OPEC woes - hillman

Have any of the BRs seen this article ?

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12065274/OPE...l

Comments please.

OPEC woes - RobJP

Wasn't it only a couple of years ago everyone was panicking about 'peak oil', and the huge shortages that would be hitting us in the next few years ? Now, the oil is going to be left in the ground because nobody will want it !

The article, if you read between the 'panic' bits, doesn't really say much. Toyota, for example, is aiming to end production of 'conventional' fueled vehicles by 2050. Thirty-five years is a hell of a long way off, and Toyota, in spite of that statement, will have a 'plan B' (and C, D, E, etc.) waiting in the wings.

My opinion : When electric HGVs can go 300 miles between charges, and the FULL charge-up at the end of that takes an hour or less, OPEC will have a lot to worry about.

Until then, this is about as relevant (and as fact-based) as the 'free energy' articles we've been reading for the last half-century.

OPEC woes - pd

Nobody has ever been able to correctly predict the price of oil 3 months out, let alone 3 or 30 years.

However, technology does have a habit of being "just around the corner" for ages then, when it arrives, it arrives with a far faster rush anyone can predict.

If electric cars suddenly make a break through and start following some computer laws of speed of development then a 250 miles range will very quickly become a 750 mile range and a £50000 car a £25000 one. This could happen in 5 years or 15.

Of course, you still have to generate that power, but I don't think you can assume the electric cars of 2026 will be much like those of 2016 just like today's iPhone 6S is a bit ahead of a iPhone Mk 1.

OPEC woes - Wackyracer
Electric vehicles have a long way to go before they become mainstream but, There is plenty they could do to make them better.

I think it is like computers and other technologies where they have the ability to make something superb but, they would rather milk the cash cow by drip feeding us with slight improvements rather than just give us the best they can do right away.

One most obvious improvement for electric cars would be to make the roof and bonnet solar panels. I recently saw rechargeable battery technology on TV where a battery can be charged in just a few minutes.

OPEC woes - gordonbennet
where they have the ability to make something superb but, they would rather milk the cash cow by drip feeding us with slight improvements rather than just give us the best they can do right away.

Spot on, and just like with consumer electronics there are enough people who must have the latest, even if its hardly worth changing, hence the queues of unfortunates outside shops desperate to buy the latest incarnation of their chosen badge.

You can't blame makers extracting the money people can't throw at them fast enough time after time, they'd be daft to make something future proof or that lasts almost indefinately.

Its a good job this happens in car world, or used cars would be in short supply and expensive, similarly if we went over to driving on the right our enviable source of cheap used RHD cars would vanish abroad.

Edited by gordonbennet on 24/12/2015 at 10:54

OPEC woes - Wackyracer
I don't think the working life of things is the death of them anymore, Most people now throw away perfectly working PC's,TV's, Mobile phones and dare I say cars.

These things are discarded on a few primary reasons, for electronics it is usually that it is old technology and people need the latest and greatest even if they won't ever use the extra features. With cars it is usually based on the vain not wanting to drive an "old" car or some false economical reason that it's not worth maintaining or repairing a car with a low resale value. So they go out and buy new cars which then depreciate rapidly.
OPEC woes - John F

Now, the oil is going to be left in the ground because nobody will want it

Just like coal.

Even if vehicles use electric or hydrogen motors, power from fossil fuels, nuclear or renewables must be used to make all the electricity needed. The key vehicle energy-saving development is regenerative braking and the jury is still out whether its mass market will be mechanical or electrical.

Most humans live in sunnier climes than ours. If my small array of 14 solar panels can produce 3000KwH per annum north of the 50th parallel (it even produced >1KwH yesterday!) the future is surely with roofs made of these plus local community or even domestic battery pile storage units. It will be the norm to plug your car into the system but it will probably still have a tiny fuel engine so it doesn't run out. Meanwhile, I shall continue to enjoy my oil-fired central heating and gas guzzler subsidised by the initially generous FiT scheme!

OPEC woes - corax
Most humans live in sunnier climes than ours. If my small array of 14 solar panels can produce 3000KwH per annum north of the 50th parallel (it even produced >1KwH yesterday!) the future is surely with roofs made of these plus local community or even domestic battery pile storage units.

I've thought of this too. Large numbers of solar panelled roofs linked by the national grid to create a domestic power station.

All new housing could have them fitted as part of construction. The trouble is it needs generous Government subsidies and they change every year according to whim.

There is a lot of research into battery technology to pick up on the idea that you mention about domestic storage units - they are thinking of large scale storage systems for wind and solar power too.

People poo poo these ideas at the time, but the same people probably looked aghast at the idea of a horse and carriage replacement. Look what happened.

OPEC woes - Avant

The only constant in economics is that to an economist all news is bad news. Oil prices high? Oil prices low? Interest rates high? Interest rates low? All bad news.

The one thing I know about economics - the First and Only Law - is that the right price is what some other poor sap will pay.

OPEC woes - pd

The traditional car manufacturing culture is slow, incremental changes and has been for 100 years.

However, I wonder if this is about to change. There are new people and companies looking at the car business with an attitude which is far more from the technology industry where major changes every 2-3 years are very common. I can't see Google making the same car for 7 years.

You can buy, very fast, electric cars with 250 mile range for £60000. If the technology starts to follow "Moore's Law" then we could very quickly be at 500 miles and £30000 and then 750 miles and £20000. If it happens, petrol and diesel cars will quickly begin to look a bit rubbish.

Technology and legislation will ensure that the next 20 years will almost certainly see more changes to the car than in the last 100.

Kodak thought it would take 20 years for anyone to make a digital SLR which could come close to their 35mm cameras they'd been happily making for 100 years and they were bankrupt in 5 years with zero market. It can happen.

Edited by pd on 24/12/2015 at 11:35

OPEC woes - madf

The issue with cars is twofold:

1.A new technology takes at least 15 years from introduction to full acceptance (see Toyota Prius the first successful hybrid)

2.All electric cars in the Northern hemisphere require power stations to recharge overnight as wind/solar are incosnsitent/don't work at night. The leadtime for extra power stations from start to power output is ar least 10 years..

As 2. can't happen until 1. the lead times for all electric cars is at least 25 years 15+10) from the first practical electric car being designed.

And we don't have a practical mass electric car yet.

So I'll be dead (or unable to drive through senility) before it happens.

OPEC woes - pd

The issue with cars is twofold:

1.A new technology takes at least 15 years from introduction to full acceptance (see Toyota Prius the first successful hybrid)

I think that will become increasingly outdated. Old sods (like myself) may be a bit conservative when it comes to cars but the under 25's who are the future car buyers are a lot less resistive. They care far more about what operating system it runs than what powers it and have been used to technology changing at a rapid pace all their lives.

Every single established industry which has gone through a revolution never thinks it will happen because it has never happened before.

Is it about to happen to the car? I'm not really sure, but there are some new and very revolutionary thinking players coming to the market and I don't think it can be ruled out.

OPEC woes - RobJP

A full century ago, electric cars were being sold as 'city cars' which had a range of 50-80 miles, and a top speed of 15-20mph. Ideal for urban use.

What exactly is the advance to the 'modern' city electric car (iMieV, etc) apart from an increase in the top speed ?

OPEC woes - gordonbennet

Fair point Rob, and to be honest i don't undertand why electric cars are so expensive, the really expensive parts of the normal car, engine and gearbox are missing and replaced by set of larger than normal rechargeables and an electric motor, they should be cheap as chips.

OPEC woes - pd

I think Tesla has proved the existing manufacturers got it the wrong way round.

Trying to introduce new technology from the bottom up in a market was doomed to failure.

Tesla have followed the more conventional approach of introducing new technology on expensive, top range products and allow that to to filter down naturally to cheaper products as technology matures and economies of scale improve.

So, instead of starting off with some sort of glorified milk float and hoping it will go upmarket electric cars are now suddenly high performance saloons which people aspire to.

I suspect a lot of manufacturers will introduce alternative fuels on their upmarket cars in future rather than city run-abouts.

OPEC woes - hillman

Regarding the new lithium/air battery. The research bods seem to have a time code. 5 Years seems to mean Perhaps, 10 years seems to mean Unlikely.

Although with the amouut of effort being exerted in China on research into ways of reducing atmospheric pollution I don't like to bet.

Was it less than 150 years ago that someone said that the streets would be knee deep in manure if something wasn't done ? (For the younger readers who've never seen it, manure = horse poo. A number of years ago one of my work-mates worked on a project to turn chicken manure into fuel gas. That can be used to fuel cars; and the market for chicken meat in the third world is growing exponentially. The waste products have to be got rid of, why not profitably.

OPEC woes - hillman

Come to think of it, in the USA they have immense indoor plants to produce 'pork belly'. They are having a problem disposing of the waste products, as are the Danes. If the waste products were gasified then there is a fuel for vehicles to rival hydrogen. I've read that the gas is without any discernable smell. Anybody like to correct me ?