Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

As per the title, we are currently looking to replace our aging car with a 2013 model focus 1.6 Ecoboost or Leon 1.4 TSI ACT.

Which would be our best bet for long term reliability first and performance second?

Thanks!

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Avant

The Leno's 1.4 TSI is a lovely engine with lots of torque, but the ACt system is too new for anyone to know how reliable it will be long-term. The Focus will be slower but is still good to drive: for the best chance of long-term reliability, add the Toyota Auris to your list.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Thanks for the reply.

Is it fairly safe to assume decent reliability from the 1.6 Ecoboost Focus, or is it too new as well?

Also are the 148bhp and the 180bhp 1.6 ecoboosts the same in all but the ECU map?

The Toyota is a bit slow for me ;)

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - bazza

Both these cars have turbos, direct injection and producing high outputs, so great to drive but very sensitive to correct oil and servicing regimes. I would try and find one with a perfect service history. I wouldn't touch anything without. I would have thought reliability of either would be fine on such a new car, both makes are about average in the reliability tables if I recall. As they age, something like a non turbo, port injection model eg Auris, Civic 1.8 is likely to be more robust as they are simpler designs with very well proven mechanicals BUT lacking the power outputs you seek, although the 1.8 Civic is a very swift car. I guess it depends how long you want to keep it, for the long run the Jap non turbo options are the best bet. Cheers and good luck.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Ian_SW

Are you sure that the Leon has the ACT version if the 1.4TSI and not its (less good) predecessor?

When my wife got her 'nearly new' 64 plate Leon this time last year, we looked for the ACT version but found that engine was too new to have filtered down into the 'nearly new' second hand cars so settled for a car with the updated belt cam 1.2TSi 110 instead.

I think the oldest cars with the ACT engine would be 64 or possibly even 15 reg, not 13 or 63. The older version of the 1.4tsi was chain can I think and was one known to suffer from timing chain failure.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - daveyjp

OP only states the Focus is a 2013 model.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

The SEAT model the OP quotes must be at least the FR (if indeed a 1.4 TSi ACT 148/150PS model) and will therefore likely cost more than the Focus (even if its a Titanium X model) as (as others have said) has to be a 2014 model (or newer) at least.

The OP will need to make sure the Leon isn't the older non-ACT 140PS model (not sure if chain cam [which apparently had problems across all VAG variants using them]) rather than the more reliable, newer, 148/150PS belt cam variety.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Sorry, my bad!

I don't know why I typed ACT /facepalm.

The 1.4 TSI that we are looking it is indeed a 2013 1.4 TSI ( non ACT ) model. I spoke to a guy at a Seat dealer the other week and he stated that the 2013 1.4 TSI has a belt and not a chain.

I clearly need to go and have a word with someone else at the dealership.

Thanks again guys, it's great when people know what they're talking about :p

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

That's OK - check the cars' spec against the Reviews/Car-by-Car section here so you can sure that the cars they are offering are actually the same in reality. Dealers (small independents or main dealers) can make mistakes over spec (Motorpoint did with my [del miles only] car, and compensated me accordingly), but some can be economical with the truth, especially when it comes to portraying a less well thought-after model as a better one (not necessarily in this case).

Essentially the rule is - look at the vehicles in person to be sure and compare the spec with what is given on this and similar websites. Belt cam engines are a relatively known quantity for VAG cars; chain cam engines seem to vary in terms of reliabilty enormously, unlike Japanese cars where such cars are normally near bomb-proof as long as they are serviced (esp/ oil changes) on schedule (no long service intervals with no oil changes for them). A shame some of the European makes never bother to learn that lesson and took shortcuts (in my opinion) to con potential customers into believing they were buying highly engineered products.

If you're going to keep your next car for a long time, then I personally would consider more standard engined cars, i.e. not small engined ones with turbos, as that technology is still relatively new and hasn't really been proven over a long time frame (7-10 years +) in terms of reliability as well as mpg. Just keep your options open.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Ian_SW

I've had a quick check, and I think there is a version of the non ACT1.4TSI which is belt cam, but not sure whether it made it into the Leon.

It's fairly easy to spot the difference if you lift the bonnet (depending on how mant plastic covers there are) or you should be able to work it out from the CO2 emissions. A main dealer should know though, but if you're not totally sure ask the sales person to check with the service manager.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

They should be able to check with SEAT if they can get the VIN off the car, which should very easy to spot these days.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Eddy56

I have a grand c-max running the 1.6 ecoboost with the 180PS overboost engine. It's a nice engine to drive, good amount of torque and very linear power delivery, no real turbo lag or sudden surge of boost. We had a turbo failure at about 28k miles, fully serviced, motorway miles - maybe just unluckly. The only downside is this engine is pretty shocking on fuel. Even on a steady legal speed motorway run we're luck to get low to mid 30s. My Dad drives a Jetta with the 1.4 TSI, it's far better on fuel (40mpg average) and a nice drive and goes well.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Thanks for all these replies, if only the people I'm speaking to at the various Seat dealers I have contacted were as open and honest.

I have spoken to 3 seperate garages today and none of them are even willing to admit they have heard of any kind of issue with any version of the 1.4 TSI engine. The guy I spoke to previously though, has suddenly changed his mind about the 2013 car we discussed having a belt. He now admits it has a chain.

We are going to go and visit three or four dealers on Saturday ( including two of the Seat dealers I have spoken to today ), so I'll have a good look over the cars they have and see what's what for myself.

Before I start another long journey home, I just want to make sure that I should be completely avoiding any and all 1.4 TSI 138bhp engines with a cam chain or is it there a specific version?

A friend is insisting it's just the twincharger version with the issues; whatever that is.

I'd really like to avoid another Ford if I could, but I can't afford (no pun intended) an ACT model unfortunately.

Huge appreciation for all the help so far!

Edit: The only way I can see to get the kind of performance I'm after, without a turbo, is to sacrifice economy and get a larger engine, and that isn't an option I'm afraid.

Edited by Finguz on 17/03/2016 at 16:24

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

The 125PS belt-cam (newer) version probably is fine in terms of performance, and probably matches that of the Ford (the 140/150PS VAG engined car would probably be quicker), and are obviously cheaper than the higher output versions.

I would personally avoid any VAG engined car with a chain cam, as they appear to have too many design flaws which are only now being found out and 'repaired' (not sure how long the 'fixes' themselves will last for either). If you're going to consider a VAG car, maybe it'll be best to stick to the belt-cam versions. See the Car-by-Car reviews as to which are which.

I know I'm biased (I own a previous version), but have you considered a 2ltr (derated - 120PS or 165PS [Sport 5dr only]) petrol Mazda 3 (2014-). Both use the same engine - the derated one is a bit better on performance than the Leon 1.4 (125PS version) at 8.9 sec to 60mph and about a second slower for your original two choices; the more powerful [Sport] version is about the same performance with no turbo to go wrong and a proper (reliable) chain-cam engine.

A decent car (make sure if you did go for one that it has a space saver spare wheel as the default is for none+tube of glue) by all accounts (see HJ review), a good number of second-hand derated 2ltr Sport Navs around, probably not many of the 165PS versions though, which might bump the price up past your limit. You might be lucky though.

Note that VW are also trying to offload many delivery miles (belt cam) Golf 1.4 150PS (ACT) GT cars (often with metalic paint and CC A/C included) via Motorpoint at £7k off the new list price at £18k, so it may be not that much dearer than a 2 year old car on some dealers' forecourts and maybe better if the difference in age is factored in when selling it down the line. I'm sure other sites are also doing similar offers as well - worth a thought. I did this buying my mk1 Mazda 3 back in 2006, (new unregistered) for LESS than 1 year old+ versions were going for on forecourts. Again, it might be out of your affordibility bracket, but worth a look all the same (Motorpoint don't do haggling BTW).

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

I have a 2014 Skoda Superb with the much er "discussed" EA111 cam chain 1.4tsi (125). The earlier versions of this engine (especially the more powerful twin charger) did have cam chain/tensioner and/or oil consumption issues - later ones revised. Basically if - when you lift the bonnet - you find the oil filter at high level on the front/left of the engine then it's the cam chain.

Regular oil changes important for all cam chain engines (avoid long service intervals - mine set to 10k)

Now the good bits:-

Really really quiet - silent at tickover

Pulls from 1400-6000+ rpm

0-60 10.2 & 127mph top speed

Economy great(Current average 46.3mpg over numerous fills - my previous Superb I 1.9 pd100 did 50mpg on the same commute) www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/720963.html

2000 rpm at 60mph

No oil top ups between services

No DPF

No DMF

Waterpump fed by auxillary belt

No concentric clutch slave cylinder

I bought mine after being impressed with a friends 2011 Skoda Octavia 1.4tsi which except for a stone jammed between brake disk / back plate has been faultless

Edited by Big John on 17/03/2016 at 19:50

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

One thing you do have to ask is why VAG have now changed the 1.4 TSI engine back to belt cam.

In addition, we have another ongoing thread about a failed 1ltr Ford Ecoboost engine (yes, not the 1.6, but they mostly use the same parts/technology). How often do you hear about a failed (non-turbo charged) Japanese car engine, really? Until they are as reliable, I won't buy cars from other countries makes and will continue buying Japanese. For me, not doing so would be too much of a risk/and hassle/expense if a major failure occurred, especially out of the warranty period. As part of my job, I need my car at short notice and thus cannot just get a replacement hire car or use public transport.

I grant you, some small turbo-charged petrol engined cars (though not, by all accounts, the Fords) seem to have the edge on fuel efficiency and mid-range torque over norminally aspirated versions, but they are still too much of a risk for me reliability-wise - the technology is still quite young (operating in that way) and many makes using it still seem to cut engineering corners to be able to price match the non-turbo alteratives.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Ian_SW

Strangely, the only engine failure I've heard of personally (i.e. friends, colleagues etc.rather than via an internet forum) was on a Japanese car (a two year old Toyota Celica), and that was around ten years ago. The guy who owned it drove like a stereotypical early 20s male though, and was also quite ham fisted, so I suspect he did something stupid like put it in 2nd gear instead of 4th at high speed.

It is a bit of a problem with internet forums that you do hear about a lot of problems which may be quite common, but in all probabilities will not end up personally affecting you.

From personal experience, I've done a total of over 200,000 miles in my two VAG turbo petrols over the last ten years and haven't had any significant problems with either car. I've never even needed to top up the oil between services. My current car has the chain cam 1.8tsi which is in theory one of the worst for timing chain failures. It has still done 60000 completely trouble free miles in the last 4 years.

However knowing that it is more likely than most cars to have this catastrophic failure still worries me from time to time, and will probably influence what I buy next even if I get to 150k miles with no problem.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

Indeed - I suppose, rather than a majority of your VAG chain cam engines going bang, its likely that a not-so-small minority do, and that most people will decide whether a car (in general) is 'reliable' based on a percentage threshold of major (read: expensive) failures, even if that number is relatively small.

The difference between what people consider a 'really reliable' car might only be (say) 5%, but the difference between two cars, one that's got a 99.5% non-failure rate and one that's got a 94.5% can make a huge difference in perception. As you say, how owners treat their cars (as well as service intervals/oil change frequencies) makes a huge difference as well.

I would still say that Japanese cars are generally still more 'over-engineered' than ones from other nations (aside from some of the older Mercs), and is noticeable by the number of older Japanese cars still on the road, compared to ones from European nations. Most of the problems they suffer from (other than normal wear-and-tear items) appear to be limited to rust, which is to be expect in older cars, unless they area really cherished.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - slkfanboy

The 1.6 ford Sigma engine is an tried and tested engine dating back to 1995. The latest versions with Ti-VCT performing better than the spec sheets suggest due to good low down torque. A very good refined engine.

The 1.0 ford Fox was designed in the UK 2012 and is not related to the Sigma engines. The plastic components that caused water leak issues on the 1.0 are not on the 1.6.

Going forward the 1.0 engine will replace the 1.6 125 version due to lower CO2 ratings and good performance.
Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Indeed - I suppose, rather than a majority of your VAG chain cam engines going bang, its likely that a not-so-small minority do

ls this something to do with maintenance and long life servicing

I've owned many VAG cars since the mid 80's some with so called engines of doom (84 Polo 1.0 - 19 years, 90 Passat 1.6td - 7 years 200k miles, 2001 Octavia 1.416v - 15 years 120k miles thus far , 2003 Superb I 1.9pd - 10 years 170k miles & 2014 Superb II 1.4tsi - 1 year 25k miles thus far)

My Father in law owned Fiats for years including a Punto and Panda (which we've now inherited)

All have been well serviced and I've never believed in the extended service intervals - none have had any big ticket failures

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

Possibly a factor, but luck plays just as much a part for someone like yourself - another person owning the same (or close to) set of cars might've experienced numerous major problems. As I said, even cars with low reliability records are still likely to have a 70%+ completely major fault-free life. I suppose our expectations of modern engineering mean that we believe cars should be largely fault-free over their expected life.

Ironically, as HJ himself has said on many occasions, many manufacturers (including Japanese ones apparently) now 'design in' a life expectancy of their cars (presumably referring to the structure), and to a lot less than years gone by. They probably do this precisely because cars are generally more reliable than they used to be, with a few exceptions along the way (e.g. DMFs etc).

I think some of the motor industry's more recent reliabilty woes have occurred because, other than adding more and more gadgets and gizmos on cars, there isn't that much that differtiates one from another - most (in the same bracket) drive reasonably well, are safe, secure and often quite similar in styling: so they are in a race to add the gizmos, whether they are fully tested (especially in concert with eachother) or not, then adding the stupid EU emmissions rules which force manufacturers to find 'creative ways' of reducing 'headline' (official) CO2 figures across the board in a short space of time without drastically increasing prices. A recipe for trouble if you ask me.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Re Japanese cars - Ironically my friend who has the fault free Octavia had three Toyota's before this. The first a Toyota Carina was 100% fault free , the next was a Toyota Avensis had gearbox failure out of warranty, the third was another Avensis that had to have an engine replaced (warranty)

Another factor for me is always avoiding the early versions of any car model - I aim for the last of a model as A) Issues usually ironed out B) Bargains usually available

The overiding factor for me is "my" comfort (everyone different) - I'm quite tall and I have a dodgy back that flares up if i'm driving a car where I don't get on with the seat / driving position. Historically VAG cars have been the affordable choice for me although Saab & Volvo seats are the best (Loved my Saab 9000cs)

I have a problem with the latest range of cars though including VAG. Recently when I tried the latest range of VAG medium cars (Golf, Octavia, Leon) I discovered theat the B post seems tp have grown somewhat and it seems to be further forward - my left elbow clouts the door pillar and I can;t use the door arm rest. The three door versions are OK but I need 5 doors for elderly relatives

However I was very impressed with the Mitsubishi ASX when I tried it

When I tried the Superb - On a long test drive (drove the salesman to distraction and had no back ache andwas suprisingly economical (reset trip - I know these can be out)

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Sorry couldn't edit :-

When I took the 2014 petrol Superb on an extended test drive (drove the salesman to distraction) I had no back ache and was very comfortable (bigger doors on the Superb). The car had amazing space (for passengers and luggage), was really quiet, performed well and it was economical for a petrol ( even allowing for potential discrepancy with on board computer).

Oh - and it was cheap, nearly £5k away from a similar diesel at the same dealer (I didn't want a diesel). With my driving I calculated it would take 15years to spend more than the savings in extra fuel costs

Edited by Big John on 18/03/2016 at 18:32

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Well that was an interesting weekend. All the 1.4 TSI models we saw ( all 2013 or older ) used cam chains, and after driving one we weren't particularly impressed, so we won't be getting one of those.

The Focus 148bhp wasn't all that inspiring either, although the 180 was a lot better.

If we had walked away then I would probably be in the process of choosing a Focus Titanium X ecoboost 180, but the sales guy in the last Seat dealers talked me into driving the new FR 184 TDI and I'm in love!

I'm going to have to decide on one or the other in the next couple of weeks.

Aside from the DPF ( although that hopefully won't be an issue as most of my driving is out of town ) is there anything I should look out for with the TDI?

Edited by Finguz on 21/03/2016 at 16:17

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Engineer Andy

See VAG dieselgate and read the Seat Leon reviews (STD 5dr, Estate and SC models) in the car-by-car section (especially the 'good and bad' sub-section)...

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Seat dealers talked me into driving the new FR 184 TDI and I'm in love!

I'm going to have to decide on one or the other in the next couple of weeks.

Aside from the DPF ( although that hopefully won't be an issue as most of my driving is out of town ) is there anything I should look out for with the TDI?

The higher power diesels are impressive but the newer versions with SCR(adblue) don't seem to be particuarly economical - lot's of fun though.

Later DPF instalations that are closed coupled with exhaust manifold are much better than earlier versions that were an "add on" further down the exhaust pipe. The latter would rarely achieve passive regeneration and would always need extra diesel injections between stroke cycles to put diesel into the exhausts system to help with regens. An unfortunate side effect is diesel running down the bores and polluting the sump oil - diesel is not a good lubricant!

Edited by Big John on 21/03/2016 at 20:02

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Did you ever try the Focus 1.6 Ecoboost? The performance figures look pretty good and the HJ real life economy figures not tooo bad. I was given a lift in a Focus ST a while ago and - er wow - fuel consumption became a problem for the owner though

Focus not for me unfortunately , Comfort is my priority and I find the Focus cabin a bit too cosy for my ample frame (hence bigjohn). Eventually I'll have to downsize from a Superb, but probably only when I can have a three door!

For ultimate reliability with some power (not quite ecoboost) - Honda Civic 1.8?

Edited by Big John on 21/03/2016 at 21:41

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Yes we did John, we liked the 180bhp model a lot, and after doing some more reading/research it is looking increasignly likely that we'll be picking one up very shortly.

Thanks to all of you for the great advice and shared experience, it's been invaluable!

I'll update this thread when we have one parked outside.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

We collected our Focus Tit X 180 in candy red tint over the weekend and we're very happy so far.

Thanks again to all that offered their thoughts and advice!

Edit: I'll take a pic or two this evening.

Edited by Finguz on 11/04/2016 at 15:04

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - bazza

Maybe you can come back in a few weeks and let us know how you find it, mpg, comfort etc.

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Big John

Enjoy

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

Thanks guys, I've set a memo to remind me to come back in a few weeks and share some of my thoughts.

Pics as promised, if a little late ;)

imgur.com/a/MrRCy

Edited by Finguz on 13/04/2016 at 22:15

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Finguz

I get roughly 38mpg around town, and up to 54mpg on a run without doing anything I wouldn't normally do.

For me the combined figure sits around 45mpg with 75% of my driving being short journeys around town. If I drive very carefully I can get 41+mpg around town, but 38 is fine for me and the car has plenty of performance should I need to pass anybody.

While not resembling the claimed figures from Ford, they are pretty much what I expected.

Comfort is good, with the miles just melting away, but obviously not as spacious as the previous Mondeo.

Insurance is cheap and so far it has been reliable.

Edit: I almost forgot to come back ;)

Edited by Finguz on 01/08/2016 at 15:18

Leon 1.4 TSI or Focus 1.6 Ecoboost - Avant

Many thanks for coming back to us. Glad you're enjoying it: you seem to be getting better mpg than a lot of people who have the 1.0 engine in the Focus.

The 1.6 sounds just the right engine for the size of car: the 1.0 is probably best for the Fiesta.