Rear foglamps are EXACTLY the same intensity as brake lamps - 21w per bulb! The only difference is that the reflector in a rear foglamp is shaped to aim a strong red beam in a narrow straight line directly behind the car, whereas the reflector in a brake lamp is designed to allow it to be seen from a wide angle, ie 300yds away on a curved motorway sliproad for example.
Most modern cars only seem to be fitted with one rear fog lamp, so you can distinguish it from 2 (or 3!) brake lamps in heavy traffic. But it's still damn annoying.
If my rear foglamp is ever switched on, it is only on the occasions where I consider there to be a risk of another motorist colliding with my car through not seeing it. As soon as they are close enough to see my car without the foglamp, I turn it off so as not to dazzle them.
It amazes me how drivers can find the fog lamp switch at the first sign of a patch of fog, but then forget whereabouts on the dashboard they left it for the next 3 days....
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Dynamic Dave....if we all use daylight running lights, motorcycles will be invisible again.....bad idea.
I think your plod was bluffing. Bulb limit is 55W, but there's no limit on numbers of lamps.
There are no definitions covering "fog" "spot" or "driving" lamps.
The simple rule is aux lights can be used at any time, providing they don't dazzle anyone, but ONLY if they're wired through the dip switch and can only be on if main beam is also on.
Yours can be used with dipped lights on, so are illegal unless it's foggy.
I use two pairs of aux, one wide and one long range, so I can make good progress on the twisties with both, and use the wides to avoid cats, foxes, cyclists and inebriates in the suburbs. They're controlled by two switches, both wired through the dip switch, so only work with main beam on. Legal in all conditions.
This still attracted traffic plod, with full stobes, who blocked the road to stop me escaping from the drive into which I had turned.
It was disappointing to find he didn't know the law. A very heated discussion sapped his confidence, and he tried to save face by shining his torch on a lamp lens and muttering "oh, yes, it's got a reference number stamped on it, so it's OK"
Utterly irrelevant. A retired traffic plod told me the current plod crop's crap. Can't argue with that.
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"There are no definitions covering "fog" "spot" or "driving" lamps." agreed, but there are definitions covering "optinal" lights.
Put simply if your front light fail the "knee" test (i.e. they are below knee level as is the case with the lights under discussion) they become lights that can only be used in conditions of "seriously reduced visibility" and ,no, this does not mean when its dark.
I had a Porsche driver who kept getting stopped by the Police, quite rightly, for having his front optional (below bumper) lights on and was booked about three times in a week under circumstances that neither him nor I could disagree. The problem was that the fourth time he was stopped he threw his keys to the ground and told the Police he didn't want the bother of owning such a prestige motor if he kept getting stopped. After being booked for the fourth time he walked off leaving the bemused cop in possession of an unwanted Porsche - so he got it recovered at some cost to the owner. He came to see me to try and negotiate its release a few days later,
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Fascinating.
The Opel has these "auxiliary" driving lights (I checked the manual for the phrase!) below knee height, which come on permanently when the main beam or dipped beams are in use.
I personally don't like them, as it makes the car look like a boy-racer mobile, but I couldn't be bothered to go through the rigmarole of installing another switch for them.
Interestingly enough, according to the manual, if the bulb goes, the car has to be taken back to the Opel dealer to get it replaced.
And even though we have some pretty horrid weather here, the car comes with no rear foglight as a standard (though their are 'holes' in the ligh cluster for the things...
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I alway drive with my front fogs on now after reading this thread.
At least I KNOW you have seen me judging by all the anti daylight use brigade come up with and that is exactly what I want, thank you!
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Wotcha, Watcher. Good on you. Just don't come to my neck of the woods, you'll collect several £40 fixed penalties per day!
Pug........can you point me to that Regulation, please? I thought the height limit was set to prohibit low down lights.
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I have to question the advice given by m'learned friend Pugugly.
The optional lights as described above come under the classification of main beam headlamps in that they are wired so as to be extinguished by operation of the dipswitch.
ref Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 Schedule 5 para 10 (a) (ii)
Reference to the same regulations Schedule 5 para 2 (c) which refers to the vertical positional requirement simply states "No requirement"
Obviously I don't know the exact circumstances in which m'learned friend's client was using his Porker. I can think of quite a number of cars, eg my old 205GTI, which had additional main beam lamps fitted as OEM equipment below the bumper and wired in this manner, ie only operate with main beam. If they were illegal as suggested why did this car, and the Porsche get a type aproval? Or is it a case of not illegal to supply, but illegal to use.
I am more than willing to be corrected on my interpretation of RVLR 1989 though.
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I meant to have Chapter and Verse available for tonight. But due to a serious brain overload in work today I left the printouts on my desk.....try again tomorrow.
The lamps on the porker were "fog lamps" i.e. switchable and not dippable with main beam,
More news tomorrow.
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Got the stuff faxed to me off the "last to leave the office" brigade
Talking Fog Lamps here as defined by Schedule 6 of RVLR 1989 - no other type of lamp...
This refers to vehicles used on or after 1.4.91.
POSITION
Longitudinal - No requirment.
Lateral - the maximum distance from side of vehicle is 400mm (when used as a pair.)
Vertical - Maximum height above ground is 1200mm (various excemptions here)
No requirement for Angle of visibility, and various bits an d pieces.
However the Porker was displaying fog lights in other than conditions of seriously reduced visibility. They were not dippable with main beam and had a separate switch.
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"However the Porker was displaying fog lights in other than conditions of seriously reduced visibility. They were not dippable with main beam and had a separate switch."
In that case your client was guilty as charged methinks.
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Thanks for that, Pug.
I had been a little nervous of late, in case new rules had crept in, of which I was unaware.
Long nights approaching and hordes of ignorant plods to educate. I'll roll up me sleeves................
How do you think "no, Officer, through the dipswitch, you daft dipstick"................would go down?
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Managed to get his car back without having to surgically remove an arm or a leg. I personally ripped out the fuse for the FOG LAMPS. He has now changed his car and drives an ultra sensible euro-box with no optional lights of any sort !
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Sorry to come back on this one a bit late But:
400mm (16 inches) maximum in from the side and 1200mm (4 feet) maximum height are way above what I imagined were the limits.
On that definition you could put a "fog light" in the middle of the windscreen!
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That's very selfish of you Watcher. What about all the other things I can't see so well because you're shining twice as much light as you need to at my eyes?
GJD
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Don't know what you're all complaining about. Where I live a good 15% of the traffic has no rear lights and at least 5% no lights at all (buses seem to be the worst offenders. The rest varies between a barrage of red, blue or white lights aimed directly at you, the occasional cyclops pointing somewhere at the sky, or some variation of all of that. There is a very widespread school of thought among Filipino drivers that using lights wears out the battery and they should be used sparingly (this is absolutely true!)
Change is inevitable -- progress is optional.
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More like...........Change is inevitable......progress is pure luck.
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Just remember the old adage, 'see AND BE SEEN'!
Sorry, if you are blinded by fog lamps during daylight may I respectfully suggest you visit an optician? The Sun throws out far more light than any fog lamps plus, if you see a halo effect, that is a sign there is something wrong with one's eyes.
I make no apologies for ensuring people can see ME on the road.
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Sorry, if you are blinded by fog lamps during daylight I make no apologies for ensuring people can see ME on the road.
Do you wear a baseball cap back to front and have illuminated washer jets as well perchance? :o)
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What you seem to forget Watcher is that the roads are there for people of all ages to use. Its a matter of the ageing process that peoples eyes are less able to adjust to differences in lighting conditions. Some much younger people have this condition too. Someone, who could have good vision at all other times might not be blinded by bright lights, but have their ability to judge speed and distance reduced by your lights. Its a known effect.
So do you also drive with foglights on at night? If they are adjusted, as you say, pointing down at the ground so they illuminate hardly any distance forward at all, what do you do when its a pea souper?
The whole point of fog lights is that for them to be useful in fog they need to be aligned so that they shine out almost horizontally in the relatively clear air a few inches above the road surface. If they are so adjusted then using them in daylight or at night (with 55w bulbs) WILL cause unecessary dazzle. If they are adjusted so as not to cause this then they are totally useless as a driving aid and just a fashion accessory. Presumably you fall into the latter category.
Also someone made a comment that OEM lights did not dazzle, checked out any PSA group cars, eg 405, 406, Saxo are some of the worst examples.
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Wotcha again, Watcher.
I've said it before, but you didn't comment, so I'll ask it again.
We all need to see motorcycles. We do see motorcyles because their lights are on in daylight.
If we all run lights during the day, motorcycles will merge into the scenery again.
How do you think this will affect motorcycle casualty figures?
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FiF - "The whole point of fog lights is that for them to be useful in fog they need to be aligned so that they shine out almost horizontally in the relatively clear air a few inches above the road surface."
Is that true? I can't remember the last time I was out in fog. But my recollection is that if you shine any light directly out into the fog, all you see is even more dense looking fog. I'd assumed their purpose was to provide additional short to mid-range light to assist with seeing the road markings etc.
I don't however agree with daytime fogs
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That's the point:
Fog is densest at headlight level, and just reflects them straight back at you, especially if not dipped.
The light from fog lamps is supposed to go under the fog (which is zero at ground level, increases up to headlight level, then thins out again as you get higher), and only get affected on the way back to you.
That's the theory, although there was a long correspondence in the archives by someone who'd done a lot of testing of this to see if different lights made any difference, and he reckoned that foglights were no better than any other.
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How do smokie,
Bogush beat me to it, due to the long nature of the post, sorry about that, and the conversation referred to involved both B and myself.
Clear-ish layer? Well that is how I understand it. There is indeed a small area, 6" max maybe where the fog is definitely less dense. Something to with the temperature of the ground.
Guess I need to explain myself more clearly. The vehicle headlights are in the area where fog is present and thickest, so the main problem as the fog gets thicker is, as you say, reflected light off water droplets forming the fog. Similar and brighter effect in falling snow of course.
The main problem with this reflected light is at night of course. Daytime its less of a problem, but I find as the density of the fog increases and the reflected light becomes more of a problem at night, a useful technique is to adjust the dashboard headlight dial that cars have been fitted with for a few years now so that the angle of the dipped beam is deflected downwards. This appears to reduce the quantity of reflected light.
As the density increases further you get to the point that, even with this technique, the amount of reflected lights from dipped beam is excessive. It is at this point that properly adjusted foglights, IMHO, can perhaps give better vision than the dipped headlights, because of this clearer layer effect. However the point at which this occurs requires the fog to be so dense that, quite frankly, the max safe speed attainable is less than 20mph. Probably better to be tucked up at home in front of the idiot box and not out in the thick of it.
However, and here is the point of contention, if the fog lights are adjusted so as to get this effect, the angle they have to be is aligned very slightly downwards, not much below horizontal as they have to be mounted low down to get into this clearer layer. If they are so aligned, then using them in conditions when it is not foggy, be it night or daylight, then causes excess dazzle to opposing drivers. If the lights are angled so as to prevent dazzle, then the distance they illuminate is so short that 10 mph is too fast.
In a past life we did real life tests on this because of the need, in rallying, to be able to ensure max vision in such conditions. Era when pace notes were banned for a time so you had to drive on what you could see. Tests on clear nights do not reproduce the effects, you have to go out on a claggy night as murky as possible.
The intended set up involved a set of wide beam fogs angled out to light up the edges of the forest track in going sideways as well as getting underneath the fog. Actually ended up finding two long range spots and two wider set driving lights (spots but wider beam) as of more use, but that is totally irrelevant to the conversation here.
As a result of these tests, despite what others say, I'm totally convinced of the general uselessness of such lights as fitted to cars today. Thats my opinion and no one will shift it, but I accept that others will differ, and thats fine too. It just seems, rather like the motorbikes on main beam 24/7 argument, that some individuals are adopting a technique, be it for fashion or making themselves more conspicuous, which can be extremely selfish.
If they want to make their vehicles more visible by use of extra light, then dipped heads are the answer when the conditions are clear, be it day or night. Headlights are, of course, subject to regulation concerning positioning and alignment, also checked at testing time.
Sorry for going on a bit, hope that's clear.
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FiF
I would go along with what you say, in that fog lights are positioned low so that they do not throw dazzle back at driver level.
However, if I have read the previous posts correctly it is illegal to use fog lamps on their own, so the dazzle from the headlights is going to cancel out the advantage of the foglights?
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No Brian it is not illegal to use foglights on their own in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
Seriously reduced visibility is generally taken to mean, according Highway code etc., when the visibility is reduced to less than 100 metres.
Clearly it is illegal to use them in conditions of better visibility when,
1) they are on their own
2) they are on with dipped headlights.
However it is legal to use them in conjunction with main beam as long as wired to extinguish when dipped beam is selected.
My additional point is that the point when they potentially become effective, and here it really is a very subjective opinion, is when visibility is a long long way below the 100m mark.
Hope that clears up the position.
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FiF
Yep, thanks.
I'd put the effective range of foglamps at about 30/40 yards in fog and 80/90 yards in snow.
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I'd put the effective range of foglamps at about 30/40 yards in fog and 80/90 yards in snow.
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Brian,
Would tend to agree there, roughly roughly.
So if one dials those figures into stopping distances, and considering the conditions, what does one get as the max safe speed?
In clear night time condition UMIST research suggests that the stopping distance at 30 mph is increased from the Highway Code 23 m to just under 29m. That is for young observers.
For poor weather conditions, older, tired observers under sustained effort the distance increases further for each of these conditions. Also increased by the affluence of incohol but lets not go there.
So I submit that my 20 mph max figure agrees with the published research, even though mine was arrived at rather empirically and quite some time ago. Also the foglights were far superior in light output and beam control (Oscars & Hellas) to the cheapo stuff fitted these days.
I'm sure someone could come up with a figure for 80/90 yds in snow and arrive at a speed. How does it go, dry distance * 2 for wet, * 2 again for ice and snow, or ...??
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" ... The Sun throws out far more light than any fog ... " ???
True though your statement may be Watcher, I don't look directly at the sun when I'm driving. And do you turn your front fog lights off when you are following other traffic? Oncoming traffic can easily see several of you with normal lights, and they driver in front, who is much closer than the oncoming traffic when it first sees you, is definitely going to be dazzled be your lights in his/her rear-view mirror.
GJD
PS I passed a Class 1 aviation medical four months ago - there's nothing wrong with my eyes.
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I can live with the foglights, it's cars and vans with only one headlight that I think are the real danger. It usually seems to be the offside light that fails, so you think there's a motorbike riding towards you in the dark.
Don't you just love these little lights for the valve caps!!! :-)
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And what about the people that appear to set one headlight high, so that even on dipped it is as high as most cars main beam ??
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You can never be sure the Luftwaffe's really gone, they're just being cautious.
I know these things................
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Personally I hate the morons who drive round with foglights on when not needed and wish the pigs would nick them more often instead of routinely searching me, dazzling other drivers causes accidents, think about that if you're one of the morons who 'likes to be seen' you want oncoming traffic on a wet single carriageway to have an accident at 60odd? Or maybe you want someone to rear end you in the rain because they can't see your brake lights? I flash the morons, that never works so I just switch to main beam, wait a second, then hit the spotlights as well if safe enough...
It would be a huge big help if the car makers wired the fog lights so they couldn't be used as well as headlights, by the time it's foggy enough for foglights, headlights are detrimental, have switching that lets you break the law by having fogs and dips on is ridiculous and practically invites Joe moron to dazzle everyone.
The actual law re foglights:
can only be used in seriously reduced visibility, fronts have to be mounted below a certain height (which I've forgotten) and must be angled 3% down.
It's illegal to have more than two dipped beam lights, no limit on main beams
I love the mirror idea, been wondering about what to do to main beamers behind me... I'll cobble something to the roof as I don't have a parcel shelf
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"The actual law re foglights:
can only be used in seriously reduced visibility, fronts have to be mounted below a certain height (which I've forgotten) and must be angled 3% down.
It's illegal to have more than two dipped beam lights, no limit on main beams"
Where did you get that from, smartifartfast?
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>>"dazzling other drivers causes accidents"
>>"I flash the morons, that never works so I just switch to main beam, wait a second, then hit the spotlights as well if safe enough..."
Well, if you're not part of the solution...
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Well surprisingly enough I occasionally travel the Leek-Buxton road (1000ft+ up Staffordshire/Derbyshire borders) late at night often in winter with rain or snow or mist and cloud. The road is very hilly so you are constantly going up and down rather steep hills. At times the drop in one side is very steep (00s of feet) so driving in bad weather is awful.
Up hills in falling snow or mist is awful. The beams reflect from driving snow and are pointing up in the air. Dipped headlamps and fog lamps are bad, main beam is impossible. Any speed greater than 20mph is asking to go off the road through not seeing bends in time - a slippery surface just makes it worse.
Downhill is not so bad as the lights are pointing down and there appears less light scatter.
Fog lamps in these conditions are great because being low mounted less light is scattered from the mist.
I agree foglamp usage is futile at any time where there is not thick fog or mist . I wear variable photochromic glasses which darken as light increases and even with that I find many motorbikes must have their headlamps on main beam - or are wrongly adjusted - as they can dazzle. The bikers are safer though with them on - at least they can be seen.
With modern electronics it is not beyond the wit of an enterprising electronics company to devise a sensor to measure visibility and warn when fog lamps should be switched on.. and to switch them off automaticaly as required.
As for flashing others in retailiation, well there is enough road rage around, some people appear to need anger management lessons and I don't want to endanger myself. Let alone cause an accident by blinding others.
(Nice thing about Fiestas is the fog lamps are mounted on the dash where they are easily visible and the controls are marked in such a way as to be intuitively obvious (to me at least!) so see which is which.)
In proper bad road conditions, I switch on foglamps, slow down and on motorways open my window.. judging by the maniacs who pass me I always worry about crashes in front... I supect that sensor I talked about should be linked to the ECU and restrict speeds as well:-)
madf
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Nice thing about Fiestas is the fog lamps are mounted on the dash where they are easily visible....
I have always thought Ford's were weird. Mine are mounted at the front and rear of the car :o)
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If we are not careful with this we will end up with asking Mark to generate a "Various Random Fog Light Rants mega thread" Might not be a bad idea for all that though we would fill up volumes I II & III pretty quickly.
I never cease to be amazed at what people get up to.
Last night followed a Saxo home for what seemed like forever. Clear night, damp roads & no street lights. OK so they didn't want to go fast fair enough, but on dip the whole way!
No opportunity to overtake until local knowledge gave a bit of an edge. Would have been earlier opportunities but lack of visibility prevented as too risky not knowing where the road goes.
Wondered why the Saxo still kept being flashed by opposing traffic.
Got past, found that whilst they didn't know where the dip/main beam switch was they'd managed to find the front fog light button. Not a baseball cap in sight, middle aged lady.
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If we are not careful with this we will end up with asking Mark to generate a "Various Random Fog Light Rants mega thread" Might not be a bad idea for all that though we would fill up volumes I II & III pretty quickly.
Same thought had occurred to me FiF
I never cease to be amazed at what people get up to.
Apart from the misuse of the fog lights, the one that always gets me is when someone catches up with me in fog then overtakes because they think I'm going too slow. Immediately they realise how far ahead they can't see and are faced with two choices. Either slow down to about the speed I was doing anyway, or, in a desperate bid to not look stupid, shoot off into the gloom far too fast regardless. Probably with their eyes closed trusting to luck.
Amazing how many hesitate briefly then chose the latter.
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I never cease to be amazed at what people get up to. Last night followed a Saxo home for what seemed like forever. Clear night, damp roads & no street lights. OK so they didn't want to go fast fair enough, but on dip the whole way! No opportunity to overtake until local knowledge gave a bit of an edge. Would have been earlier opportunities but lack of visibility prevented as too risky not knowing where the road goes.
I'm glad u mentioned this. This is the absolutely most irritating thing for me. Especially when ur in a strange part of the country and haven't a clue where the bends are - I've almost crashed a few times being caught by an unexpected bend while overtaking some geriatric pootler going 25 mph in the dark on DIPPED beams.
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madf: this is well OT but you reminded me of my rides from Keele to Buxton, along that road. Particularly the high spot of the ride, just past an army camp on the right, the steep hill up to and past the Roaches. My old Norton would be sent flat out up the hill, the aim being to get to the top in top! Never managed it: but maybe gave the wallabies a fright. Not much traffic then and easily disposed of. Dread to think what speed could be achieved now, on a suitable Ducati, if the run-in is still straight. Enough Pathe news for now....
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