when doing the IAM course ( I now observe for them) I was told not to exceed the speed limit' and also to overtake ' in the quickest and safest way'. There is a conflict obviously but in the days of speeds enforced by humans made sense to all but in a wildly OTT situation.
Trouble is that enforcement by robot leaves no room for common sense
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I was pulled by a bike cop a couple of years back for a chat about whether I exceeded the speed limit to overtake a car (A road with 50 limit).
Car I overtook was doing 40, and had been doing so despite a clear road for some time. Clear both ways, I knew the bike cop was behind, I mirror / signal / accelerate smoothly to no more than 53mph on my speedo, smoothly back in, bike cop overtakes and flags me.
He first said "bet you didn't know I was there", to which I said I DID know.
Then he asked if I knew what the speed limit on the road was, I replied "50"
He said, "well, you went over 60mph."
I said I didn't, my speedo indicated no more than 53mph during the manoeuver.
At that point he said, "Well, I know the driver was being slow but you need to be careful" and let me go.
So no, the limit is the limit (when there's enforcement nearby).
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Bit of science to add (physics or dynamics to be precise!)
If you find someone doing 57mph with no accelaration technically, and imagine there is 200m strech that is safe to overtake. For someone with good road sense, he or she has to exceed the speed limit for atleast 4 seconds , otherwise the vehicle will not be back to the legal 60mph at the end of the 200m after the overtaken path.
Sorry to over kill the topic, but I guess that is one of the reason why there is an allowance of 10% , so when it is safe - act safe and be safe !
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I thought the general advice given on advanced driving courses is to do your accelerating on the correct side of the road.
Drop back and time the manouevre so that you reach the maximum legal speed as you enter the braking distance threshold with the vehicle to be overtaken and if still safe to do so begin the overtake. If not, brake, drop back and try again when it's safe to do so. Dropping back normally offers the advantage of a better view of the road ahead too.
Exceeding the speed limit on the wrong side of the road presents some fairly serious dangers and puts other road users in a stressful situation with a much smaller reaction time than they would be planning for given the speed limit in force.
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Exceeding the speed limit on the wrong side of the road presents some fairly serious dangers and puts other road users in a stressful situation with a much smaller reaction time than they would be planning for given the speed limit in force.
No it doesn't - it's by far the most sensible and safe approach, legality aside.
When overtaking, you need to make sure your time exposed to danger - ie, on the wrong side of the road - is as small as it can possibly be. When I overtake, this means planting the peddle into the carpet which with 230bhp.. you get the idea. But it also means the overtake is completed often in just a couple of seconds.
There is nothing more ridiculous than dawdling past a 45mph caravan on the wrong side of the road at 59mph becuase 'thats the speed limit that is'.
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But being at the speed limit already at the start of the manouevre does just that - it limits the amount of time on the wrong side of the road whilst reducing the risks created from exceeding the speed limit.
Remember that not everyone has 230BHP to call on. For drivers with lower powered cars accelerating during the overtake is likely to take longer than simply carrying out the whole manouvre at the speed limit.
In your example above, with a speed differential of 15MPH the overtaking driver will be travelling just under seven metres per second faster than the vehicle being overtaken. Even with a big caravan, that's only three seconds.
This is how emergency service drivers are taught to overtake and it was covered I think in T Tom Topper's "Very Advanced Driving".
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This thread seems to have raised a few hackles (by the way what is a hackle?). It must be obvious that, according to the letter of the law if you travel at 71mph in a 70mph limit zone then you are breaking the law but I can't imagine any authority prosecuting such a transgression. If, however, you happen to be driving in North Wales, where the Chief Constable is waging war on drivers, the degree of lenience will be much smaller than in most other areas of the UK and you could well get fingered for overtaking a vehicle travelling at, say, 67mph by accelerating to 75mph for however long it takes to effect the manoeuvre (NumberCruncher might be able to advise us).
On a single carriage road with a speed limit of 60mph it would almost certainly be impossible to safely overtake a vehicle travelling at 57mph and to stay within the law.
Wouldn't it?
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This thread seems to have raised a few hackles (by the way what is a hackle?).
hackles ......... plural noun
The hairs on the back of some animals or the feathers on the back of the neck of some birds which rise when the animal or bird is frightened or about to fight.
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hackle, singular noun: the crest (I think red and a feather) worn on the beret of some proud Scottish regiment, the Black Watch perhaps...
Edited by Lud on 04/07/2008 at 16:20
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>> hackles ......... plural noun The hairs on the back of some animals or the feathers on the back of the neck of some birds which rise when the animal or bird is frightened or about to fight.
Compare snails, which have horns which do the exact opposite :)
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Compare snails
Have you ever seen snails fighting CP?
How could you tell they were fighting?
Did you manage to decipher what was happening in the blur of action?
Might become a new sport for late night TV on the back-end channels I was thinking.
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On a single carriage road with a speed limit of 60mph it would almost certainly be impossible to safely overtake a vehicle travelling at 57mph and to stay within the law. Wouldn't it?
But why would you want to overtake anyway, just to gain an extra 3 mph?
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Catch, Match and Dispatch - so dependent an traffic conditions the acceleration is done on the overtake. Once momentum is achieved alongside the vehicle being overtaken the accelerator can be eased to glide smoothly back to the correct side of the road.
Another to tip is once the vehicle being overtaken can be seen in the rearview mirror then you have achieved the best position to return to the correct side of the road.
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I thought the general advice given on advanced driving courses is to do your accelerating on the correct side of the road.
Good example of theoretical reading or teaching translates into possible mis-interpretation.
If I were asked to re-write it I would say,
"When overtaking make sure you stay on the wrong side of the road as little time as you can keeping in mind the safest speed and distance from the vehicle being overtaken and the on coming traffic and of course the road conditions".
Thankfully, in UK and mainland EU, the drivers rarely step on the gas when they see they are being overtaken !. In Japan and US, that is simply not the case!
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Good example of theoretical reading or teaching translates into possible mis-interpretation.
The theory given here makes good sense to me:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycod...4
162-169: Overtaking
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The problem with this is it means you must make many failed runups only to find it isn't safe to progress, the road ahead isn't clear etc etc before finally getting the opportunity.
Whereas if you've got a quick enough car you can simply go as soon as the scenario presents itself without wasting time sitting on the correct side of the road 100 yards back from the car you want to overtake, gathering speed by which time the gap has gone.
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Right, MUST NOT means legally enforced and DO NOT means a cop can stop you for not obeying and give you warning and could still let you go.
Still there is no mention of speed limit in both MUST Not and DO nots.
snipquote
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/07/2008 at 14:52
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I thought the general advice given on advanced driving courses is to do your accelerating on the correct side of the road.
I'm not sure about that. Roadcraft has a chapter on overtaking. The "overtaking position" is described as "generally closer than the following position", and the procedure described suggests that you may spend some time in the overtaking position before an opportunity to overtake comes along. i.e. you won't do your accelerating until you've pulled out. [*]
I know Roadcraft is the Police handbook, but as a member of the general motoring public I've had it suggested as recommended reading by a traffic officer and an advance driving instructor, so I guess it's regarded as relevant to normal people too.
[*] Naturally, the book also contains all the advice on how to judge whether and when this is safe.
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I thought the general advice given on advanced driving courses is to do your accelerating on the correct side of the road.
I would agree with most parts of that.
1) It is certainly very sensible to start your overtake from a reasonable distance behind the overtakee, and to begin to catch them up before you reach the point on the road at which the overtake can proceed. This makes an additional mockery of the amount of tailgaters you see on the road.
2) It also makes sense to already have as great a speed differential between you and the overtakee as safely possible when you move out, as it will reduce the time spent on the wrong side of the road.
My one proviso would be this: I would not stop accelerating when I move out. Acceleration during the overtake is almost as useful in reducing the time on the wrong side of the road as acceleration before is.
I continue accelerating basically until I am safely back on the right side of the road.
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Drop back and time the manouevre so that you reach the maximum legal speed as you enter the braking distance threshold with the vehicle to be overtaken and if still safe to do so begin the overtake. If not brake drop back and try again when it's safe to do so. Dropping back normally offers the advantage of a better view of the road ahead too.
All well and good, but unfortunatley the reality of driving these days is that anyone behind you will assume that you don't want to overtake the car in front of you if you drop back, because most people don't know how to overtake properly. You therefore end up being overtaken by other cars who then fill the gap between you and the slower vehicle, and so on. End result is you never get the chance to overtake.
I'm not saying it's right, but that's how most idiots drive these days, if you're not right up someone's trumpet then everyone else behind you thinks you're happy tootling along at the slower speed too.
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All well and good but unfortunatley the reality of driving these days is that anyone behind you will assume that you don't want to overtake the car in front of you if you drop back because most people don't know how to overtake properly.
Is the answer to this that as soon as we decide we wish to overtake, we should be indicating right?
Rather than waiting until the opportunity arrives (or not doing it at all as a lot seem to do)
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Is the answer to this that as soon as we decide we wish to overtake we should be indicating right?
I think that might be a tad excessive. Even on a road you know to be generally suitable for overtaking, you may not actually get an opportunity for some time due to oncoming traffic or other hazards. Leaving a signal one for that time only risks other people misinterpreting your intention as the situation changes (signalling right can mean I intend to move out to overtake, but it can mean lots of other things too) or other people deciding that you've just flicked your indicator on by mistake and haven't noticed.
Rather than waiting until the opportunity arrives
Can't see a problem with that. The opportunity presumably hasn't taken you by surprise. You see it coming, you can signal just before you move out if that's what you deem appropriate.
(or not doing it at all as a lot seem to do)
Generally a bad idea I'd have thought.
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Generally a bad idea I'd have thought.
Yeah, you're probably right. It's just something that came to mind the other day when I observed several people who indicated as they pulled out. It seems that a lot of people drive like it's a competition, and don't want to indicate in case someone else gets an advantage from it.
I went to the logical furthest point, but it's probably equally wrong.
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I hate it when plod looks you in the eye and tells a lie like that. I think it's to see how out of control you are. Probably part of the training. Very bad for the social climate, and cynical too.
This is in answer to craig's post above. It has appeared in the wrong place from the view flat point of view.
Edited by Lud on 04/07/2008 at 00:19
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