VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 19:51
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - 659FBE

The attached makes for interesting viewing.

From my knowledge of VW engine control and my experience of engine testing, my view is that these people are very close to the mark. Models without SCR are not covered - my suspicions are that a similar evasive technique has been employed.

659.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao&feature=youtu.be

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 20:17
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - brum

You expect people to sit through over an hours worth of techno babble?

I suspect most people including myself just don't care.

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 21:56
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - nortones2

"techno babble" Is there something wrong sharing engineering issues? Difficulty keeping up? Ignorance is not a virtue, or is it?

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 22:21
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - brum

I prefer the facts condensed down to a brief paragraph in the daily express ;)

The fault lies with the eurocrats who live in cloud cuckoo land anyway.....

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 22:35
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - Bolt

I thought it interesting and explained a lot,not that you can do anything about it, but must have taken a while to develop to get it right

I know...nobody is interested

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Sun 24 Apr 2016 22:37
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - nortones2

I blame the Express...If you troubled to view the link, you might see that the fault lies with VW management in the authors view, (and BMW) and possibly others undisclosed so far. And since when have the USA NOx requirements been the result of eurocrat meddling?

It is a lifting of the veil on the codes used and the cold-blooded way VAG behave. Thanks for the link 659!

Edited by nortones2 on 24/04/2016 at 22:39

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 00:23
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - Avant

Thank you very much for putting this up, 659. I'm not technically clued-up enough to follow it closely, but there those on here who are and will be very interested.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 10:01
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - craig-pd130

Very interesting - the VW engineers certainly gamed the testing regime.

Emissions rules are being treated by the manufacturers like the racing teams treat the F1 regulations: only to be conformed to if they can't be got around.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 10:31
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - RT

Very interesting - the VW engineers certainly gamed the testing regime.

Emissions rules are being treated by the manufacturers like the racing teams treat the F1 regulations: only to be conformed to if they can't be got around.

Just like politicians, businesses and most individuals!

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 12:56
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - John F

Thanks for this 659, v interesting if a bit longwinded. Start at 40mins for the best part.

Why isn't there more criticism of the absurd testing process? A much better picture would be obtained if cars were tested on a set route at a set time in similar conditions, say Trafalgar Square to Didcot and back via Amersham starting at 10am on a Friday morning on a dry day when the air temperature is between 8 and 18 degrees....

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 13:07
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - Bolt

why isn't there more criticism of the absurd testing process? A much better picture would be obtained if cars were tested on a set route at a set time in similar conditions, say Trafalgar Square to Didcot and back via Amersham starting at 10am on a Friday morning on a dry day when the air temperature is between 8 and 18 degrees....

There would be more criticism of the poor fuel consumption of some motors, But it is a good idea.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 13:52
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - alan1302

Thanks for this 659, v interesting if a bit longwinded. Start at 40mins for the best part.

Why isn't there more criticism of the absurd testing process? A much better picture would be obtained if cars were tested on a set route at a set time in similar conditions, say Trafalgar Square to Didcot and back via Amersham starting at 10am on a Friday morning on a dry day when the air temperature is between 8 and 18 degrees....

Because that's a rubbish test....if you are going to give all cars the same test then it needs to be easily repeatable which your's isnt.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 15:47
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - Engineer Andy

The problem with that is that even a set route on a set time/day of the week cannot guarantee equal driving conditions from one test to the next:

The effects of weather other than temperature (wind, rain, humidity, etc);

Road traffic conditions on the day (road works/diversions, accidents, even having to follow a slow-moving vehicle, such as a hea*** or road sweeper, for a reasonable distance);

Who the driver is that day (I'm sure any testing regime would need more than one driver to cover all vehicles [not just cars] to test);

How to interpret result if this is the only route, e.g. certain vehicles may do very well on that route as they make the most efficient use of their engine compared to others, which may do (comparitively speaking) far better on another (including type of) route.

The 'Real mpg' method HJ uses (as long as the driving style and type of route profile is factored in) is best, giving an average (or maybe even one that fits a person's individual driving style and journey profile) and a range of mpgs for town and motorway driving. Most motorists should have the sense to make judgements based on such criteria/results.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 16:01
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - slkfanboy

The solution is quite simple. Record the trip data from a number of common uses from all countries within the EU(28). Lets say 100 from each member state. 25 from each season. This must include urban and extra urban and be typical for temperature,altitude, speed etc etc.

That way it would be very hard for the figures to be fudged or software designed to trick the tests. Plus it would make real world figures meaningful.

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 16:29
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - RT

The solution is quite simple. Record the trip data from a number of common uses from all countries within the EU(28). Lets say 100 from each member state. 25 from each season. This must include urban and extra urban and be typical for temperature,altitude, speed etc etc.

That way it would be very hard for the figures to be fudged or software designed to trick the tests. Plus it would make real world figures meaningful.

It only makes sense as an average of European driving patterns - they should go back to something similar to the original UK official tests - where the Urban cold start is just that, from cold say 5 C, not 20-30 C as at present - plus a 120kph (75mph) constant speed figure for highway cruising.

That way, people can use whichever figure is more appropriate to their unique driving pattern, or more likely to pick a figure between say 40% Urban 60% Highway. That's what I was doing in the '70/80s and it was a damn good predictor of consumption, for my driving style.

Edited by RT on 25/04/2016 at 16:30

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 17:27
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - concrete

Well done 659, can't say I understand all the information but I get the gist. In some ways I don't blame VAG for exploiting this absurd method. As suggested here there are better methods of arriving at an acceptable but true level of emissions. However I would suspect that engine and vehicle manufacturers would struggle to reach the required low levels at everyday use methods of testing. The answer is to establish a regulation that can be achieved and adhered to. If a rule or a law comes into disrepute, as this one has, then it is not fit for purpose and should be replaced. It seems that the dream is of zero emissions, but there is no practical method of achieving this, so where do we go from here? I would rather see the supervision of this put into the hands of truly independant scientists and keep the beaurocrats out if it. Surely by going down the achieveable science route we get the truth and an goal all can aim for.

Cheers Concrete

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 21:01
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - DirtyDieselDogg

Gents, & bound to be some included in the above posts, at 57 years of age, and of a "reasonably" honest disposition, Honest Guv!

Erm, this is real life, ergo; "game" the absurb system of rules put in place to regulate our every whim and inadvertent outbreak of flatuence.

Per an experience in the TA 30 year ago, where we won an important, (albeit only within our NI context), Military Skills competition, and as an Artillery Regiment, no mean feat, when playing against the rigged in favour of the Royal Irish Regiment Infantry skills set-up, by gaming the rules much better than the other teams, and ALL absolutly within the very clearly written rules.

That and a clearly visible "esprit de Corps", within our particularly homogenous team, led by a quite diffedent, but competent Officer.

Anyway, were wuz ah!

Ah yes, the VW shenagians.

Pah!

Or in another parlance, "The only crime is being caught", especially first!

Edited by DirtyDieselDogg on 25/04/2016 at 21:03

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Mon 25 Apr 2016 21:38
VW Golf - VW group diesel emissions, an independent analysis - Smileyman

I think there is a general problem with society - most people are too 'me' centric to care about the emissions, the boffins in their ivory towers dish out diktaks without regard to the impact - eg cost or hoops that need to be jumped through backwards whilst blinfolded in meeting the new standards - all whilst those who are negatively impacted by the emissions get iller and iller and consume more and yet more resource from the NHS.

There is no doubt that the emissions are very harmful to people, and to date technology has yet to find a solution to make good. All this tinkering at the edges is giving scope for another set of human failings - ranging from unflattering interpretations of rules to outright dishonesty with plenty of scope in the middle.

The brave and most successful solution would be to ban all privately run diesel cars, perhaps except for taxis, of course this would be political suicide, so there will soon follow a range of restrictions and cost barriers to gently persuade the general population to revert back to petrol (or to electric, or LPG). None of these are perfect, but all are less harful than diesel.

I just hope that everyone who has a 'I don't care' attitude never has a family relative with breathing or other similar associated problem.

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