Strict adherence to the 'system' would have us all p***ing our horns at frequent intervals (though this might appeal to some Toads!!).
It recomended 'considering' hooting a car waiting in a junction to pull out when eye contact had not been made. This would not go down well.
One piece of advice from 'Roadcraft' that is eternally relevant.... "you must always be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear".
LHM, this is my problem. I know that if we all did that it would be almost impossible to crash. I try - I imagine skips round blind bends to motivate myself to go slower. However to get any real excitement on a blindish corner you *have* to go faster than you can safely see. I know police riders do do this 'cos I once had a blast with a rozzer near pulborough. He certainly would not have avoided impact with a skip placed in the middle of the road round a blind bend. Ditto the faster Rospa and IAM guys.
So what I'm looking for is a 'system' that allows me to ride at an innapropriately great pace but in perfect safety. In fact having done some Rospa & IAM rideouts I'm begining to realise that such a thing doen't exist and if you want to get some adrenalin you have to take on risk.
I've chosen a lowish level of risk and will always get beaten by someone prepared to ignore potential hazards. I'm convinced that even class one police drivers couldn't avoid an unexpected danger at full chat.
The answer? Water sports. You get all the excitement without any of the danger.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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>Water sports. You get all the excitement without
>any of the danger.
So you're hoping the new wheels will attract women with some interesting, er, tastes, are you Toad?
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So you're hoping the new wheels will attract women with some interesting, er, tastes, are you Toad?
What a thread.
Roadcraft to here in three posts!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Try telling that to the walkers/horseriders/cyclists you've just 'creamed' around that bend............. :-(
You answer your own question perfectly, Toad, confine adrenaline rushes to 'sporting' venues and off the public highway. I'm not an habitual killjoy, but surely we've all festered in enough traffic jams, seen enough fatal accidents to realise that pride in one's (safe) driving should be paramount.
The search for a 'system' implies that all driving can be reduced to black-and-white 'rules'. As has been said, many people have died because there is a lot of 'grey' which they nothing about.
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sorry, missed out.....
"to get any real excitement on a blindish corner you *have* to go faster than you can safely see".........
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"The search for a 'system' implies that all driving can be reduced to black-and-white 'rules'."
It does not. And has never said so.
That is similar to saying "The Highway Code is ALL you have to learn".
The attitudes and methods espoused in Roadcraft are a collection of best practice - for a BASIS.
You cannot - and will never be - a "good driver" by just reading a book.
How can good Observation be learnt from a book?
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"The search for a 'system' implies that all driving can be reduced to black-and-white 'rules'." It does not. And has never said so.
It *specifically* says it's not in it's own text!
The attitudes and methods espoused in Roadcraft are a collection of best practice - for a BASIS. You cannot - and will never be - a "good driver" by just reading a book. How can good Observation be learnt from a book?
There?s a whole chapter on it and things that can be deduced from your surroundings. (Roadcraft only mentions obvious ones though.) To back the point up almost everything I know about observation has been related to me by word of mouth.
Perhaps my biggest "problem" [1] with Roadcraft as a book/set of techniques is that much (all?) of it is common sense and would be adhered to by a driver/biker who had never read it. The whole observation section was simple things that we do all day every day. (You know; if the bins are out there might be a bin lorry round the next corner; frost will remain in shadows; roundabout near a garage so spilled diesel might be on it.)
Another example the 'advanced' method for dealing with a skid is to remove the cause. Ie) if you break too hard and skid simply ease off a bit. Wow, the scales have fallen from my eyes!! If you overtake you can pull out earlier for a smoother pass if there are no oncoming vehicles. Really? All these years I?ve been pulling out early into oncoming traffic!
Two things I do actively disagree with 1) I think headlight should always be on RC doesn?t mention it. [2] 2) An empty blind junctions are ignored. I think these should be treated with suspicion regardless.
Having said all that (and I was a little disappointed that there were no revelations [2]) it is a good read for the reasons I?ve outlined above and *anything* that makes me think about how and why I?m doing things on two wheels can only improve my safety.
I?d still like a couple of our tame rozzers/ex rozzers to describe how they apply RC in real life when (relatively) safely they chase scroats at seven hundred and four miles an hour.
[1] Too strong a word.
[2] And remember I have skim read maybe a mere 10 per cent of it so perhaps the secret to lightening fast safe biking is still hidden from me.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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"I think headlight should always be on RC doesn’t mention it"
we HAD noticed.
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"So what I'm looking for is a 'system' that allows me to ride at an innapropriately great pace but in perfect safety. "
What's wrong with going to a track day? All the traffic going in the same direction, no junctions, no-one surprised that you're travelling at speed, run off areas (no stone walls), bends made to be challenging, etc, etc.
V
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"What's wrong with going to a track day?"
If you have a nice car, the idiots who turn up with the apparent intention of spoiling it (their own heaps being little devalued by one more dent).
Mind you, sheep are worrying too!
Tomo
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"What's wrong with going to a track day?"
Since speed kills a track day *must* be more dangerous than the open road. It's obvious!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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LHM, this is my problem. I know that if we all did that it would be almost impossible to crash. I try - I imagine skips round blind bends to motivate myself to go slower. However to get any real excitement on a blindish corner you *have* to go faster than you can safely see.
Something that slowed me down for a moment in my youth (a long time ago now) was written in one of the hot car magazines of the day.
"Imagine a pratt like you coming the other way"
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Toad, my old chap! Roadcraft by itself really isn't much use - ir was designed not to be much use by itself, otherwise every wheelman in the country would be glued to it! It describes some - very- basic principles, which are then honed - in the case of an advanced police driver - by a standard driving course (4 weeks, can be shorter in some forces), and 2 years driving pandas before the advanced course - again 4 weeks, during which the basic principles will be demonstrated and explored VERY thoroughly so that the drive becomes very 'progressive', smooth and safe. Trying to do that with the book on its own, without an instructor showing and then guiding is a bit like trying to learn to juggle or ride a unicycle from a book - or becoming an expert lover by reading the Kama Sutra in solitary confinement! And - if you NEED to go rounds bends faster than you could stop in the distance you can see to be clear, you're either on the wrong line or you have such godlike control skills that its a pity they aren't matched by imagination! Anyway, good luck with your new Toadmobile!
Neil
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in the 60s and 70s when police advanced drivign techniques were first developed they really were a big step forward
sadly they havnt been readdressed well enough recently, and dont take into account road design changes, recent car handling characteristics etc
they should all be re-examined with "the best of the rest" professional drivers, racing/rally/international/long distance drivers together with coppers could probably make some big improvements if they put their thinking heads on and forgot their bias
sadly coppers in practise are out of control and this just encourages their more extreme elements
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Trying to do that with the book on its own, without an instructor showing and then guiding is a bit like trying to learn to juggle or ride a unicycle from a book - or becoming an expert lover by reading the Kama Sutra in solitary confinement!
Understood. But my local Rospa group meets on SUnday mornings. I started in early october and if it's relatively dry and I'm free I go. So far I've been *once*.
I deduce from this that I can't rely on having spare time to be taught everything.
However I'm reading RC for entertainment and wasn't expecting it to make me a DVD style paragon of motoring. *However* I did think that there might be a few tips that would help my to predict anticipate and avoid hazards more easily. So far the only thing I've learned that's new to me is avoiding low speed wobble by leaning forward. (In 4 years of biking I've never come across wobble or weave of either variety.)
I've come to the conclusion that it's sheer talent and prolonged training that makes rozzers riders/drivers good.
And - if you NEED to go rounds bends faster than you could stop in the distance you can see to be clear, you're either on the wrong line or you have such godlike control skills that its a pity they aren't matched by imagination!
I don't get this bit. Almost all twisty A and B roads have blind corners all the time! Any tight turn with a hedge could have a broken down lorry, old couple enjoying a picnic or herd of cows behind it. It would be very hard to brake to a standstill leaneded over 'on' the corner. (Although for narrow objects a swerve ought to be easy enough)
I talked to a traffic rozzer about this. I was telling him about another traf plod I'd seen go over a hill brow with a blind junction at eeeek speed. I'd just passed my trest and asked if traf plod would always be riding so as to stop in the distance they can see. He said 'In theory yes'. Which I took to mean no, it's just not possible to make progress in that way.
As double proof I'm far from the fastest in the IAM and far from the fastest in Rospa.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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"As double proof I'm far from the fastest in the IAM and far from the fastest in Rospa."
Talking to our bike/car instructor when booking SHMBO's three yearly CBT re-run the other day, I mentioned what my daily journey was and that it took about 90 minutes.
He reconned he could do it in 57 (ex despatch rider)
Seeing as 15 out of the 40 miles are in a 30 limit, that takes 30 minutes even without being caught at a simgle light.
Leaving 27 minutes for 25 miles in a 60 limit.
Conclusion: no way whilst staying legal.
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"As double proof" -
"interesting" use of the English Language.
PROOF? I don't think so.
So, in one group, you are not the most careful, and also not the fastest.
So? You think this PROVES what?
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PROOF? I don't think so. So, in one group, you are not the most careful, and also not the fastest.
Two groups.
So? You think this PROVES what?
I think this proves conclusively that others are going faster than the distance they are able to stop in.
Because if I corner too fast and someone else is cornering faster than me they must be cornering too fast too.
In fact further proof that some (all?) are going faster than the distance they are able to stop in is that two guys collided with a stationary car parked round a blind bend.
I value your opinion on this TP. My contention (put up to be knocked down) is that in the real word it is almost impossible to follow this rule. If yuo take the Highway code stopping distances as gospel it becomes doubly true.
[1] By which I mean in such a way as to be able to come to a halt if a low loader is parked *just* out of sight.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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"I'm far from the fastest in the IAM and far from the fastest in Rospa"
Perhaps you could stop thinking about driving/riding in such competitive terms?
The problem with risk is that whilst a driver might think he has a right to take what risk he deems acceptable to *him*, he has *no* right to decide what risk is acceptable to others [1].
To come back to 'Roadcraft' - I think the clue is, as they say, in the title. It is indeed a 'craft' - something to be practiced and honed by experience, whilst acknowledging that some people will always be better at it than you..........
[1] insert feminine form where appropriate.
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"I'm far from the fastest in the IAM and far from the fastest in Rospa" Perhaps you could stop thinking about driving/riding in such competitive terms?
No!!!! I will not rest 'till I am the safest and fastest rider in the known world.... Bwahahahah.
Seriously though I'd have said there are two main reasons to do any sort of advanced training. For a biker it would be to become both safer and faster in that order. (A car driver might feel it's the other way round.)
Police riders are capable of being both safe *and* lightening fast, and are well respected for it. Now I will never achieve that standard (total lack of talent combined with lack of training) but I see no reason to attempt to improve as much as possible against my peers.
The problem with risk is that whilst a driver might think he has a right to take what risk he deems acceptable to *him*, he has *no* right to decide what risk is acceptable to others [1].
I accept that and because I accept it I'm asking how do we reconcile that to the fact that professional emergency services drivers *do* appear to take on a higher level of risk by driving/riding in such a way as to *not* be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear?
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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"two guys collided with a stationary car parked round a blind bend"
Were these guys from the RoSPA group?????!!
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No, IAM.
It was on an IAM rideout though.
On rode home in third gear with a broken clutch arm.
The point being experienced qualified IAM guys on occasions *do* ride faster than a speed that allows them to stop in the distance they can see to be clear, so do policemen.
Which backs up my view that although essential for total safety in the real world it's hard to do.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I interpret the essential aim in driving as to get from A to B as briskly as possible without causing danger to either yourself or others and roadcraft as the techniques that can be used to achieve that aim.
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Brian,
Is that 'as briskly as is legally possible'?
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LHM
Forgive me if I do not comment. ;-))
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Number of things spring to mind here.
1) Seems to be recurrent thought that advanced driving/riding = fast driving/riding : Wrong!
2) Some folks (and that unfortunately includes some, but not many, emergency drivers) seem to forget that the primary purpose of any journey, no matter how urgent that journey, is to get to the other end in one piece. Clearly that includes Toad's IAM chums
Scenario,
1) emergency vehicle EV (widest sense of the word) on its way to incident has an accident.
2) second EV sent to first incident
3) third (and more?) EV(s) sent to incident involving first EV and so on.
Apart from the risk to life & limb, 3+ times the original resource is now deployed.
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1) Seems to be recurrent thought that advanced driving/riding = fast driving/riding : Wrong!
Police bikers are fast. I've ridden with one who left me for dead but for the time I stayed with him seemed to be picking up all the things I was seeing, and spoken to another's mates who claim he's quick and safe.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Toad
Excellent thread!
I took my ROPSA advanced car test 4 years ago and enjoyed the whole experience. However, the overall feeling I got from my instructor, examiner and other ROSPA bods was that we are more skilful than Joe Public and therefore are better than them. Surely you are as skilful as the guy driving towards you on his mobile phone? I was even told whilst going around a blind bend leading into some traffic lights that 'we' could take this corner faster because 'we' were taking the line that gave us the best view ahead!! On principle yes but not sure I agree.
Advanced driving is not about driving fast. Rossi can ride fast but if he took the racing line on the UK roads he wouldn't be fast for long.
Regarding riding with your dipped headlight there is a lot of discusion surrounding this issue. Some feel it makes you less conspicuous others feel that a dipped headlight on a motorbike going over a bumpy road surface can be mistaken as a flashing headlight to let another road user out - probably not a ROSPA or IAM guy because 'they' wouldn't go on a flash?
I think overall with ROSPA IAM and 'profesional' riders / drivers it's a case of do as I say not as I do.
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I was even told whilst going around a blind bend leading into some traffic lights that 'we' could take this corner faster because 'we' were taking the line that gave us the best view ahead!! On principle yes but not sure I agree.
It also implies that non advanced motorists 'don't' take the correct line. I was expected to take the right lines and follow the vanishing point on the corners on my standard DAS bike training and have seen countless articles in bike mags since. Sine everybody does it I don't think taking corners properly could be described as an 'advanced' technique. The same goes for nearly everything I've read in RC.
(I read it for two hours last night - I was waiting for the advanced technique for dealing with darkness. "The skilled rider should always switch on lights in the dark".)
I think overall with ROSPA IAM and 'profesional' riders / drivers it's a case of do as I say not as I do.
We are coming from the same place here. My contention is (and I want someone to knock it down) that if an expert rider rides such that he can stop in the distance he can see an unskilled could keep up simply by ignoring this sensible advice. I can't keep up with a police biker despite ignoring all the safety rules. Ergo skilled riders do not always follow all these rules.
So a book on which rules can be 'safely'stretched is what's really required.
I'd *really* like DVD and MLC to join this one.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Isn't it all about having a little bit in hand?
If you can see 100 feet and stop in 99 then you are on the edge.
If you can see 100 feet and stop in 90 then you have a safety margin.
If you can see 100 feet and stop in 101: you're heading for trouble.
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Isn't it all about having a little bit in hand? If you can see 100 feet and stop in 99 then you are on the edge. If you can see 100 feet and stop in 90 then you have a safety margin. If you can see 100 feet and stop in 101: you're heading for trouble.
On a bike you can accelerate hard but if you go round a corner with a high hedge at a speed where you can safely stop at the speed to can see to be clear you're gonna end up the wrong side of a blind corner almost stationary with fast traffic behind you about to wipe you out.
I'll quote a mate that bought RC the same day as me:
"I really did start reading it with an open mind and willing to learn but it really did come across as a load of self-righteous fuddy-duddies telling me what, to anyone with any interest in how roads work, is obvious."
I've decided that Police drivers *must* ignore *some* of roadcraft's rules. I've also decided that they are quick becasue of talent and some training that Roadcraft readers are not privvy to.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Hi Toad!
2 things - first I think you overestimate the skill levels of the average punter! A lot of bikers don't even consciously countersteer! The vast MAJORITY of punters think their best position on the road is 4ft from the kerb, regardless! They also tend to 'like' 40mph and do it everywhere - including NSL and restricted roads ie 30 limits - and sit in lane 2 on dual carriageways... because that lane goes to London, they're going to London, so...! The fact that YOU read this site and do IAM/Rospa stuff (and it sounds like you had a good bike instructor to start with - even if he didn't convince you about bends!) - doesn't mean everyone knows it! Mention 'vanishing point' to the average punter and they'll be completely baffled - believe me!
Second point - in your last post, I think you are coming towards enlightenment! However...although there are techniques -in most scenarios with limited vision - to increase very significantly the view you can get, these are not all alluded to in RC. They ARE taught on police advanced courses. The difference between IAM/Rospa etc advanced driving and police advanced standard is enormous - IAM/Rospa is normally regarded as on a par with police 'standard' test. To compare Rospa observed runs with police advanced stuff is like comparing a first aider to a surgeon. Honest, I know you can't try that out, but believe me - I've done both - and qualified, and requalified several times as a Class One when there were such grades. If you are going too fast to stop - (bearing in mind the stop distance might include an extended distance you could achieve by deviation) (don't even go there!) - you're not driving to an advanced standard, you're just going too fast. Go over any 'biker' route in Summer - Hartside springs to mind - and you'll see a lot of hard lads who are surviving because of sheer luck - for me the fun is in holding back until I KNOW its safe then caning it...within the speed limit, naturally! ;-) Slow (ish) in, fast out is still true - whatever the antipolice loonies might think, we do talk to other pros and learn FROM EACH OTHER!! Police techniques are OF COURSE adapted to new developments - but they're based on the laws of physics - I haven't noticed them changing much recently...! Another saying which still hold true is the one about there being bold bikers and old bikers, but there are no old, bold bikers! I'm neither, but I know which I'd like to become - and I hope you make the right choice too!
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so can you comment on the the police motorbike that sat 2 inches behind my bumper at 70 on the A303 for a few miles ?
was he following any of these super advanced techniques
no i dont think he was
and he should blommin well think himself lucky that i am not an anti-police idiot because i could have killed him with ever such light pressure on the brake pedal
talk to some traffic cops in the north east/west mids and they dont even realise its common practise for met bikes to go the wrong way up one way streets/ignore red lights even when peds are on the crossing/ and oh so much more i could mention
the problem with teh average traffic copper grade one driver or not is that they have been told they are great drivers and they sadly believe it
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there being bold bikers and old bikers, but there are no old, bold bikers!
I thought it was "There are old mushroom pickers and bold mushroom pickers but no old bold mushroom pickers." I guess the similarities between biking and mushroom picking are closer than I thought.
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Thanks Neil! It seems to be pretty much a definative answer so not much scope for comment or discussion!!! I read it with great interest and will refer to it again before the day is out!
Another saying which still hold true is the one about there being bold bikers and old bikers, but there are no old, bold bikers! I'm neither, but I know which I'd like to become - and I hope you make the right choice too!
Don't fear for me. I can't honestly say I will never crash but I think I'm steady enough (and thoughtful enough) to ride *fairly* safely...
That said there will be plenty of corners where a stationary JCB would give me a fright!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I came back to biking after a break of about 20 years, and very quickly realised I no longer knew it all. (Did I ever? Well, perhaps not.) I think part of the difference was increased volume of traffic. Another, larger, part was a change for the worse in the attitude of road users. Whatever: both changes meant that I would need to be much more thoughtful about the way I rode.
In the meantime I'd taken and passed several specialised driving tests, including PSV and EFADS, so my approach to road use had been altered.
Anyway, the point of this is that I asked two of my pals, both police motorcyclists, to school me as best they could on our regular weekend jaunts, and I learned an enormous amount from them (including vanishing points and using the full width of the carriageway to increase visibility). I still don't know it all, but I'm a better motorcyclist for the experience.
Incidentally, I notice that our old friend Crazed (Idiot? when did he drop the second half of his user name?) is playing his old tunes again. Crazed, you wrote elsewhere in this thread that a police motorcyclist ought to "think himself lucky that i am not an anti-police idiot". Say that again? If not both of those things (1/ anti-police; and 2/ an idiot), then WTF are you? For the record, I'm still tolerating you, for your entertainment value to the rest of the forum, but neither I nor the site as a whole endorse your views.
Martyn
[webmaster and old biker]
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If not both of those things (1/ anti-police; and 2/ an idiot), then WTF are you?
Gee. What will crazed do next? Personal attacks and childish swear filter avoidance?
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Re
"Incidentally, I notice that our old friend Crazed (Idiot? when did he drop the second half of his user name?) is playing his old tunes again. Crazed, you wrote elsewhere in this thread that a police motorcyclist ought to "think himself lucky that i am not an anti-police idiot". Say that again? If not both of those things (1/ anti-police; and 2/ an idiot), then WTF are you? For the record, I'm still tolerating you, for your entertainment value to the rest of the forum, but neither I nor the site as a whole endorse your views. "
Well I tolerate moderators who attribute statements to me that I have never made, and views to me that I dont hold, in the outside world you would call that libel
But hey were all friends here
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Crazed: I know I started it but the best thing to do is not to respond to the personal abuse.
If we hadn't responded this thread would have been off the bottom by now. We've just given Martyn the attention he was looking for.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Toad
There is some doubt in my mind whether I am still qualified to comment as it is nearly 40 years since I qualified Class 1 Motor cycles and some 20 years since I was astride one in anger but nevertheless some observations seeing you asked.
On the speed aspect the fact that, on identical machines, a Police Motor cyclist can leave you standing is down to ability and perception both of which are interlinked. Through his training and motor cycling 8 hours a day he is going to be able to ride that much better than one who only takes a bike out for an odd burst now and again. Plus the fact through useage his perception will be that greater. However, I can recall from my days there were faster lads than myself on the section as I tended to err more on the side of safety and I was better than some of the others.
I have some empathy towards the view that there are occasions we don't all drive at a speed that we can pull up within the distance we can see to be clear. This again is down to human nature in that we all have different perceptions on speed/distance and the ability to judge these.
I am impressed that your bedside reading is Roadcraft in which there are gems to be learnt and put into practice without the need for detailed instruction and which will make you a safer driver. These new skills once implanted can be honed by instruction from IAM/ROSPA etc. Go to it.
You made me dig out my old Bible - Home Office Manual of Police Driving Instruction circa 1964. The final chapter but one - Use of Speed sums it all up with this:-
Don't drive at high speeds unless it is safe to do so.
Don't relax for an instant. Use all your skill and power of concentration.
Always drive so that you can pull up within the range of your vision whether by day or night.
Dont be mislead as to you speed by noises (within or outside the vehicle) or vibration.
Put into practice the principles of Roadcraft.
Guard against fatigue.
Common sense n' ce pas?
DVD
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Many thanks for responding DVD!
On the speed aspect the fact that, on identical machines, a Police Motor cyclist can leave you standing is down to ability and perception both of which are interlinked. Through his training and motor cycling 8 hours a day he is going to be able to ride that much better than one who only takes a bike out for an odd burst now and again. Plus the fact through useage his perception will be that greater.
Thanks DVD. My confusion is that if a brilliant rider rides such that he can pull up within the distance he can see to be clear a poorer rider would easily keep up overtake because on any sort of tight U or A road with hedge he would be doing a *tiny* fraction of the speed that the available grip would allow him.
On unlit motorway with oncoming traffic in the dark for instance a concrete block on the carriageway would be invisible until it came within 40 feet. Yet you don't see Traff Pol at 23mph on a dark motorway.
I have some empathy towards the view that there are occasions we don't all drive at a speed that we can pull up within the distance we can see to be clear.
I suspect this is the crux. I imagine that if you put a skip in the middle of the road round a blind corner in a police pursuit many police cars *would* hit it. I'm not being critical; just saying that to catch a lad in a 1.4 Nova who is totally irresponsible you have to push the safety margins a *bit*. Of course superiour ability and observation will still mean you are pretty safe. For my own riding I modify the rule to be: "Ride such that I can reduce speed to a survivable minimum or take avoiding action if theres a bin lorry round this corner."
I am impressed that your bedside reading is Roadcraft in which there are gems to be learnt and put into practice without the need for detailed instruction and which will make you a safer driver. These new skills once implanted can be honed by instruction from IAM/ROSPA etc. Go to it.
RC isn't the panacea I hoped it would be but it's still a cracking good read. Any incentive to think about what I'm doing is welcome. I'm addicted to ROSPA and the IAM. Both provide a group of like minded people who, despite everything you here, enjoy a good blast as much as the next man.
You made me dig out my old Bible - Home Office Manual of Police Driving Instruction circa 1964.
Even nostalgia isn't what it used to be!
The final chapter butone - Use of Speed sums it all up with this:-
[snip sensible guidelines]
Common sense n' ce pas?
Words to live by.DVD
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Toad
>>I'm not being critical; just saying that to catch a lad in a 1.4 Nova who is totally irresponsible you have to push the safety margins a *bit*. <<<
Take into account that during a chase the one ahead is giving you some leeway and possible advanced warning of something ahead irrespective of the irresponsibility. Possibly not much but a degree.
Its not the car you have to control but the desire to catch the little b at any cost.
DVD
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Take into account that during a chase the one ahead is giving you some leeway and possible advanced warning of something ahead irrespective of the irresponsibility. Possibly not much but a degree.
Ahhhh! The light dawns! I will always try to ride behind in a pair/group. I work on the principle that their brake light will give me extra warning. If you can include that clue in your 'safe distance' then I'm well within the margin of error 97 per cent of the time!
Funny none of my mates realise that by letting them in front on rideouts I'm letting them have the 'points' and the first glimpse terrifying of anything unexpected!
Its not the car you have to control but the desire to catch the little b at any cost.
Your posts here indicate a great deal of self control!!!
I didn't realise you were a bike rozzer too! I assumed a you were a 'mere' 4 wheel jam sandwich pilot! I still think some HJ Back Room DVD observed runs would be great.
You could buy us all lunch too!!!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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So, guys... (mainly DVD & TOTH)
I have always wanted to take an "advanced" driving test, I hope by driving 8/10/12/15+ hours a day I should be more aware of hazards and more able to drive smoothly and safely than a lot of drivers around me. But...
When I look at the websites of my local RoSPA/IAM groups, they all seem to be geared towards late middle-aged motorists, who cover low annual mileages and seem to think that the prospect of a drive on a motorway necessitates stocking up on Werthers a week in advance and bringing a pillow for their hourly service station breaks.
This isn't exactly what I had in mind by "advanced" driving, nor do I want somebody who was last up to speed with contemporary motoring when a 5-speed gearbox was a novelty telling me what to do or what not to do.
Yes, I enjoy "pressing on" a bit, yes, I do want to find out ways to further increase my safety and my enjoyment of driving, but it doesn't look like the groups in my area can provide new knowledge or skills that I don't already possess.
Short of joining the boys in blue, do you have any suggestions?
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Dave
Other than having a thrash round Brooklands (?) may I suggest you arrange an observed test drive with a member of your local club. You may be surprised at the debrief. You, as you say, may well have the skills but they may put them in a better package.
Trust me for I once did Taxi driving.
There is a very true old saying - familiararity breeds contempt
nudge, nudge, wink wink.
DVD
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If you are anywhere near Lincolnshire then there is John Lyon's (I think that is his name, John someone anyway!) performance driving school. They will assess your driving and give you a range of courses that you could do. They also do the IAM stuff as well as more hardcore driving skills.
teabelly
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This refers to the HPC - very good. Very very good.
But I suggest you do the IAM / Rospa route first.
The attitude of "These BOF's would not be able to teach ME anything" is normally found in kids wearing baseball caps backwards.
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Dave TD:
I've done observed runs (bike only) with Rospa & IAM. Despite their image outside of 30's and 40's they are not slow at all.
I once went on an IAM rideout where I got left behind on the A23 with an indicated 110 showing. (Which was ride since I didn't know the route)
On a twisty NSL you will not find them holding you up unless you are a serious nutter.
Rospa do a 'marker system' on rideouts that allow you to ride like a tw*t if you so wish.
Also they will pick roads where it's hard to speed so even on observed runs there's scope for excitement.
On the minus side I didn't really *learn* a lot. (No plans to do either test - just like the rideout and runs) And the fault picked up either don't apply when I'm not on an observed run or are things that I'm aware I should do. (I'm a serial tailgater, I know I shouldn't do it but waiting for an overtake on a twisty road hanging back just isn't an option - the Rospa guy was nmuch more understanding of this. The IAM guys were more understanding of my habit of slaloming cats eye's in 40's to break the monotany.)
The short answer is this: Go along. They are unlikely to charge you on day one and you will like the people even if they are a little older than you. As long as your're not giving up something better to do it there's no problem!
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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On unlit motorway with oncoming traffic in the dark for instance a concrete block on the carriageway would be invisible until it came within 40 feet. Yet you don't see Traff Pol at 23mph on a dark motorway.
Surely Toad one simple technique is to find someone travelling at about the same speed as you, follow in the same lane at an appropriate distance, and if they suddenly leap in the air, concrete block looms.
QED.
Now as for the loose lorry wheel coming bouncing over the central reservation, that really is the stuff of nightmares if you knew really how often it happens. :-((((((((((((((
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Surely Toad one simple technique is to find someone travelling at about the same speed as you,
...And just where am I going to find someone doing 140mph during crowded rush hour in driving rain with slippy road surface and 30 feet visibility????? ;-)
Now as for the loose lorry wheel coming bouncing over the central reservation, that really is the stuff of nightmares if you knew really how often it happens. :-((((((((((((((
I'm guessing it would happen only once....
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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The car was basically folded in half, from the looks of it in today's DT picture.
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DVD, TOTH & teabelly -
Thanks, point taken. I will follow it up further, let you know how it goes!
I haven't worn a baseball cap since my multi-drop 7.5t days...
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