motors can be boosted dramatically. My gaffer's recently had his 2014 Focus ST done but the thing's went from being fun but a bit of a handful to nearly undrivable at full throttle thanks to the torque steer. 300bhp and front wheel drive do not a good combination make. Being a bit of an old fuddy a minor improvement in low speed pull would do me.

The older RS would handle it better with it's 'RevoKnuckle' suspension or even the older Mk1 with it's quaife differential but even the standard new ones lose traction. It might make more sense if the map was switchable to allow it to come in later for mid acceleration.

VAG - Class action UK - skidpan

If standard cars are loosing traction what would a gain in power achieve, you are simply going to get more wheelspin. I rarely use all the power my Leon 1.4 TSi 140 produces so why anyone wants double (or even more) is totally beyond me. The only place they will get quicker to will be the cemetary

VAG - Class action UK - SLO76

If standard cars are loosing traction what would a gain in power achieve, you are simply going to get more wheelspin. I rarely use all the power my Leon 1.4 TSi 140 produces so why anyone wants double (or even more) is totally beyond me. The only place they will get quicker to will be the cemetary

Totally agree. It had 247bhp from standard and brutal acceleration as far as I'm concerned. All he's done is make torque steer worse, the power isn't usable until you're above 50mph anyway so what's the point. He's ruined every car he's had with a toxic combination of hard driving, power upgrades and home servicing but always keeps them spotless so some poor sod will land it after he trades it in next.
 

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