So the mobile phone companies have decided to use petrol forecourt price signs to hide their transmitters.
But are we not told not to use phones on forecourts for fear of explosions?
Surely base stations give out more radiation than a simple handset could.
Also, isn't it ironic that mobile phone-users expect a good signal anywhere they go, town or country, but nobody wants a transmitter near where they live, work, or go to school.
(I am one of the few people left that does not possess a mobile phone!)
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There is no risk of explosion from the signal given out by radio masts of any description. The risk of petrol vapour igniting is caused by the possibility of a spark from the electronics inside the mobile phone, not from the signal it transmits.
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I would have thought that an internal combustion engine starting is a far greater risk!
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"There is no risk of explosion from the signal given out by radio masts of any description."
Tom,
Are you sure about the above statement? particularly the "masts of any description."
From memory I believe there are very tight regulations about safety fields around radio transmitters.
Are there any up to date experts who can comment?
Marcus
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The air is full of radio signals, from radio and tv stations, satallites, airlines, emergency services, etc etc.
The signal is benign, otherwise we woud have blown half the world to bits by now. It is the combination of electronic equipment and flammable vapour that is the problem.
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'Fly by Wire' aircraft are not allowed within a certain distance of certain high powered transmitting masts, because their electronics and controls could be disrupted by the transmissions. What about these highly computerised cars with electronic throttle linkages etc. A new excuse for people who experience 'runaway' with their automatic gearbox cars perhaps?
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The risks that petrol station owners want us to believe exist are due to the possibility of someone dropping their phone on the forecourt, as the jolt may rattle the battery against the phone and cause a spark across the contacts, just above ground level where flammable vapour can accumulate. Although I've never heard of a petrol station burning down because someone used their mobile phone there!
I think it's more likely they want you to pay attention while you're filling your car up, if you are distracted by a phone conversation you're more likely to go over the amount you intended to buy, pour petrol all over the floor, etc.
There's also the issue of phone signals interfering with the calibration inside the petrol pump itself, possibly allowing you more petrol than the gauge says you've bought. Although I can't see how the tiny signal emitted by a phone could be harmful. Basically it comes down to anything that has the potential to cost the forecourt operator money!
If mobile phone transmitters were really that harmful, wouldn't we notice ill effects in people living near police station radio masts, anyone with a CB radio, local radio stations with relays to more powerful transmitters, and so on?
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This was covered in a similar thread in the old Backroom Dave. It's got nothing to do with the forecourt operators and is in fact legislation imposed by the Health & Safety Executive under the HSG 41 regulations. The aim of this is simply to minimize the risk of unwanted combustion without comprimising the basic function of a filling station, which is to dispense a highly flammable liquid. Therefore all sources of ignition are banned where possible/practical.
RM
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Tom,
I would dispute that radio signals are benign. Unless a microwave cooker can be considered as benign.
Surely it is the RF field strength that defines the danger and that is a measure of energy. That field strength is determined by many factors and can be very high in close proximity to the transmitter.
Marcus
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Marcus,
I know what you mean, but as regards to a radio signal igniting petrol vapour it won't, whatever the medical effects on a human being.
Every modern piece of technology has at one time or another been said to cause all sorts of life shortening diesese, yet the govt tells us It can't afford to pay us our pensions because we are living longer....
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>> But are we not told not to use phones on forecourtsfor fear of explosions?
From the report I saw on the news, the danger in using mob phones on garage forcourts is that if you were to drop the phone, you could dislodge the battery - therefore spark - hence BOOM
Surely base stations give out more radiation than a simple handset
No. The handset gives out far more. What I mean by that is the mob phone is clamped to the side of your head. The base station is at the top of a pole, a long way away from your head, so the radiation output is smaller. The base stations are small powered signal repeaters. That is why you see so many in close proximity to each other.
In the days where everyone and his mother had CB radios, they emmited far more power than a mobile phone, but no one stood up and threw their toys out the pram and complained about them. There was a warning given with most CB aerials sold that you should stand at least one metre away from them when transmitting.
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The only danger is from a spark. I used to work in a place that used explosives which can give off vapour and even battery powered watches were banned.
Regarding radiation from phones, antenna, etc, all radiation obeys the inverse square law. That is if you double the distance from a radiation source the strength decreases to a quarter. So I would worry more about a phone clamped to my ear for a length of time than about a transmitter many metres away. Mind you, the effect on the body of low doses over a very long period is not known for sure, but seem to be benign. As a previous poster said, we are all living longer, despite the bath of radio signals we sit in all the time.
I think this is all tabloid hysterics as usual.
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"The only danger is from a spark. "
;-)
Wheras the 25,000 volt HT circuit on every petrol car could *never* create a spark...
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These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Wheras the 25,000 volt HT circuit on every petrol car could *never* create a spark... --
Presumably the next car will be a diesel then Toad
And what about one of those diesel Enfield copies from India?
about time we had another diesel vs petrol barney on the site!
;-)
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Wheras the 25,000 volt HT circuit on every petrol car could *never* create a spark... --
Which of course is exactly why your engine should be turned off whilst filling up. Whilst these regulations can never guarantee that an explosion won't occur, they are in force simply to try and reduce the risk to an acceptable one. Judging by the fact that exploding fuel stations aren't an everyday experience in the UK, the requirement to turn off all sources of ignition would seem sensible.
RM
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Its not only the duration that matters. The further away you are from a base station, the more power the phone has to pump out to make a good contact. If you are closer to a base station then the phone will reduce its power output because it has a good signal, and you will receive less of a 'dose'.
So all these people who don't have a base station near them, are in fact receiving a potentially larger dose than the people who do.
Jonathan
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Well, Mrs T. used to take electric baths (an opportunity missed, some might feel) and it didn't do her any harm. Unless you count going mad, of course...
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Also, isn't it ironic that mobile phone-users expect a good signal anywhere they go, town or country, but nobody wants a transmitter near where they live, work, or go to school.
And isn't it ironic that people against phone masts don't realise that as they walk aound town a lot of these things they assume are burglar alarm boxes are actually cell phone base stations.
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And isn't it ironic that people against phone masts don't realise that as they walk aound town a lot of these things they assume are burglar alarm boxes are actually cell phone base stations.
...and isn't it ironic that people who whine aobut them have no understanding of the topic at all.
There was some ageing bint with a push chair on TV the other day complaining.
I don't know for sure but I suspect she doesn't have degrees in both Physiology and RF comms.
--
These are my own opinions, and not necessarily those of all Toads.
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Toad
Remember Thalidomide (spelling?).
Did they get it wrong and eventually had to listen to the
wingers. Too late the damage was done.
I'm woried coz Ploddaughter has one of these new Police Radios and maybe in twenty years time she may turn green, grow horns and have long back legs.
DVD
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Plodettes in Lancashire are excused from using the Tetra system if they are pregnant, which probably tells you all you need to know.
Interesting background article from Police magazine on www.polfed.org/magazine/03_2001/03_2001_gaga.htm
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Toad Remember Thalidomide (spelling?). Did they get it wrong and eventually had to listen to the wingers. Too late the damage was done.
Thalidomide (sp?) is still used around the world in large doses and is a fantastic drug (I believe) just not when pregnant.
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"..fantastic drug (I believe) just not when pregnant"
So when else would you get morning sickness? :-)
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"..fantastic drug (I believe) just not when pregnant" So when else would you get morning sickness? :-)
Most Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings. :~]
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Also, isn't it ironic that mobile phone-users expect a good signal anywhere they go, town or country, but nobody wants a transmitter near where they live, work, or go to school.
The telephone companies are more than happy to contact me to put a mast up on the bit of and that I own. I believe that they pay £5k (pa?) per mast.
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Money talks. How close do you live to it?
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Money talks. How close do you live to it?
Far enough!! Don't think that I would get affected 10 miles away!
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Microwave is only used from 7 to 38 ghz for connecting base stations NOT from the handy to the mast this is eirher 800meg or 1800meg.Plains that fly with by wire controls just about every new plane can and do fly near high powereed masts ,Heathrow having many such masts.Petrol fumes are heavier than air and if the volume of fumes reached such a height in the correct volume half the country would blow up.It is not new to use petrol station masts .If you ever travel through germany down to Basle you will see quite a few planned and built by myself (not alone)this was 1996.People who no nothing of the technical side of radio masts seem to have the loudest voices making people panic and join action parties etc without grounds.I would certainly be more concerned with diesel fumes in our cities and the state of our food and water.do not forget the earth is bombarded with radio waves at all frequencies from outer space all the time.
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"..the earth is bombarded with radio waves at all frequencies from outer space.."
As one whose computer spends its idling time analysing the stuff, I think it only fair to point out that you need a b***** big antenna to pick up most of it. Inverse square law and all that.
RF heating occurs well below microwave frequencies, and while a mobile phone antenna is probably acceptable at a filling station, I'd rather not lean up against a disguised one in the high street!
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Just to add fuel to the fire, I think you'll find that some counties have the antennas based within their street lights.
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The post I put in earlier did apply to military aircraft 20 years ago and I am sure that technology has moved on! However, if it is safe for a fly by wire aircraft to fly near to high power transmitters, in what way is it unsafe (allegedly) to have a mobile telephone handset switched on in flight? This is apart from the risk of joining a Tory peer in chokey for doing so!
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I really don't understand what the problem is here.
Radio masts are passive and cannot ignite potential petrol fumes. It is not the radiated radio waves that cause vapour to ignite. You are asked NOT to use mobiles in a petrol stations because pressing the keys on the phone could produce a spark which could, potentially, ignite the fumes.
In reality, the chances of this happening are very very slim but the station retailer doesn't want the risk. You probably have more risk of causing an explosion at a petrol station due to the static electricity from clothing.
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Watcher,
Whilst I accept that radio masts for mobile phones are doubtless safe in petrol stations, they certainly are not passive.
They transmit energy and that energy can cause heating and induce a spark. On very high power transmitters you can cook an egg placed in very close proximity.
To make the point again, I am NOT saying mobile phone masts in petrol stations are unsafe. I agree that other sources, not least a hot engine/exaust, presents the main risk and that risk is very small.
C
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They transmit energy and that energy can cause heating and induce a spark. On very high power transmitters you can cook an egg placed in very close proximity.
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Cardew, should I therefore be worried if I lived near Crystal Palace with its 1000kw TV transmitter?
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No - not unless you decide to climb up it.
C
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For those that doubt the power of radio waves, the Russian Mig-25 Foxbat had a radar system that could kill a rabbit one kilometre away...
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Sorry disagree. These mast cannot be described as 'high power able to cook an egg placed in close proximity.'
The risk of explosion from mobile phones in petrol stations is from the potential spark that may occur when a key is pressed ie when making or recieving a call.
In this sense the transmitters are passive. They do not cause a potential risk. Once again, the risk of starting an explosion in a petrol station is far more likely from the static spark from clothes when filling the car up.
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