If the the firemen were on strike they would be no use to my trapped family, so of course I would not support the strike.
Or are you implying that we should support the fireman who are going on strike because they are the people whose job is to rescue my trapped family, and if we pay them what they want they will end the strike?
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What I also find strange is that the firemen are picketing outside the 'closed' stations with the doors open and all the comforts on hand. That would not happen at any other place where labour had been withdrawn.
Is my faith in human nature being overly optimistic in thinking that if push come to shove and an incident occurs requiring their skills they would turn out and behind all the rhetoric there is an agreement?
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I have not read all of this thread so this may have been suggested here, but I don't think that any of the emergency services should have the right to strike.
To ensure a fair standard of living, their pay should be linked to average earnings. Whether the same, above, or below could be decided as appropriate but it would prevent them lagging behind and getting into this situation.
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I have not read all of this thread so this may have been suggested here, but I don't think that any of the emergency services should have the right to strike. To ensure a fair standard of living, their pay should be linked to average earnings. Whether the same, above, or below could be decided as appropriate but it would prevent them lagging behind and getting into this situation.
That was the deal they had. They were tied to the top echelon of blue collar wages.
Problem is that the world has moved on. It's a great job, people love it. They get 40 applicants for every job, they do naff all on the few days when they are at work.
Fantastic job, no need for more money.
40 per cent? Sack em all.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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The question should be, "If your family were trapped inside a burning house, would you support the firman's strike?"
Maybe, but the real question is "If we give the fireman 40% and then have to follow suit with all the other public services, will you be happy with a 10% increase in your tax bill?". I suspect most people will then say "No".
On the car note - if you come across a RTA before the green snail get there, DO NOT put your head in the car UNLESS the air bags have gone off. They go off at around 155mph, and if you're in the way they can do a good impression of the guillotine....
Richard
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I understand that there many, many applicants for jobs as firemen. If the present incumbents don't like the wages let them vote with their feet and let's have the people in who want to work for the remuneration on offer!
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Yes - I believe competition is fierce - my stepson was an unsuccessful applicant (and would have made an excellent fireman IMO), though we do not know how many of the 38 applicants for each vacancy are suitable.
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Wel I watched a "station manager" say he was sad to be on strike.
It can only be a 100% unionised living in the past service where the management follow the union. Anywhere else the management would run a skeleton service. Even the railways do..
Any manager going on strike should not be one.
Unbelievable in the 2oth century let alone the 21st.
Reform needed? too right. (and the management at the top must be so out of toouch with modern management practises).
If I recall when the US Air Traffic Controllers went on strike in the 1980s over a similar claim, Ronald Reagan sacked them all and replaced them with military and new recruits.
Are all the Government's increases in taxes are to be used to fund wage awards for public servants? Hmm I think I can guess the response of the people not employed by the state...
madf
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Sack the lot of them I say and let the military use the fire appliances that we as ratepayers have paid for. Loads of people would do the job and be glad of the pay.
Three people at least have died in fires already during the strike, I'm not saying they wouldn't have died but... If the firemen win where's it all going to end "a winter of discontent" raging inflation? Sack 'em!
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Yes - I think I agree with the general sentiments expressed in this thread, though I don't have any direct involvement, it does seem thatthe FBU is extracting the Michael. I have not yet met one person who supports either the pay claim or the strike. So I think the 'phone in polls (BBC and GMTV) must be rigged, even though they are not scientific.
Regarding sacking the lot and replacing with all those applicants: How long does it take to train a fireman - anyone know?
One other thought - The pickets are using the fire stations and are wearing the uniforms, this is our property - is this on, could they be prosecuted?
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Regarding sacking the lot and replacing with all those applicants: How long does it take to train a fireman - anyone know?
Prolly takes ages but we can\'t risk an unreliable fire service. They need sacking and replacing even if it csts lives in the short term.
In the long time having a fire service that are prepared to work every now and then will save lives.
could they be prosecuted?
**** ****!
[snip] - I wasn\'t offended by this comment, neither did I think it was offensive. However KB, a man I respect, did find it offensive and for quite heartfelt reasons. Therefore, out of consideration for him and others who might feel the same, I removed it. Mark.
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Training time? The army are quoting for red fire engines about 4 weeks, and I believe about 3 months for a fireman. Doubt if that would cover all the specialised tools they handle.
Remember part of the modernising needed is that the pay system is flat for all firefighters.. so if you have 1 or 25 years service, know how to operate 1 or every tool.. you all get paid the same.
Unbelievable in the 21st century (again).
Frankly the management and unions are just so out of date.. (train drivers have the same)
madf
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I wager that when there is an incident with plenty of good press coverage our 'heroic' fireman will ride to the rescue and milk all the publicity they can.
Which is akin to a mugger seeking praise because he has stopped beating his victim.
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I'm not a fireman (as was - firefighter to be correct). Having said that, I was up until earlier quite recently. I did it for a very long time ( I was a young man when I joined - I'm not now). On that basis, I do not have an axe to grind (metaphorically and literally). However, I've picked up a bit of an insight into the job - that is to say the hours, the good bits, the not so good bits, the dangers and risks, the health and safety practices to minimise them. I've met the men and women who actually do the job and who also actually know all these things. I worked with genuine cracking good people and skates. Some who work at busy stations and some at quieter ones. I've done the Christmas shifts, the nights and weekends and also had the days off during the week. I've had good laughs and I've been reduced to tears. There were times when I had to get a mate to take over for a while when the screaming of a victim has got to me. I've dealt with property, old people, kids, animals, trains, planes and automobiles, stuck in lifts, hoax calls, rubbish, skips, people impaled on steel rods, people who've called cos they were too drunk to find their keys and were locked out. I've cut police officers out of their cars when they've come to grief for whatever reason. I've had fun helping raise charity money and I've been paid every month since I joined. I paid my 11 percent pension contibutions every month and now they give me some of it back. I did my four months initial training, my 12 month qualification exams, my 4 year qualification exams, my HGV driving exam, first aid, breathing apparatus, cutting gear, roof ladder, etc, etc,etc, refresher training. I know how much and how little you need to do to get in the job, to stay in the job, to leave the job.
You get the picture. I could go on all night. I could respond to all the points that have been raised here. I could ask why one particular contributor suggests that firefighters should all be burned. I could agree with some and disagree with others, I could suggest that some clearly simply jumped on the "sack the lot of them" school of thought. I can sympathise and empathise with some points raised. However, I'm sorry that so many contributors have indicated their feelings in the way that they have without having the benefit of all theactual knowledge of the facts. Most of all, I'm glad I'm not doing it any more if the views expressed here reflect the way that the rest of the British public feel about people like me and the people I worked with. I'm saddened but not angry. If this is what everyone feels, then I feel I'm best off out of it. I honestly didn't know that you all felt as strongly as you've indicated about the job I did.
Toad, I shall remember the comment "Burn them" for quite a while. Never let it be said that your comments are without impact on others - it had an impact on me.
As I said I could spend half the night engaging in debate about all the points raised here and elsewhere but much prefer not to. The vast majority of contributors have made their thoughts very clear and comes as an eye opener to me. For that I should be grateful.
I haven't contributed so much lately and prefer it that way but do sometimes look in. I've said my bit and would rather leave it at that.
KB.
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Sorry about the erroneous "earlier" in the first sentence.
KB.
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Bravo KB.Its easy to be critical when realities are not apparent.
Simon T.
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I appreciate your input KB. But similar arguments could be made by nurses, doctors, consultants, ambulancemen, surgeons, army, navy, airforce, police etc etc.
The fact remains that there is virtually no staff turnover, recruitment is easy and terms and conditions are pretty good, unlike many of the above.
The FBU is boxing itself into a corner here, it is living in the 1970's defending outdated practices. If they want to be treated like professionals then act like them. Listening to Andy Gilchrist is like listening to Scargill from 30 years ago. How much does Gilchrist get? How much are the sevicemen on the green goddesses getting? And to suggest that servicemen, themselves highly trained these days, couldn't drive a fire engine is a joke. Don't forget many service personnel have some fire fighting training already. It is insulting to the armed forces to say that they couldn't do the job at least reasonably well given the equipment and some training. Remember these are well disciplined people, it's not like taking someone off the street and training them.
The FBU need to end this quickly. Public support is at its peak, things can only get worse for the FBU as people die.
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KB,
The feeling generated in this thread is simply because the firemen are prepared to put lives at risk to pursue an unjustified pay claim. It is pure simple greed.
Thus they have lost the respect of many of the public and they will surely lose this battle. The exposure of the indefensible working practices, they have used their muscle to protect - and we pay for, will mean in the longer term they will lose the war.
Marcus
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I was pleased to see on the TV news tonight that the soldiers covering the fire strike are demonstrating that they have the same well developed skills as regular firemen.....the footage showed them sitting, watching the telly while having a brew. All they need now is to find a second job to do on their days off and they will be fully qualified!
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"All they need now is to find a second job to do on their days off and they will be fully qualified!"
They have second jobs already. That's why 21% of the Nations fighting ships are currently tied up in harbour and 5 front line fighter sqns. are grounded and Lord only knows how this has affected the Army spread accross the globe like they are.
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KB's post made me feel very sad.
It's easy for people to get carried away with an issue like this, but it saddens me to see someone like KB, who obviously served a long and dedicated time in the fire service, feel so shocked and let down by the way the general public's attitude is turning against firefighters.
I DON'T think the 40% payrise can be given, because of the knock-on effect this would have on the economy, although if it were economically possible I'd certainly up their wages if I could, as well as many other professions which are underpaid.
It's just not possible, and I do understand the public's fury that lives are being risked for this strike. I don't think a strike is the right way about this at all, and I imagine it will backfire on the firefighters in the end.
BUT, I also don't think it's right that public opinion should assume that all firefighters are lazy good-for-nothings who are just out for themselves. There are good and bad, as in every walk of life, some who work their hardest and some that play the system.
I really can understand KB's distress at reading some of the generalisations people are posting.
HF
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Result of phone text poll on radio last night.
75% against strike.
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I rather agree with you and KB, HF. I'm not sure that the large pay claim and strike are the way to go about it, but MP's awarded themselved 40% not long ago, and for Blair to suggest that everyone's cost of living might go up as a result of paying the firemen when he's proposing to go to war with Iraq beggars belief! How many of the contributors here would enter a burning building to rescue someone they weren't related to, I wonder? Apart from KB, that is.
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How manyof the contributors here would enter a burning building to rescue someone they weren't related to, I wonder? Apart from KB, that is.
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Very few of us would have the courage to do that,I would guess. A lot of people will argue that this is not the norm in a firefighter's job, and I agree - as KB said, there are many many other aspects of the job, many of which are a total waste of the firefighters' time. The fact remains that they MAY, on any given day, have to enter the burning building, and their job description tells them that this is the case. In the same way, the police, paramedics, etc etc etc don't ALWAYS face danger, but they know every day of their working lives that they might just be called out to do so.
I also agree that anyone entering these professions knows the risks, and the wages, before they join.
Without wishing to reiterate, all I want to say here is that they're never going to get the 40%, whether or not they deserve it, and that by striking they are alienating so many people who probably would have been supportive of them getting an above-average payrise before all this happened.
I think the general public's view stems from the fact that we are all terrified that we will be the ones stuck in the burning house, trapped in the car, whatever, whilst this is all going on. A valid fear, I think, but it does seem tantamount to blackmail that the striking firefighters want to hold us to ransom to achieve their end.
All that said, I still have huge sympathy with KB and his like, and I still think all this must be absolutely gutting for him to read. Imagine giving the best part of your life to a job as he's described above, and then reading this thread.
I sincerely hope there are many more like him in our fire service today.
HF
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The simplest way to end all these type of disputes is to match all public sector workers to averages in the private sector and keep them pegged. As long as they compare like to like ie qualifications needed then there should be no need for disputes. If these links are reviewed every so many years then changing nature of jobs can be taken into consideration. Public sector workers have the advantage of having much greater job security even if the absolute pay is lower. The only problem will occur when there are large disparities in the cost of living between areas. Private sector workers have to cope with exactly the same thing. If it is too expensive to live in a certain area close to work then people either move further away and commute, work hard and get another job which pays better or move to a cheaper area. If more people moved out of London the housing market would cool and prices would return to a sustainable level. There are already shortages of key workers in the capital so house prices will have to fall rather than wages increase to meet them as it will just fuel the house price inflation more.
If the average private sector person has completed a number of years training to do what they do then the firefighters should get the same for those same number of years training. Arguments about getting increased pay because of apparent danger (health and safety statistics show construction and agriculture to be more dangerous) are spurious in this case and paramedics see the same gruesome things, for possibly even less money.
The fire fighter's demands are further weakened by the current recruitement situation. There are no shortage of willing applicants for their jobs. In the private sector wages would stay low in this case regardless of the merit of the job. Wages would then drop to a point where recruitment became more of a problem so wages would rise accordingly and off along the normal rise and fall of market forces we would go.
I do not support the demands for 40% as I think their union should have made sure that their members didn't fall so far behind in the first place. The government wants to pick a fight and prove their are not dictated to by the unions so I think the firefighters will not get what they want whether they deserve it or not. It is highly likely that the right to strike will be removed so they will be in a much worse bargaining position in future.
One cannot entirely blame the firefighters for any deaths that occur because of their action. The government are in charge and if they do not make adequate contingency plans or sort out pay properly ( I think this dispute has been rumbling for several years now) then they should share the responsibility.
I think the fbu rather than the firefighters themselves that are going to be coming out of this looking like the bad guys.
teabelly
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I don't believe essential services should be permitted to strike, and I don't have much sympathy for such a ludicrous pay claim.
FWIW I am on my second year of zero pay rise, and I am fully aware that if I don't like it I can vote with my feet. I'm sure I am not alone here, but the FBU should realise that the employment world these days is a harsh one.
The point of this post was really to give a little due praise to the soldiers. Just seen many bits of footage on the TV - green Goddesses holding up the traffic, hoses giving out a comparative trickle etc etc. But those guys - who I doubt will expect or get any additional remuneration - are out there giving us the best service they can with very basic equipment - even their helmets do not provide neck cover.
Three cheers for the squaddies...
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Teabelly,
I agree with the thrust of your post but take issue on one point:
"I think their union should have made sure that their members didn't fall so far behind in the first place"
They have a formula to ensure they stay at the top of the manual workers league - including the private sector, and they have done better in recent years than most manual workers - at the same time protecting their outdated working practices. Even they are not claiming they have fallen behind in pay - they now claim a new professional status and should be paid as such.
Marcus
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Fair point. What professions in the private sector are they comparing themselves to?
teabelly
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