I am not that keen on having a non-motoring topic here. I am particularly not keen on having one so emotionally charged and potentially full of political argument.
However, clearly it is important to people and it does have ramifications for all of us, including within our motoring lives.
Given that, and given that the original thread is now an unmanageable 100 posts, here is volume 2.
However, I give you fair warning, if it does develop into a slanging match, or it becomes too difficult for this forum, IMHO of course, I shall remove it again.
Mark (RLBS)
Moderator at Work
mailto:mark_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
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I echo the sentiments expressed by the right honourable Moderator. This isn't about saying "B***** firefighters. Sack the lot because they are greedy', its about saying that what they are asking for is not reasonable. I have the ultimate respect for the actual firefighters as they do a good job. But so do cleaners, bus drivers etc.. and some of them must take home less than 1/2 a firefighers wage. The people within this dispute whom I hold most contempt are the Unions. I personally wouldn't dream of joining a union as I find them to be two faced - they get pretty good salaries and depend on people being underpaid - its not in their interests to see a fair wage for all.
Anyway, back to the firemans strikes - surely a better way to deal with this is to refuse to do things like rescuing stupid cats from trees, or pumping water out of flooded premises (unless there is any danger to human life). This would probably gain more public support than the present strike.
So, I hope that this doesn't form slanging match. And I look forward to driving again on motorways without the overhead displays saying: "Firefighters Strike. Please take extra care."
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Apologies if this has been covered in the latter satges of the original thread.
I'd guess that Green Godess coverage is primarily focused on areas of high popluation density. If the FBU go ahead and commence an 8 day action I'm wondering what, if any, help there's going to be for anyone involved in a major motorway incident any distance from a major town/city. In such circumstances speed is of the essence and with a top speed of 35mph I don't see many GG's being able to attend promptly. The FBU say they'll respond to major incidents but it takes time for information to get through and any delays in mobilising resources could prove disasterous !
Someone's already said this but it's worth repeating. Let's all take a bit more care when driving whilst this strike is on. No appointment or business meeting is so important that it's worth dying for.
Also, check your smoke alarms (and advise/assist your friends & families to do so). If any batteries need changing DO IT NOW ! If you haven't got any, go and buy some !
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"Let's all take a bit more care when driving whilst this strike is on. No appointment or business meeting is so important that it's worth dying for."
If people need a Fireman's strike before they take care while driving - God help us.
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You're right of course Steve but sometimes it takes something like this for people to realise just how vulnerable they really are and to put things into perspective. If this strike serves any useful purpose, perhaps it will be that.
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Yesterday, someone asked me this provocative question - there is reference to a car-boot and Engines (tenous motoring link).
What is the difference in morality between the people who said?
"Give us millions or more people will die - and who knows who will be the next"
1. The fire brigade union by withdrawing their labour and Fire Engines?
2. The Washington Snipers shooting from the boot of their car?
Or do you blame the authorities in both cases for failing to take appropriate measures to circumvent these threats, or should they respond by giving in to such threats? <<
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I beleive the time is right for the government to instruct councils to put all firefighting activities out to private contract, like they have done with refuse disposal etc.
To keep the motoring theme going, a senior fire officer wants a 50mph limit imposed on the M6 in Staffordshire, especially between J15 and J10 (where the M6 and M5 converge). In my experience you are lucky if you can do 50mph between these junctions anyway, especially during rush hour.
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M.B.
Please do not take this thread down that "provocative" route.
A good question for a session down the pub, but not really appropriate for this forum.
Thanks,
Mark.
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Lets bring some facts into this debate:
Fire Brigade starting salary: £16886.48 upto a maximum £23928.40 (leading firefighter)
BP Exploration starting salary: £14,052
Tate & Lyle minimum £15,000 - maximum £20,940
So these figures from the real world (source: Incomes Data Services November 2002) show that firefighters are paid at above market average. So let them find a job paying them £30,000 a year doing something different.
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Just heard a striking fireman arguing that their equipment is too technical for the Army personnel to use effectively - apparently it requires 'years of experience' to do so properly and they're worried about the possible consequences.
Of course that could be true but I wonder if what they're really worried about is the Army exposing that the job's not quite as difficult as the FBU like to make out!
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I work with the MOD and in the main equipment used in the field by our armed forces is highly technical and highly dangerous, more technical than a pump with a ladder on top! I would imagine that to assimilate the "technicalities" of a fire engine would be childsplay for todays military, and could be done fairly quickly.
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I should have said that these figures were for firefighters!!
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Lets bring some facts into this debate: Fire Brigade starting salary: £16886.48 upto a maximum £23928.40 (leading firefighter)
That's interesting, Phil. I've heard a FBO spokesman saying that they want £8.50 per hour. That means they want paying for 3529 hours per annum - or about 40% of the year, presumably based on a "cover" or call out basis.
If we consider the more usual 37.5 hour week, with weekends and bank holidays off (plus 5 weeks holiday) then what they really want is £17.50 per hour, and no overtime.
I wonder what the true comparison is with industries that have to pay their staff for 24/7 cover.
Ian Cook
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Not sure if it affects your argument Ian (brain not in gear yet & haven't checked the maths !) but the £8.50ph figure quoted is for 'take home' pay.
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There are apparently around 800 Green Goddesses, all about 50 years old.
There are apparently around 400 "obsolete", but much newer fire engines in storage.
Why have the newer ones not been used to replace the Green Goddesses as the reserve. I wonder?
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Because the media like talking about the green Goddesses!
Isn't it amazing that there is so little else going on in the world that an item like the strike (serious as it undoubtedly is) can wipe practically everything that isn't sport straight off the news.
It really irritates me that since the advent of 24 hour news coverage the quality of information you get has never been lower.
Tabloid TV, celebrity gossip take it out and whats left?
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>Because the media like talking about the green Goddesses!
Can I just say that, having spent yesterday working in our emergency Joint Control Centre, the majority of calls we received were dealt with by retained firefighters using their up-to-date equipment rather than the military and the Green Goddesses, and that they deserve rather more publicity and praise than they are currently receiving from the media in general.
Boff - works for the police in a countywide control room
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Hear Hear Boff. I'm sure the public are more supportive and grateful to the RF's than the media projects !
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In an era of what seems like excessive cosseting from a safety point of view, when police cars look like christmas trees and every hazard is signed 50 miles in advance, why are green goddesses, (big, very slow to stop and highly likely to be out in darkness) still painted dark green in England, Wales and Scotland ?
VW Bora - nice car, shame about the dealers
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But don't forget that all Green Goddesses have a "Go Faster" stripe down each side!
The GG's in Ireland are painted Yellow, by the way.
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"why are green goddesses, (big, very slow to stop and highly likely to be out in darkness) still painted dark green "
Probably because they, IIRC, are still part of the Civil Defence and are in army green so as not to stand out as a target for enemy bombers.
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"why are green goddesses, (big, very slow to stop and highly likely to be out in darkness) still painted dark green " Probably because they, IIRC, are still part of the Civil Defence and are in army green so as not to stand out as a target for enemy bombers.
no bombers in northern ireland then ;-)
I have to grow old - but I don't have to grow up
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Well, it's pretty well all been said, except that I do trust HMG sticks to its guns and does not allow "leapfrogging" to take off, with consequent inflation. That could be very bad news for the retired and some other groups today, as it was for our predecessors in the '70s.
And if I may risk a lighter note too, when all the dusthas settled, will our road still get the windows cleaned?
Tomo
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I have not had the time to read thru the 1st volume so hope this point has not been covered.
If the wages are so bad, why take the job in the first place?
Also I saw some signs up in one of the London stations asking whether £8.50 an hour was unreasonable. I am not sure of the ins and outs but thought that they were asking for a bit more. Can someone put me right on this?
I would add that I have a lot of admiration for the job they do (along with all the emergeny services) except that firemen the world over seem to think that they are more attractive to the opposite sex than the rest of us!! :-)
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I note that the 3rd 8 day strike is 'scheduled' to finish on 24th Dec - thus allowing fire cover to be restarted over the holiday period - is that still at £6 per hour?
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Me too CM !
I keep hearing the figures £31k pa and a take home pay of £8.50 per hour being quoted but have no idea how they get from one to the other ! Either they're claiming a hell of a lot of hours or they're deducting an awful lot from the gross figure.
£31,000/(52x37*)=£16.11ph so what are they deducting (in addition to tax/NI) to get to £8.50 ?
* I think I read this was their weekly hours.
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A traffic plod form another place wrote the below.
Not sure if I agree. Soldiers know the kind of things they might be expected to do and the life seems great - I wish I could afford to do it.
Moderator: Enter stage left.
None the less worth repeating:
\"One group who seem to have been forgotten in all this? Having just
finished 15 hours working with the armed forces I`d just like to say
that they have been dropped in the deep end big time. The group I was
with had just come back from Afghanistan, 1 day back with their
families, 3 days training and then posted to the other side of the
country for the forseeable future. Working with archaic kit. No
personal protection clothing, just normal camoflage kit. It was
torrential rain last night but they couldnt wear their waterproofs as
it would melt - so after the shout, back to the army cadet base to try
and warm and dry themselves. Cant go home after the shift, just sit
around trying to amuse themselves. 24 men to one room with no
distinction with whether you are on nights or days so when a job comes
in everyone gets woken.
Their only entertainment is one small telly - but noone wanted to
watch it much as it was constant in depth firestrike analysis - where
everyone just seemed to be criticising the job they were doing. Its a
thankless task - they cant win either way. Noone wanted to report on
the numerous lives they managed to save last night - just on the ones
they didnt (with no telling whether those people would have died
anyway).
Just to say that the ones I have had the priviledge to work with were
100% professional, 100% committed and gave it 100% all the time. Shame
that during and after this is over they wont get the recognition they
deserve.
\"
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Alvin, I removed Toad\'s comment, I trust you do not object to me removing yours.
M.
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On a motoring note:
The GG in our area was built in 1954 and has done 3,000 miles from new!
How's that for low mileage? :)
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Actually that was intended to stir a bit but on reflection it\'s my second unacceptably tasteless comment of the week.
Sorry.
There\'s never a modererator when you need one is there...
[as if by magic...........
And either you start thinking a bit more carefully or you will become the next contributor to start writing about pink furry dice ;-) M.]
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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I bet very few of the Service People who are manning the GGs are getting the wage that the firemem don't want now, never mind what they are asking for. Still, they are used to a 7 day week for peanuts, so they probably find being firepeople is a lot fewer hours but quite stressful.
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[as if by magic...........
And either you start thinking a bit more carefully or you will become the next contributor to start writing about pink furry dice ;-) M.]
Many thanks!!!!!!
ITYM Pink Firey Dice!
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Mark,
No I don't object I think you were quite correct.
alvin
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ToTH
Have to agree totally here. I was talking with one of my staff today and he raised the point that the "Squadies" are probably only on £14K per year if they are lucky. His only positive point was that at least they got to drive 50s kit (he is rebuiding a Riley) and may get to drive a "real" fire engine.
I have done fire fighting training at Leith in Scotland whilst in the Merchant Navy and a tanker course in Southampton. These where of necessity very intensive week courses, but from what I saw you can get the basics in no more than a month and the rest with experience. Police and Nurses etc will take far longer to get the basics and will have have longer to gain the experience.
Bill
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Bill has covered a very pertinent point.
To train as a policeman you have to go to police college, and probably be a graduate to enter. You have certain restrictions on your personal life: no hard drugs, no known criminal friends etc.
If a nurse a 3-4 year training plus working for relatively low wages.
Firemen? a six month training period?
In my view there is a comparison to be made: but to claim the standards of entry and training are equivalent?
madf
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Firefighters have to put their lives on the line on occasions, for which dedication we should all be grateful. But the job is far safer than many others, for instance the building trade has a fatal accident rate many times higher than that of the fire brigade. In truth, the brigade is probably overmanned. Most incidents they attend, especially involving motor vehicles could be tackled by two men in a Land Rover equipped with fire extinguishers and cutting gear.
Firefighters seem to have claimed a romantically heroic niche in the nations heart, but a much smaller force with the back up of retained firefighters for major incidents would probably be just as efficient.
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Now that the first strike is (temporarily) over, I'm looking forward to seeing the motorway gantry signs saying:
"Strike Over - You may now drive dangerously again".
Ian
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Here in Lincolnshire the road injury/death road sign totaliser can start its numbers spinning again! (Actually I didn't notice any change in the Lincolnshire driving standard over the last two days).
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remember reading a survey that said the most dangerous job of all was elephant keeper
seems they tend to get used to being next to the big things, and get squashed etc with amazing regularity
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Being stepped on isn't the only hazard, either...
www.biogasworks.com/Goodies/1999%20Darwin%20Award%...m
Not exactly motoring, I know.
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BJ
I disagree.
Definately an abnormal load?
DVD
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